[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113343 So I just drop carbs around 100g a day and no too much cholesterol for now as you said.. Definitely drop calcium, buy some l carnitine and tyrosine is enough from meat? Glycine, zinc, p5p I already take.. Btw CFM 80% whey protein and butter is ok?

Avoid whey protein, they contain synthetic sources that deplete your B6 stores and if you are undermethylating then whey protein will be increasing histidine, glutamate and homocysteine as it does not contain the minerals to methylate.

Meat has plenty of tyrosine to replenish your kidneys and metabolism. Cholesterol is useless if ATP/methylation is low. ATP is central to gut metabolism and therefore effective metabolism of cholesterol sources. Add it in when you start methylating and your glutathione stores increase and kidneys become less calcified.

100g carbs sounds good to me. It's integral that you start working on intracellular magnesium to combine with your zinc and P5P.

One final anti-sugar point I'd like to add is that if a person's BMR is so low, the excess sugar will cause fatty liver and cause your adrenals to atrophy, and TSH will raise prolactin, which isn't pleasant. Because ketogenesis absolutely demands kidneys and adrenals up to the performance, the likelihood of high TRH induced prolactin is minimised, as long as your liver also steps up.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113199 s ahead of much more complex ones. The human body functions in enormously complex ways, and sometimes the simple explanations are not adequate. Because they are so complex, it is hard to be really confident about all the interactions that may be happening. Since the simple ideas do explain some stuff, they can be a good place to start, even if they are not the end of the story.

post 113248

post 113243 Also, the Ray Peat quote on saturated fat that no one wants to talk about:

"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism." - Ray Peat

There's no scientific dispute I know of that ketones increase ATP production.
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/veec ... ations.pdf

The controversy seems to arise over how best to consume nutritional ketones without ingesting PUFAs.

FWIW, Ray Peat agreed when asked. Not sure who Dewitt is but a quick search shows this post by "Dewitt" agreeing that, "Beta-hydroxy butyric acid is a superior fuel when compared with glucose due to its specific effects on cellular respiration":
http://beesandbutterflies.org/41468/can ... 808#a42808

Would using medium-chain triglyceride oil promote ketogenesis without having to enter nutritional ketosis? This is a claim the Bulletproof coffee guy always makes. I have a bunch of his MCT oil left over from those days, but I have been hesitant to use it, favoring whole coconut oil.

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113344

post 113343 So I just drop carbs around 100g a day and no too much cholesterol for now as you said.. Definitely drop calcium, buy some l carnitine and tyrosine is enough from meat? Glycine, zinc, p5p I already take.. Btw CFM 80% whey protein and butter is ok?

Avoid whey protein, they contain synthetic sources that deplete your B6 stores and if you are undermethylating then whey protein will be increasing histidine, glutamate and homocysteine as it does not contain the minerals to methylate.

Meat has plenty of tyrosine to replenish your kidneys and metabolism. Cholesterol is useless if ATP/methylation is low. ATP is central to gut metabolism and therefore effective metabolism of cholesterol sources. Add it in when you start methylating and your glutathione stores increase and kidneys become less calcified.

100g carbs sounds good to me. It's integral that you start working on intracellular magnesium to combine with your zinc and P5P.

I have pure CFM whey powder without additives except some soy lecithin.. Btw what meat we talking about here and why you eat on keto diet lean meat? It Doesn't makes sense to me.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

What doesn't make sense is that we have spent so long discussing then you ask me why I eat lean meat.

You don't need whey if you eat meat. Most important is to restart your methylation and boost glutathione.

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113348 What doesn't make sense is that we have spent so long discussing then you ask me why I eat lean meat.

What is bad on animal fat if it's mostly saturated? Your "stone age diet" doesn't include animal fat? lol

 

[Wilfrid]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113343 So I just drop carbs around 100g a day and no too much cholesterol for now as you said.. Definitely drop calcium, buy some l carnitine and tyrosine is enough from meat? Glycine, zinc, p5p I already take.. Btw CFM 80% whey protein and butter is ok?

Avoid whey protein, they contain synthetic sources that deplete your B6 stores and if you are undermethylating then whey protein will be increasing histidine, glutamate and homocysteine as it does not contain the minerals to methylate.

Meat has plenty of tyrosine to replenish your kidneys and metabolism. Cholesterol is useless if ATP/methylation is low. ATP is central to gut metabolism and therefore effective metabolism of cholesterol sources. Add it in when you start methylating and your glutathione stores increase and kidneys become less calcified.

