[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

For whatever reason my being in a good mood for once has made it sound like a sales pitch. I'm trying to help.

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113117 So to kickstart methylation you renew your inevitably toxic brain cells, and take a very small amount of select mitochondrial nutrients. Works for me.

Your powers of proprioception remain incredible. :)

I imagine there are many things that could be going on.

post 113117 I restored TSH by a ketogenic diet to yield increased ATP.

Did you happen to simultaneously increase your calorie consumption above deprivation levels? IIRC, earlier in the year you were struggling to eat even 2000 cals for a while there, which could be expected to keep thyroid function suppressed. Eventually you noticed how much more energy you had when you ate more sugar (fructose?).

You are apparently in the early stages of your current high-fat experiment. There are many people who felt great for the first few months or a year on high-fat diets. A number of them are a lot less happy after two years, and then have a job to re-adapt the body to plenty of carbs again.

5% of calories as PUFAs would amount to 10-20grams for most people. I think this is more than Peat considers optimal, and even those researchers who are convinced that there is such a thing as EFAs seem to think the requirements are quite a bit lower than that.

post 113159 Because one of the most important symptoms, correlations, or perhaps causes of metabolic disease is when your cell membranes become more unsaturated over time.

:1

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I am sure I have put forward a cohesive argument and once again I am responded to by Peat paradigms. I have answers for all your comments but I am disappointed we cannot discuss ketogenesis that doesn't conclude with excess sugar consumption. People are not all coming out with beaming smiles by consuming so many calories aimlessly.

You have a good memory so you will also remember when I came back and reported that methylation vastly improved my energy levels. Since then my research has expanded.

Discuss methylation instead. There are people here looking for alternatives, and you spew out the same stuff they already tried. Instead of understanding anything you have very easily jumped back on the bandwagon.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Cod liver oil makes me irritable and depressed. Deffo blocks respiration. All the Peat effects I have said multiple times I agree with regarding PUFAs. The point I raise is the lack of context on this forum regarding regulation and maintenance of cellular energy.

I have tried high carb, low carb, all the usual protocols. Now that I have combined them all I am getting unrivaled increases in wellbeing with carbs kept below 100grams. So no issues with lactic acid or weight gain. Excess carb intake might protect the cells but very haphazardly - while risking fatty liver and insulin resistance.

The phospholipid exchange clears my brain fog and makes me feel very good combined with the magnesium. My respiratory system has opened up. Cell membranes exist, liver toxicity exists. You have to renew your cell membranes. Sugar does not renew membranes. It just prevents further risk of oxidative stress and defective enzyme bundles.

I have again said several times, conveniently ignored, nothing new, that sugar IS useful for boosting LDL cholesterol and limiting the stress response.

Instead of consuming 100gs of fructose and putting on 15kg in a month, I have gone back to ketogenesis meat based diet with glucose around exercise and bed, along with sodium. Sugar cravings are due to neurotransmitter deficiency. So the 'wellbeing' people report from carbs can just as easily be said to cover up neurotransmitter deficiencies.

I am losing weight, my skin and hair look fantastic. I also take lysine, P5P, cascara sagrada, T4. I switched from diet coke (aspartate, phosphorus, aluminium) to caffeine bottle energy drinks for the morning and exercise due to haidut's studies in opening up the 5AR pathways.

"So, it is probably true that in many cases the liquid unsaturated oils do increase "membrane fluidity," but it is now clear that in at least some of those cases the "fluidity" corresponds to the chaos of a damaged cell protein structure. (N. V. Gorbunov, "Effect of structural modification of membrane proteins on lipid-protein interactions in the human erythrocyte membrane," Bull. Exp. Biol. & Med. 116(11), 1364-67. 1993."

Hardly a convincing conclusion now is it. Wildly open to misinterpretation and no context.

Probably true... in many cases... in at least some cases. Yes totally convinced. Now where did I put that fructose...

 

[michael94]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113165 I am sure I have put forward a cohesive argument and once again I am responded to by Peat paradigms. I have answers for all your comments but I am disappointed we cannot discuss ketogenesis that doesn't conclude with excess sugar consumption. People are not all coming out with beaming smiles by consuming so many calories aimlessly.

I enjoyed reading through your long post.

