[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[DaveFoster]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

What about P5P capsules taken with the magnesium?

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113233 What about P5P capsules taken with the magnesium?

Capsules are fine. Again without the ionised mag, b vitamins have trouble converting, as phosphate/calcium imbalances in the kidneys prevent b vitamin absorption.

 

[michael94]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I ordered some of the ionized magnesium and p5p as well. I'll report back later this week with how I get along. What dose of each would you recommend?

And will any of the phospholipid exchanges on that page work equally well? Which do you use specifically?

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113217 and four drops of ionised magnesium in some filter water

My chemistry education is regretably deficient, so I could have this wrong, but I thought that if you dissolved a magnesium salt in water it would dissociate and you'd get some ionised magnesium in there? How do they make this special ionised magnesium you speak of?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I'm just gonna throw this in here before I get around the TLDR:

"Optimally, the energy content of fat and protein should not matter, because they are not used for energy production."

"The problem with the whole calorie thing is that this unit is used for physical energy which doesn't translate to biological energy in the form of ATP. Protein and carbohydrates have the same calorie content, but protein utilization provides less ATP than carbohydrates. Fat has more calories than carbohydrates but provides much less ATP. The ATP that glucose delivers can be greatly reduced during lactic acid fermentation, but the supposed calorie content stays the same. It doesn't make much sense to use the calorie unit in this context."

"It would take way too long to get into this, but it seems like beta-oxidation of fatty acids leads to an inefficient coupling between electron and proton fluxes. It was known for a long time that fat oxidation speeds up the respiration of cells and increases their oxygen consumption beyond necessary levels to maintain ATP production. This points toward an inefficient metabolism."

"I don't think it's that unlikely. Think about other occasions in which the cells lose their efficiency. For example, during lactic acid fermentation the cells only produce 7-20% the amount of ATP than they would during oxidation. I don't know if there's actually a study that shows how much ATP exactly is generated, so we can't be sure. But I don't think it matters anyway. There are too many things that are wrong with fat oxidation, other than the ATP production."

- Dewitt (smart guy and former user of the former peatarian.com forum)

http://beesandbutterflies.org/20877/nee ... n-calories

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Also, the Ray Peat quote on saturated fat that no one wants to talk about:

"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism." - Ray Peat

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I'm surprised magnesium hasn't been the first thing to try for some people given it's central to metabolism and keeping calcium out.

Anyone who tries the Mag/P5P combo PM me how you get on.

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113243 Also, the Ray Peat quote on saturated fat that no one wants to talk about:

"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism." - Ray Peat

I think this is a relevant quote. It may be that some people will do better with a bit more saturated fat than others, but it seems to point to ideally using carbs for a good part of our basic fuel when possible.

post 113230 At best the focus on PUFAs is trivial.

It may be that there are crises when there are higher priorities, but I find Peat's writing on this subject very persuasive, and as far as I can tell evidence-based. Have you read his articles on fats? What about Haidut's many threads with further studies on PUFAs? Accumulation of PUFAs seems to be implicated in many degenerative conditions. This may not show up in the first 6 months, but further down the track.

post 113230 We are not super complex people really, we have four main organs. That's it. The type of fuel you consume really is just about adrenaline.

You can take a simple view by just looking at it from one angle. We all do this sometimes just to be able to think about it and take action. But I tend to take a sceptical approach to any one who claims that they understand it all and it really all is that simple. Peat offers a somewhat simplifying paradigm for thinking about how the body works, but he also describes a lot of complex interactions, and frequently refers to the need for more study to understand various aspects or possible interventions better.

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113243 Also, the Ray Peat quote on saturated fat that no one wants to talk about:

"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism." - Ray Peat

There's no scientific dispute I know of that ketones increase ATP production.
http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/veec ... ations.pdf

The controversy seems to arise over how best to consume nutritional ketones without ingesting PUFAs.

FWIW, Ray Peat agreed when asked. Not sure who Dewitt is but a quick search shows this post by "Dewitt" agreeing that, "Beta-hydroxy butyric acid is a superior fuel when compared with glucose due to its specific effects on cellular respiration":
http://beesandbutterflies.org/41468/can ... 808#a42808

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113245 I'm surprised magnesium hasn't been the first thing to try for some people given it's central to metabolism and keeping calcium out.

Lots of people here do pay attention to getting magnesium, either from oral or transdermal supplements or from food. There are quite a few testimonies to it's usefulness, and quite a bit of discussion about different forms. Peat makes the point that low thyroid function can make it hard to retain magnesium in cells. He sometimes recommends green broth, he drinks a lot of coffee himself as one of his sources, and he's suggested eating enough NaCl to help retain it. He's sometimes sometimes supplementing it specifically with thyroid supps (eg 100mg Mg) when people get particular reactions because under some circumstances the thyroid supp can cause rapid uptake of magnesium from blood into muscle, and leave it problematically low in the blood. Not everyone has got around to trying it yet. I'd recommend anyone who is struggling and who hasn't yet attended to magnesium to try it, possibly in more than one form if the first one isn't helpful.

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113248 The controversy seems to arise over how best to consume nutritional ketones without ingesting PUFAs.