100g carbs sounds good to me. It's integral that you start working on intracellular magnesium to combine with your zinc and P5P.

[highlight=yellow]One final anti-sugar point I'd like to add is that if a person's BMR is so low, the excess sugar will cause fatty liver and cause your adrenals to atrophy[/highlight], and TSH will raise prolactin, which isn't pleasant. Because ketogenesis absolutely demands kidneys and adrenals up to the performance, the likelihood of high TRH induced prolactin is minimised, as long as your liver also steps up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, adrenal atrophy occurs when there is a deficiency of ACTH secretion,right? And you consider that since one of ACTH chief antagonists is insulin, better to stay away from excess sugar? And better using fats as to promote gluconeogenesis?
Since ACTH chief synergists are epinephrine, cortisol, corticosterone, histamine, STH (fat metabolism), to an extent even psychic trauma (!), and if we might also consider that few of its physiological functions are to mobilizes and increase oxidation of free fatty acids, stimulates growth hormone release, do you think that this strategy is valuable in the long run?

You did not response to my post above about Gilbert N. Ling and the " ionic pump " mainstream theory. :) I really want to know your stand on it.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113363

post 113343 So I just drop carbs around 100g a day and no too much cholesterol for now as you said.. Definitely drop calcium, buy some l carnitine and tyrosine is enough from meat? Glycine, zinc, p5p I already take.. Btw CFM 80% whey protein and butter is ok?

Avoid whey protein, they contain synthetic sources that deplete your B6 stores and if you are undermethylating then whey protein will be increasing histidine, glutamate and homocysteine as it does not contain the minerals to methylate.

Meat has plenty of tyrosine to replenish your kidneys and metabolism. Cholesterol is useless if ATP/methylation is low. ATP is central to gut metabolism and therefore effective metabolism of cholesterol sources. Add it in when you start methylating and your glutathione stores increase and kidneys become less calcified.

100g carbs sounds good to me. It's integral that you start working on intracellular magnesium to combine with your zinc and P5P.

[highlight=yellow]One final anti-sugar point I'd like to add is that if a person's BMR is so low, the excess sugar will cause fatty liver and cause your adrenals to atrophy[/highlight], and TSH will raise prolactin, which isn't pleasant. Because ketogenesis absolutely demands kidneys and adrenals up to the performance, the likelihood of high TRH induced prolactin is minimised, as long as your liver also steps up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, adrenal atrophy occurs when there is a deficiency of ACTH secretion,right? And you consider that since one of ACTH chief antagonists is insulin, better to stay away from excess sugar? And better using fats as to promote gluconeogenesis?

To promote ketogenesis, yes. Adrenal atrophy occurs either due to cortisol excess or glucose excess if BMR is very low. Prolactin accumulates due to the thyroid's repeated attempts to stimulate the adrenals that are put out of action by all the sugar. Prolactin directly, independent of ACTH, stimulates cortisol, ensuring atrophy.

 

[Giraffe]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113340 My diet is around 2000cals and the ratio is roughly:

50% protein/meat to provide nutrients for methylation, ketogenesis and aminos for the kidneys
30% carb veg to sustain stable blood sugar, includes nutrients vit A, vit C, and fibre to increase gut motility
20% glucose to limit fasting stress response and excess fatty acid liberation when ATP is unlikely to be generated, such as during the lactic acid post-exercise

Now I get confused. Your ketogenic diet is high carb/high protein? Low fat ? No MCT?

There is no vitamin A in vegetables (only beta-carotene).

 

[Wilfrid]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113368

post 113363

post 113343 So I just drop carbs around 100g a day and no too much cholesterol for now as you said.. Definitely drop calcium, buy some l carnitine and tyrosine is enough from meat? Glycine, zinc, p5p I already take.. Btw CFM 80% whey protein and butter is ok?

Avoid whey protein, they contain synthetic sources that deplete your B6 stores and if you are undermethylating then whey protein will be increasing histidine, glutamate and homocysteine as it does not contain the minerals to methylate.

Meat has plenty of tyrosine to replenish your kidneys and metabolism. Cholesterol is useless if ATP/methylation is low. ATP is central to gut metabolism and therefore effective metabolism of cholesterol sources. Add it in when you start methylating and your glutathione stores increase and kidneys become less calcified.

100g carbs sounds good to me. It's integral that you start working on intracellular magnesium to combine with your zinc and P5P.