Personally I have no desire to live on a ketogenic diet really because I just feel much nicer on a high carb diet and respond to it pretty well. *Reading your last post, this may be due to other factors and not the macronutrient profile of my diet. Anyway, I eat lots of oj, sugared low fat milk and coffee, white bread, potatoes, salt and a good bit of coconut oil, so you know where I'm coming from. I attempted doing a moderate sugar super high coconut oil diet for a bit but there was just too much resistance to getting the coconut oil down and it was no fun. I do eat plenty of muscle meat balanced with gelatin as well.

Now, you are definitely onto something regarding ketones and ATP production. My experience with low carb does seem to be high in energy however I never felt...grounded.. for lack of a better word. On high sugar/moderate starch I can engage social situations better and am generally less anxious. But again, back to what I said in the last paragraph at the *.

I have some questions.

1. What about hormonal associations with filled liver glycogen? Doesn't having low liver glycogen have negative implications for thyroid conversion and increase the effects of estrogen?

2. Intra-cellular magnesium I feel is something I've neglected. What do you use to make sure that is optimal ?

3 . Phospholipid exchange...interesting, definitely worth looking into and discussing more, however being on this forum I definitely have developed an aversion/bias against anything saying to intake pufa on purpose. I may try it sometime soon. No question for now.

4. I think many of us would do well to eat more pastured eggs ( us high carb people ). I think 5-6 egg yolks from a quality source would do much more good from the nutrients than whatever pufa concerns one has. Maybe not? What do you think? I'm not sure of the 6:3 ratio in those. How much choline should one be getting ideally?

Thank you I think this is a great discussion to have

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

There are many people who felt great for the first few months or a year on high-fat diets.

Eventually you noticed how much more energy you had when you ate more sugar (fructose?).

I never said a high fat diet. I said efficient use of fat.

I have had more energy, at the time, in various states of calorie intake and ratio. In itself this is not a good gauge for being the correct protocol. Fat burning, in the early states, you said yourself people report feeling good also. So your logic is void. "Feeling good" is driven by neurotransmitters.

Fat burning "feeling good" could be because ketogenesis is a highly efficient way of generating ATP to initiate methylation in the liver. Look at methylation cycle, to the left is dopamine and serotonin. The proper way to boost neurotransmitters. Meat is high in tyrosine, so perfect for sustaining your metabolism during ketogenesis. There is no tyrosine in sugar, it just inhibits the conversion of tyrosine to adrenaline.

Sugar "feeling good" is most likely due to false elevation of neurotransmitters in the beginning, or if you're lucky then after the masses of weight gain and fatty liver you might have protected your tyrosine so well that thyroid hormone improves, and cellular sensitivity to T3 is restored because you limited excessive fatty acid liberation for ages and prevented oxidative damage, which restored glutathione stores.

My view is that those who collapsed during ketogenesis actually just collapsed their methylation and glutathione stores, which raised cortisol, ammonia and angiotensin. So use sugar and sodium to prevent this, rather than sugar being the primary macro nutrient.

To put it eloquently, my thinking is that there is some substance behind combining the approaches so they compliment one another. Use sugar to protect tyrosine in the kidneys and liver, while improving methylation and cell performance to boost ketogenic fatty acid beta oxidation.

Renew cell membranes, prime them with magnesium and beta oxidation, and use sugar when fasting is expected, to protect your tyrosine.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

2. Intra-cellular magnesium I feel is something I've neglected. What do you use to make sure that is optimal ?

If I could give one takeaway piece of my advice it would be to make this first priority.

Without intracellular magnesium, calcium toxicity kills your cells, blood vessels, brain, kidneys.


Intracellular magnesium is more important than excess carbs/sugar for feeling grounded.

If magnesium both gains access to and is retained by cells, your NADH, P450, pregnenolone pumps are primed.

I use ionised magnesium droplets and magnesium bath salts. Try that first and if good results then try the phospholipid exchange to improve retention. Or try the phospholipid exchange first if you like.

These things are worth a try. Many people are happy to discover alternatives. I have done my best to combine the most supported aspects of several theories.

