A Deep Dive On mRNA Vaccines

Mito

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“Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines were the focus of a symposium on COVID-19 vaccines held during last week’s COVID-19 and Cancer virtual meeting of the American Association for Cancer Research. To date, only two vaccines have received Emergency Use Authorization by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and both are mRNA vaccines—one developed by Moderna and the other by Pfizer and BioNTech.

Speaking on development of the Moderna vaccine was Randall N. Hyer, M.D., Ph.D., the company’s senior vice president of global medical affairs. Michela Locci, Ph.D., assistant professor of microbiology at the University of Pennsylvania, presented on the ability of mRNA vaccines to elicit potent germinal center (GC) responses associated with neutralizing antibody generation. This was followed by a lively Q&A session moderated by Deepta Bhattacharya, Ph.D., a member of the cancer biology program at the University of Arizona Cancer Center.

Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine development program utilizes an advanced mRNA technology platform also being used to develop other medicines and vaccines, says Hyer. The approach uses DNA to make mRNA that instructs cells to make a harmless piece of the spike protein found on the surface of the virus, triggering an immune response and the production of antibodies.

The vaccine does not alter DNA, he says. It also does not signal for nuclear access or reverse transcription. It contains no adjuvant at all, says Hyer. Rather, the vaccine appears to trigger the innate immune system.

At the lymph node, B cells (derived from the bone marrow) and T (thymus) cells interact with the spike protein and develop an adaptive immune response, he explains. Once the mRNA and protein it produces have done their job, they degrade after a day or two.

The vaccine has been produced in large quantity and formulated with lipid nanoparticles that are 100 nanometers in diameter, Hyer continues. In animal models, it demonstrated robust COVID-19 neutralizing antibody response and prevented the replication of the virus in the airways.”

“An advantage of vaccine delivery via lipid nanoparticles, relative to traditional approaches, may be that mRNA expresses the full-length spike protein and is a “natural process in the antigen-presenting cell,” says Hyer. The mRNA platform endeavors to “mimic natural infection processes, so I assume that has something to do with triggering innate response and other aspects of the immune system.”
 

Vileplume

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When phrased this way, as having no adjuvant and triggering the innate immune system, the mrna vaccine clearly does not sound as harmful as other vaccines. But this is coming from Moderna's senior vice president. Curious what others think about these statements?
 

gaze

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how can they tell if it does or doesn't signal reverse transcription? also the nanoparticle delivery system is a cause for concern imo
 

tankasnowgod

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. The mRNA platform endeavors to “mimic natural infection processes, so I assume that has something to do with triggering innate response and other aspects of the immune system.”

Mimic natural infection processes? Sooo, then why wouldn't you just wait to catch the "virus" out in the wild? Then it WILL be the natural infection process, not some artificial rehearsal.

And that way, you'd have natural defenses, like it having to pass through sinuses or digestive tract, or what have you. Seems a lot more dangerous to just inject it into your veins and hope for the best! Even when they spin it positively, it still seems like an insane process, when you actually think about it.
 

Peater

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I remember reading there was something dodgy about the polyethylene glycol used in them
 
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Mito

Mito

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how can they tell if it does or doesn't signal reverse transcription?
It seems very unlikely since the mRNA probably can’t get to the correct location within the cell and probably doesn’t have the specific transcriptase enzyme it would need.

 

Vileplume

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It seems very unlikely since the mRNA probably can’t get to the correct location within the cell and probably doesn’t have the specific transcriptase enzyme it would need.

If reverse transcription doesn’t appear too likely, what are the major threats of the mRNA vaccine?
 

tankasnowgod

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It seems very unlikely since the mRNA probably can’t get to the correct location within the cell and probably doesn’t have the specific transcriptase enzyme it would need.


Seems very unlikely according to what? The 6 months or so of trials they've done with this technology? The hypothesis put forward by big pharmaceutical companies that stand to make both a financial and literal killing (with no liability)?

There is a lot of "probablys" in there, but even if this particular side effect doesn't happen, and is indeed zero percent chance, you're still signing up for large scale genetic experiment with zero recourse.
 

RealNeat

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Mimic natural infection processes? Sooo, then why wouldn't you just wait to catch the "virus" out in the wild? Then it WILL be the natural infection process, not some artificial rehearsal.

And that way, you'd have natural defenses, like it having to pass through sinuses or digestive tract, or what have you. Seems a lot more dangerous to just inject it into your veins and hope for the best! Even when they spin it positively, it still seems like an insane process, when you actually think about it.

yeah but if you get the whole virus it's gnarly man made nano lipid encased S protein won't get a chance to tickle your genes through intramuscular injection.




01:21:46 - Question: why would a virus want to invade a cell?

 

LucyL

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I asked James Shapiro about the possibility of reverse transcriptase and he said it was not impossible. See this thread (MRNA Vaccine Compendium) In this situation, non-zero is not good enough.

Another consideration:

I don't think it is a good idea to take the word of the company invested in reaping the profit.
 

LucyL

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It seems very unlikely since the mRNA probably can’t get to the correct location within the cell and probably doesn’t have the specific transcriptase enzyme it would need.