[highlight=yellow]One final anti-sugar point I'd like to add is that if a person's BMR is so low, the excess sugar will cause fatty liver and cause your adrenals to atrophy[/highlight], and TSH will raise prolactin, which isn't pleasant. Because ketogenesis absolutely demands kidneys and adrenals up to the performance, the likelihood of high TRH induced prolactin is minimised, as long as your liver also steps up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, adrenal atrophy occurs when there is a deficiency of ACTH secretion,right? And you consider that since one of ACTH chief antagonists is insulin, better to stay away from excess sugar? And better using fats as to promote gluconeogenesis?

To promote ketogenesis, yes. Adrenal atrophy occurs either due to cortisol excess or glucose excess if BMR is very low. Prolactin accumulates due to the thyroid's repeated attempts to stimulate the adrenals that are put out of action by all the sugar. Prolactin directly, independent of ACTH, stimulates cortisol, ensuring atrophy.

But I thought that factors inhibiting release of cortisol were: high glucocorticoids, low ACTH, and low pituitary hormones.
And that factors stimulating release of cortisol were: glucagon, vasopressin, estrogens, stress and ACTH. I thought that ketogenesis was charaterized by glucagon release instead of insulin....but it seems that glucagon, much like prolactin, favors cortisol release and thus ensuring also adrenal atrophy,no? Also, fat metabolism, STH, epinephrine, norepinephrine, PTH are synergists to cortisol....
So if one want to avoid excess stimulation of cortisol by prolactin or by anything else, one has to be sure to keep ACTH low, among other thing, right? And one of major antagonists of cortisol is insulin,no?
To prevent adrenal atrophy, we have to ensure that ACTH is not suppress by sugar? But this same sugar can protect us for cortisol excess due to prolactin secretion?

 

[Agent207]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

My diet is around 2000cals and the ratio is roughly:

50% protein/meat to provide nutrients for methylation, ketogenesis and aminos for the kidneys
30% carb veg to sustain stable blood sugar, includes nutrients vit A, vit C, and fibre to increase gut motility
20% glucose to limit fasting stress response and excess fatty acid liberation when ATP is unlikely to be generated, such as during the lactic acid post-exercise

Hi, I find a diet that high in protein highly inefficient. 50% protein?? above 1,5gr/kg I see no point on taking more (except using AAS for bodybuilding purposes), it promotes neoglucogenesis and protein is a very dirty substrate to use as energy source.

Veg carbs doesn't count for energy; they are ok as garnish, some fiber, micronutrients and that but...as energy source?? They take more energy to be digested than that of they provide. Eat whatever you want of it but don't count them on the total caloric intake.

Looking at a diet like that, I see an EXTREMELY low BMR, even alarming taking into acount you put some kind of extra physical activity like HIIT.

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Exactly. He basically uses proteins as a carb source. This is not keto diet. Keto diet needs to be around 70% fat...

 

[CoolTweetPete]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113402 Exactly. He basically uses proteins as a carb source. This is not keto diet. Keto diet needs to be around 70% fat...

Agreed.. Kineticz, have you measured your ketone levels while following this eating pattern? I don't see how you're getting into ketosis with these macronutrient ratios. I was having to stay under 50g of total carb (including veg) to remain in nutritional ketosis for longer than a few hours while eating a cyclical ketogenic diet.

I am very interested in your ideas related to magnesium. I use Natural Calm magnesium dissolved in orange juice. Is this 'ionized' as the ones you recmomend? It says 'ionic magensium citrate' on the bottle. http://naturalvitality.com/natural-calm/

I have looked into trying to support methylation before when I heard about MTHFR mutations but nutrigenomics is incredibly complex. Have you been tested for single nucleotide polymorphisms related to your methylation? Dr. Ben Lynch has done great work in this field.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I hope my posts help someone, even just one person.

I cannot really argue as I've argued enough about this over my years. My advice is final for my situation. Now I must try to get my life back and build relationships.


Best regards

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113248

post 113243 Also, the Ray Peat quote on saturated fat that no one wants to talk about:

"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism." - Ray Peat

There's no scientific dispute I know of that ketones increase ATP production.
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/veec ... ations.pdf

The controversy seems to arise over how best to consume nutritional ketones without ingesting PUFAs.

FWIW, Ray Peat agreed when asked. Not sure who Dewitt is but a quick search shows this post by "Dewitt" agreeing that, "Beta-hydroxy butyric acid is a superior fuel when compared with glucose due to its specific effects on cellular respiration":
http://beesandbutterflies.org/41468/can ... 808#a42808

Would using medium-chain triglyceride oil promote ketogenesis without having to enter nutritional ketosis? This is a claim the Bulletproof coffee guy always makes. I have a bunch of his MCT oil left over from those days, but I have been hesitant to use it, favoring whole coconut oil.