Methylation
Sugar v fat
pregnenolone/ACTH

= how these combine to make ATP with minimum oxidative stress

 

[cantstoppeating]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113167
...
I have again said several times, conveniently ignored, nothing new, that sugar IS useful for boosting LDL cholesterol and limiting the stress response.

Instead of consuming 100gs of fructose and putting on 15kg in a month, I have gone back to ketogenesis meat based diet with glucose around exercise and bed, along with sodium. Sugar cravings are due to neurotransmitter deficiency. So the 'wellbeing' people report from carbs can just as easily be said to cover up neurotransmitter deficiencies.

I am losing weight, my skin and hair look fantastic. I also take lysine, P5P, cascara sagrada, T4. I switched from diet coke (aspartate, phosphorus, aluminium) to caffeine bottle energy drinks for the morning and exercise due to haidut's studies.

...

For those of us in the trenches intelligently testing Peat's ideas with reliable feedback (bloodtests, temp/pulse, warmth of extremities etc), our perspective is much more nuanced than of those who remain at the conceptual phase spouting off general mechanistic statements e.g. "if you burn fat for too long you'll lose your ability to burn carbs".

The beneficial effects of using ketones as a fuel is very real and and Peat himself has said as such in so many ways. The waters get murky when we talk about about the physiological state that produces the ketones i.e. ketosis. Yet, the evidence that ketosis is beneficial (in a variety of ways) is hard to ignore.

 

[michael94]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113185

2. Intra-cellular magnesium I feel is something I've neglected. What do you use to make sure that is optimal ?

If I could give one takeaway piece of my advice it would be to make this first priority.

Without intracellular magnesium, calcium toxicity kills your cells, blood vessels, brain, kidneys.


Intracellular magnesium is more important than excess carbs/sugar for feeling grounded.

If magnesium both gains access to and is retained by cells, your NADH, P450, pregnenolone pumps are primed.

I use ionised magnesium droplets and magnesium bath salts. Try that first and if good results then try the phospholipid exchange to improve retention. Or try the phospholipid exchange first if you like. s

Cheers
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CWEHXH0/?tag=rapefo-20

Is that a suitable product? And how do you take the bath salts? Because I don't have a bath tub, only shower lol.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113190

post 113185

2. Intra-cellular magnesium I feel is something I've neglected. What do you use to make sure that is optimal ?

If I could give one takeaway piece of my advice it would be to make this first priority.

Without intracellular magnesium, calcium toxicity kills your cells, blood vessels, brain, kidneys.


Intracellular magnesium is more important than excess carbs/sugar for feeling grounded.

If magnesium both gains access to and is retained by cells, your NADH, P450, pregnenolone pumps are primed.

I use ionised magnesium droplets and magnesium bath salts. Try that first and if good results then try the phospholipid exchange to improve retention. Or try the phospholipid exchange first if you like. s

Cheers
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CWEHXH0/?tag=rapefo-20

Is that a suitable product? And how do you take the bath salts? Because I don't have a bath tub, only shower lol.

That's the product. Should be good enough to try the oral ionised mag alone.

No magnesium pumps, no ATP, no preg, no metabolism, high cortisol.

 

[cantstoppeating]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Glucose is often thought of as the most direct source of energy, but other substances are apparently used even more easily. "Ketones" (for example, alpha-keto- or hydroxy-butyrate) are used more easily, at least in some circumstances.

Short and medium chain fatty acids are used more easily than glucose, and it is apparently this fact which accounts for their presence in milk. Their effects on cells--induction of hormone receptors and other specialized cell functions, suppression of stress-induced enzymes, stimulation of energy production in fat cells, inhibition of cancer cell division and viral expression, etc. --are what we would expect of an ideal energy source.

https://www.facebook.com/thedannyroddyw ... =3&theater

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

You are posting things which apparently agree with me. I'm not sure what you are trying to assert though.

 

[cantstoppeating]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113196 You are posting things which apparently agree with me. I'm not sure what you are trying to assert though.

Only the first paragraph of my first post, quoting you, is addressed to you. The rest of my posts are showing a broader and more nuanced perspective of ketones for the benefit of Agent207 and others.