"There is no plausible way that mRNA vaccines are going to alter your DNA. It would violate basically everything we know about cell biology. "

That's hilarious. I've been a follower of Ray Peat long enough to see that there is a lot of question about everything they know about cell biology.
 

RealNeat

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"The short version: There is no plausible way that mRNA vaccines are going to alter your DNA. It would violate basically everything we know about cell biology. ".

Since "violating" current biological dogma is Rays hobby, I'll heed his warnings. It's curious to me that an mRNA Vax that wasn't safe or effective before, suddenly becomes safe and effective "just in time". It almost goes against everything we know about biology... oh and science.
 

RealNeat

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"There is no plausible way that mRNA vaccines are going to alter your DNA. It would violate basically everything we know about cell biology. "

That's hilarious. I've been a follower of Ray Peat long enough to see that there is a lot of question about everything they know about cell biology.
Exactly I just posted something similar. Ray bashed on Fauci on the newest ORN interview for holding these outdated beliefs on the cell. It's worth listening to.
 

Perry Staltic

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If reverse transcription doesn’t appear too likely, what are the major threats of the mRNA vaccine?

"Unlikely" is an opinion. The gene therapy technology (manufacturer's words) has never been tested for its ability to modify DNA. It's being tested right now on a guinea pig population.
 
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Mito

Mito

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"The short version: There is no plausible way that mRNA vaccines are going to alter your DNA. It would violate basically everything we know about cell biology. ".

Since "violating" current biological dogma is Rays hobby, I'll heed his warnings. It's curious to me that an mRNA Vax that wasn't safe or effective before, suddenly becomes safe and effective "just in time". It almost goes against everything we know about biology... oh and science.
Doesn’t it seem likely that the genetics people have tried to get laboratory produced mRNA to change DNA?

“Another concern raised has been the idea that mRNA can somehow alter the host’s genome. That would actually be super cool and be huge for gene therapy (and I could finally give myself the giant bat wings I’ve always wanted) but this is not so. This is ordinarily impossible except if there is also a reverse transcriptase enzyme present that produces DNA from the RNA template, which is how retroviruses work. There is no such risk with any mRNA vaccine candidate. mRNA vaccines act entirely within the cytosol of the cell- they do not go near the nucleus where all the DNA is. That’s actually a major advantage of RNA-based vaccines over DNA ones.”
 

Tarmander

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You just have to remember, these people already have teams working on their tactical response to if the vaccine rollout goes wrong
 

schultz

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"There is no plausible way that mRNA vaccines are going to alter your DNA. It would violate basically everything we know about cell biology. "

That's hilarious. I've been a follower of Ray Peat long enough to see that there is a lot of question about everything they know about cell biology.

I, too, thought this was amusing. There is a lot we do not know about cell biology.

Doesn’t it seem likely that the genetics people have tried to get laboratory produced mRNA to change DNA?

“Another concern raised has been the idea that mRNA can somehow alter the host’s genome. That would actually be super cool and be huge for gene therapy (and I could finally give myself the giant bat wings I’ve always wanted) but this is not so. This is ordinarily impossible except if there is also a reverse transcriptase enzyme present that produces DNA from the RNA template, which is how retroviruses work. There is no such risk with any mRNA vaccine candidate. mRNA vaccines act entirely within the cytosol of the cell- they do not go near the nucleus where all the DNA is. That’s actually a major advantage of RNA-based vaccines over DNA ones.”

I think if they tried to use it for gene therapy it would be unpredictable and therefore not useful. It might cause harm to an organism.

The virus itself doesn't need to have reverse transcriptase enzymes present as we already have our own. The study below mentions that cytokines can induce LINE-1.


It contains no adjuvant at all, says Hyer.

I do believe the lipid nanoparticles are cationic and would therefore be very likely to act as adjuvants considering postively charged nanolipids seem to always cause damage. Mr. Hyer would know that though I would assume, so he is being dishonest.

 
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Mito

Mito

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I, too, thought this was amusing. There is a lot we do not know about cell biology.



I think if they tried to use it for gene therapy it would be unpredictable and therefore not useful. It might cause harm to an organism.

The virus itself doesn't need to have reverse transcriptase enzymes present as we already have our own. The study below mentions that cytokines can induce LINE-1.




I do believe the lipid nanoparticles are cationic and would therefore be very likely to act as adjuvants considering postively charged nanolipids seem to always cause damage. Mr. Hyer would know that though I would assume, so he is being dishonest.

Agreed it would be unpredictable and dangerous but that’s not how the genetics people think which makes it difficult to believe they haven’t tried it.

Doesn’t that paper suggest the the virus is capable of reverse transcription even if you just catch the virus (and not just via an mRNA vaccine)?
 

Giraffe

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Doesn’t it seem likely that the genetics people have tried to get laboratory produced mRNA to change DNA?
There is a German cell biologist who discussed the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. IIRC she said that the vaccines do contain traces of DNA. She said that this was mentioned in official papers. This happens because the mRNA is made from DNA, and if the process was not completed there is DNA left in the batch.

Another thing she said was... The stuff used for research is manufactured in relatively small amounts in the lab, with processes that are suitable only for small amounts, and It's very pure. For higher output (as in mass vaccination) the manufacturing processes are different, and they bring about their own impurities.
 
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