Good as ketones themselves may be, I though the potential problem went beyond PUFAs and into the difficulty in producing ketones without causing other stress processes.

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113250

post 113248 The controversy seems to arise over how best to consume nutritional ketones without ingesting PUFAs.

Good as ketones themselves may be, I though the potential problem went beyond PUFAs and into the difficulty in producing ketones without causing other stress processes.

Yes, it may be stressful to synthesize them endogenously. But consuming exogenous ketones, for example in coconut oil, reduces stress by conserving glycogen for when it's needed. Ray Peat gives the example (in his Coconut Oil article) of how when eating coconut oil, he can feel hungry without having low blood sugar.

 

[NathanK]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

This past summer I revisited my old labs from low carbing. I was shocked to see that my kidney function was barely passing and my doc didn't even say. My B12 was at bottom range as well. I researched a little and my kidneys were almost at fibrotic stage. I wouldn't have even noticed except that this summer after over a year of Peating my kidney numbers greatly shifted more positively. My homocysteine I tested for the first time this summer and was higher than Id like at around 10.

Kineticz, by your explanation this doesn't really fall into your definition of over or undermethylator. What do you make of that?

Btw, while low carbing I thought I was "adrenal fatigued" and have felt much better on higher carb. I do think that my BP has gone up mildly while my t cholesterol and ldl has dropped substantially.

 

[Dizzryda]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Kineticz, IF one wanted to start this tomorrow how would he or she go about it? It is a lot of information. What does your ketogenic menu look like? It sounds like it's rather low in fat with the lean meat. Does it matter where you get the sugar? And why doesn't the added sugar prevent ketogenisis? How many smoothies should one be doing? How do we know the efas will be directed to the brain? What you're stating sounds reasonable. Any answers are appreciated.

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113277 Kineticz, IF one wanted to start this tomorrow how would he or she go about it? It is a lot of information. What does your ketogenic menu look like? It sounds like it's rather low in fat with the lean meat. Does it matter where you get the sugar? And why doesn't the added sugar prevent ketogenisis? How many smoothies should one be doing? How do we know the efas will be directed to the brain? What you're stating sounds reasonable. Any answers are appreciated.

kineticz Thx for really good information.. Now I can se how for example my "copper dysregulation" is just a small part of whole picture.. from what I learn from you now. Low fat (20g a day) is a bad idea, eating lots of calcium is also bad idea.. Btw what about MSM(organic sulfur) It is also very important for methylation right? Also you said take vit D. What about vitA and what ratio with vitD. ? And how much dietary cholesterol do we(brain) need? So I will stop this low fat thing. I will reduce calcium(cooked broccoli, spinach and can of sardines couple times per week are ok?). I already take zinc(btw how much is ok?), p5p, magnesium, 5g of glycine a day + buy some L carnitine..

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Kineticz btw high phosphorus with low calcium in this meat,eggs,veggies and dairy free diet is not a problem?

 

[Wilfrid]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

@kineticz
You wrote about ionic pump.
Do you think that the work of Gilbert N. Ling is flawed and if so, could you please tell me why?

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113249

post 113245 I'm surprised magnesium hasn't been the first thing to try for some people given it's central to metabolism and keeping calcium out.

Lots of people here do pay attention to getting magnesium, either from oral or transdermal supplements or from food. There are quite a few testimonies to it's usefulness, and quite a bit of discussion about different forms. Peat makes the point that low thyroid function can make it hard to retain magnesium in cells. He sometimes recommends green broth, he drinks a lot of coffee himself as one of his sources, and he's suggested eating enough NaCl to help retain it. He's sometimes sometimes supplementing it specifically with thyroid supps (eg 100mg Mg) when people get particular reactions because under some circumstances the thyroid supp can cause rapid uptake of magnesium from blood into muscle, and leave it problematically low in the blood. Not everyone has got around to trying it yet. I'd recommend anyone who is struggling and who hasn't yet attended to magnesium to try it, possibly in more than one form if the first one isn't helpful.

Yes, but they also consume enormous amounts of calcium from dairy and egg shells.. Which doesn't make any sense for hypothyroid people...

 

[YuraCZ]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I used to suffer from the nausea you describe, but no longer. I take 10 mg B6 (pyridoxine HCL sublingually administered) every day; I'd imagine this is adequate. I don't have access to bath water, so ionized magnesium in water or what about magnesium oil? This is just magnesium chloride and water, so it should work the same, or maybe just some magnesium chloride flakes mixed with water would be cheaper and exactly the same, such as these.

Magnesium chloride is a good source of magnesium especially for transdermal use. + chloride is needed for digestion.. I was drinking all the time maybe 10g a day, but I was also eating lots of calcium.. Now I must break this "calcium shell" with 100g of magnesium chloride in the bath every day..

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113258 My homocysteine I tested for the first time this summer and was higher than Id like at around 10.

Kineticz, by your explanation this doesn't really fall into your definition of over or undermethylator. What do you make of that?

High homocysteine means you are undermethylating. As explained, most of methylation needs high ATP ion pumps and is found in meat, not carbs.