The long-term studies done over the last fifty years say that consuming medium chain triglycerides does increase ketones at least in sufficient amounts (80-120 grams a day). About half of coconut oil is medium chain triglycerides. You might tell if any amount you're taking is creating ketones with urine test strips.

More info here:
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/veec ... 01_241.pdf
http://www.jbc.org/content/259/1/231.long
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/Cahi ... 202003.pdf

 

[CoolTweetPete]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113466

post 113248

post 113243 Also, the Ray Peat quote on saturated fat that no one wants to talk about:

"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism." - Ray Peat

There's no scientific dispute I know of that ketones increase ATP production.
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/veec ... ations.pdf

The controversy seems to arise over how best to consume nutritional ketones without ingesting PUFAs.

FWIW, Ray Peat agreed when asked. Not sure who Dewitt is but a quick search shows this post by "Dewitt" agreeing that, "Beta-hydroxy butyric acid is a superior fuel when compared with glucose due to its specific effects on cellular respiration":
http://beesandbutterflies.org/41468/can ... 808#a42808

Would using medium-chain triglyceride oil promote ketogenesis without having to enter nutritional ketosis? This is a claim the Bulletproof coffee guy always makes. I have a bunch of his MCT oil left over from those days, but I have been hesitant to use it, favoring whole coconut oil.

The long-term studies done over the last fifty years say that consuming medium chain triglycerides does increase ketones at least in sufficient amounts (80-120 grams a day). About half of coconut oil is medium chain triglycerides. You might tell if any amount you're taking is creating ketones with urine test strips.

More info here:
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/veec ... 01_241.pdf
http://www.jbc.org/content/259/1/231.long
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/Cahi ... 202003.pdf

Thanks, Brandon. I'll definitely order up some strips and see what I see.

 

[extremecheddar]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I hope my posts help someone, even just one person.

I cannot really argue as I've argued enough about this over my years. My advice is final for my situation. Now I must try to get my life back and build relationships.


Best regards

What brand glutathione and EFA Oil do you use? How much and how often do you take of the EFA oils?

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Just had a PM from a member

"i felt better almost immediately after taking the magnesium. Very warm, relaxed, and brain fog free. Thanks, going to bed"

I advised that magnesium is so important to keep calcium out. Taken with Vit K2 and a simple Phospholipid exchange makes the effect even more pronounced in me. A good supply of ATP to the brain increases neurotransmitters, since neurotransmitters cannot function without a molecule of ATP.

Taking magnesium has produced the same result as if I take transdermal DHEA in me.

Sides have awakened I never knew existed, so I want to go out and explore. Combining Dr Sarah Myhill's website with Ray's is like bliss. The sleep continues to be 12 hours, I was very deprived.

I just take a tablespoon of organic hemp oil and a teaspoon of sunflower oil, with the magnesium and P5P. I tried the cod liver oil the other day to compare, and I felt blocked up and enraged.

Any brand of liposomal glutathione will be effective as they're all so expensive to produce.

 

[halken]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Derp.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

This is strictly anecodtal, but I took some P5P with a high dose of ionized magnesium before bed (usually does give me some stomach discomfort but did not) and I feel I slept very well. So much so I missed my first alarm completely.

Will continue to experiment with this idea. Thanks, kineticz.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113600 Just had a PM from a member

"i felt better almost immediately after taking the magnesium. Very warm, relaxed, and brain fog free. Thanks, going to bed"

I advised that magnesium is so important to keep calcium out. Taken with Vit K2 and a simple Phospholipid exchange makes the effect even more pronounced in me. A good supply of ATP to the brain increases neurotransmitters, since neurotransmitters cannot function without a molecule of ATP.

Taking magnesium has produced the same result as if I take transdermal DHEA in me.

Sides have awakened I never knew existed, so I want to go out and explore. Combining Dr Sarah Myhill's website with Ray's is like bliss. The sleep continues to be 12 hours, I was very deprived.

I just take a tablespoon of organic hemp oil and a teaspoon of sunflower oil, with the magnesium and P5P. I tried the cod liver oil the other day to compare, and I felt blocked up and enraged.

Any brand of liposomal glutathione will be effective as they're all so expensive to produce.

I have liposomal glutathione from my Bulletproof Diet days. I got scared out of taking it because someone told me taking it reduces endogenous production of glutathione. Is this a concern?

I always got a great mental edge from it, but like you said, stuff is super expensive.