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113165 I am sure I have put forward a cohesive argument and once again I am responded to by Peat paradigms. I have answers for all your comments but I am disappointed we cannot discuss ketogenesis that doesn't conclude with excess sugar consumption. People are not all coming out with beaming smiles by consuming so many calories aimlessly.

post 113165There are people here looking for alternatives, and you spew out the same stuff they already tried. Instead of understanding anything you have very easily jumped back on the bandwagon.

This is the Ray Peat Forum. You don't have to agree with Peat. But posting about Ray Peat's ideas is in keeping with the purposes of this forum. Telling people off for doing so is not.

post 113165 Discuss methylation instead.

I am sure you understand more about how methylation works than I do.
However, I do not have reason to share your confidence that you know exactly what is going on in your system and why you are feeling better. There are many possible explanations, and not all of them lead to long term improved health (though some of them might).

I have a tendency to want to consider simple explanations ahead of much more complex ones. The human body functions in enormously complex ways, and sometimes the simple explanations are not adequate. Because they are so complex, it is hard to be really confident about all the interactions that may be happening. Since the simple ideas do explain some stuff, they can be a good place to start, even if they are not the end of the story.

My own focus on calories does not come directly from Peat, though he does mention them occasionally in ways that I find consistent - eg IIRC he's said in one interview that 1500 cals as indicating low metabolism, and in another referred to 3000 as more normal. Since considering food quantities provides a much simpler explanation than yours, I'd be interested in how the facts (your calorie consumption) line up with it. You don't have to tell, of course. But I don't find your complex explanation compelling in the absence of simple information that would help assess simpler explanations.

When people who have been subsisting on an unusually low amount of food, it doesn't prove that there is nothing else going on besides energy deprivation. But it is well established that chronic undereating tends to reduce metabolism. So that seems to me to be an obvious first thing to check.

If my car stops, it might mean there is a particular complex mechanical fault. But I'm going to check/fill the fuel tank before I assume that.

post 113182 I never said a high fat diet. I said efficient use of fat.

Maybe I misunderstood. I understood you to be saying that you eat some sugar, but not particularly much, and are aiming to rely on more ketogenesis. I don't know how much sugar you are eating, but you seemed to be saying that 100g was excessive, so that's what I'm going by. I may not understand ketogenesis well - I understood it to involve the conversion of fat to ketones in the absence of adequate sugar to supply current fuel needs. If you are not eating much sugar, and not eating a high fat diet, does that mean a high protein diet, or a low calorie diet? High protein can produce some problematic by-products, and using it for fuel via gluconeogenesis is may be inefficient compared with just eating glucose in the first place. In those cases where very low calorie intake does not result in reduced metabolism, the alternative is catabolism. That causes trouble sooner or later too.
I may not be describing your situation, since I don't know enough about it at this level.

I am glad you are feeling well, and I hope it continues. I do think there are some differences in what our systems can manage, depending on past damage etc, so I'm not trying to convince you to leap back into something that you don't think has worked for you. (Though I don't see where you've given carb metabolism much of a go - maybe you did a good stint of it without recording here, or I've forgotten). I'm just not convinced on the evidence so far that everyone else will benefit from following your path of lowish carbs and added PUFAs. I do have the impression from Peat and many others including you that getting and retaining adequate magnesium is very important.

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113182 To put it eloquently, my thinking is that there is some substance behind combining the approaches so they compliment one another.

very eloquent, indeed. i saw benefits and negatives to my meat/veg/sat fat days that i do not see in my carb/meat days....just as my carb/meat days have benefits and negatives that i did not see in my meat/veg/sat fat days. One thing i have noticed over time is a natural progression of a combo of the two. I began seeing a general lowering of fruit and cane sugar carbs. I began seeing the introduction of more and more vegetables (though not excessive)....and i began seeing a solid appreciation for meats of all kinds. I began craving epsom baths (magnesium sulfate) like a mad man. I even, dare i say it, began craving pufa from certain foods and felt there was something beneficial about them. But one thing i seemed to get wrong the whole time was calcium excess....even though my mind questioned it many times....it was a convenient protein, something that made me feel like my diet was more interesting. Adherence to a faulty diet is not necessarily driven by dogma, it can also be part of our path in progressively understanding ourselves better and better. Sometimes we have variables in our lives which inhibit us from seeing the truth. For me, environmental stress has always shrouded the reality of things.

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113199 But it is well established that chronic undereating tends to reduce metabolism. So that seems to me to be an obvious first thing to check.

If my car stops, it might mean there is a particular complex mechanical fault. But I'm going to check/fill the fuel tank before I assume that.

very true. i attribute a large part of the unsuccess of my high protein days to calorie deficiency. but before long after i discovered Peat and Roddy, i had already made the assumption that the primary problem was a lack of carbs and too many stressful proteins. which it could have been that, too, but there were some simple things i should have evaluated first.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Without cell consistency, specifically brain cell, consistency, everything else is arbitrary.

You can rely on thyroid hormone to promote mitochondrial biogenesis, and use sugar to tie up fats, but that doesn't optimise the PUFA membranes that exist in the brain. It's fact. And poor brain ATP supply, via the myelin sheath, results in the increased propensity for the back-up system angiotensin in the liver, lungs and kidneys.

As soon as I started phospholipid exchanges, I warmed up all over, and whereas before magnesium would make me feel nauseous, it made all my arthritic pain go away and I slept deeply for 14 hours. My complexion became clear and smooth skinned. Do you remember I said to you a while ago I couldn't tolerate magnesium? Now I lap it up.

Cells are made of fat in a certain ratio. The wrong ratio, the cell wall becomes either too stiff or too jelly-like. They contain the ion pumps, and mitochondria. The action of cells is very simple. They generate ATP and pregnenolone via NADH. Entry of glutathione into cells is driven by preventing angiotensin and preventing the use of homocysteine for ammonia rather than glutathione, when sustained oxidative stress has worn your antioxidant out. Magnesium and P5P prevent angiotensin while phospholipids keep the brain permeable. Liposomal glutathione/choline renew your NADH. As said, NADH is the key to producing ATP and pregnenolone, so that your ion pumps can sustain your thyroid medication and increased calories.

Cells can however still create ATP when metabolism is very low but you are on a ketogenic high protein diet due to a forced beta oxidation state. It just puts strain on your kidneys to produce tyrosine and liver to keep toxic fats locked away.

I think this is the most efficient state, and sugar has it's place in aiding aforementioned strain on kidneys and liver.

Mitochondria DNA is specific to your mothers side. So it's not optimal, but a combined approach seems wise.

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113165 People are not all coming out with beaming smiles by consuming so many calories aimlessly.

I do think there is more to a good diet for most people than just consuming large quantities of sugar. And I agree that some people don't seem to do well on large amounts of fructose. Sometimes the system is so out of whack that it doesn't seem to be able to cope with it. There are a lot of other nutrients also needed.

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113204 Without cell consistency, specifically brain cell, consistency, everything else is arbitrary.

I agree that having the CNS cells functioning well is centrally important.

post 113204 You can rely on thyroid hormone to promote mitochondrial biogenesis, and use sugar to tie up fats, but that doesn't optimise the PUFA membranes that exist in the brain. It's fact.

Exactly what the facts are about optimal cell membrane composition continues to be contentious, as far as I can tell. I'm sure you've read the story about the Burrs and William Brown, and Peat's take on degeneration and PUFA.

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113200

post 113182 To put it eloquently, my thinking is that there is some substance behind combining the approaches so they compliment one another.

very eloquent, indeed. i saw benefits and negatives to my meat/veg/sat fat days that i do not see in my carb/meat days....just as my carb/meat days have benefits and negatives that i did not see in my meat/veg/sat fat days. One thing i have noticed over time is a natural progression of a combo of the two. I began seeing a general lowering of fruit and cane sugar carbs. I began seeing the introduction of more and more vegetables (though not excessive)....and i began seeing a solid appreciation for meats of all kinds. I began craving epsom baths (magnesium sulfate) like a mad man. I even, dare i say it, began craving pufa from certain foods and felt there was something beneficial about them. But one thing i seemed to get wrong the whole time was calcium excess....even though my mind questioned it many times....it was a convenient protein, something that made me feel like my diet was more interesting. Adherence to a faulty diet is not necessarily driven by dogma, it can also be part of our path in progressively understanding ourselves better and better. Sometimes we have variables in our lives which inhibit us from seeing the truth. For me, environmental stress has always shrouded the reality of things.

Hi have you stopped the milk now then