[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[DaveFoster]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112854 The most efficient way to produce ATP is ketogenesis if your body can sustain it.

Life is too short to spend so long reading conflicting information. I have done this for four years, spent £8,000, and the above advice combined with my high levels of education is the best advice I can give, and will certainly be spending no more time experimenting or researching,

But is ketogenesis sustainable? Is the body adapted to sustain ketogenesis or is it a short-term protocol to attenuate an environmental stressor that has resulted in a lack of available carbohydrate? You make some great points kineticz, and you make me question the Peat paradigm, but my eyes were always yellow when I did keto, and I felt low-energy, had no success in the gym, and my sleep was all but restorative.

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 113014

post 112854 The most efficient way to produce ATP is ketogenesis if your body can sustain it.

Life is too short to spend so long reading conflicting information. I have done this for four years, spent £8,000, and the above advice combined with my high levels of education is the best advice I can give, and will certainly be spending no more time experimenting or researching,

But is ketogenesis sustainable? Is the body adapted to sustain ketogenesis or is it a short-term protocol to attenuate an environmental stressor that has resulted in a lack of available carbohydrate? You make some great points kineticz, and you make me question the Peat paradigm, but my eyes were always yellow when I did keto, and I felt low-energy, had no success in the gym, and my sleep was all but restorative.

It is energy intensive but efficient. I seem to have got the balance right. The best thing for sleep isn't carbohydrate, it's intracellular magnesium. P5P is needed for magnesium entry. EFAs are needed to keep cell membranes permeable, along with sodium and potassium. Hence the importance of taking sodium and keeping cell membranes the right consistency and protected against the excess liberation of oxidized fatty acids by diligent use of carbohydrates and sugar around exercise and sleep. if sugar keeps you awake rather than asleep, you aren't burning enough fat. If you get the ratios right you don't need to rely on sugar so much and can metabolise fats.

Sugar is important to limit the stress response, I feel fats should be burned for oxidative metabolism. A fatty liver is not something to aspire to, nor is a fermenting gut or zinc deficiency. Sugar ensures that liver glutathione isn't excessively consumed when excessive fatty acids, unused for ATP, become rancid.

Keep your cell membranes happy, get the magnesium in, lock it with sodium. Excess calcium is caused by cortisol and de-energised cells, not by a lack of dietary calcium. Use sugar to limit possible oxidative stress from any fatty acids that exceed the ATP capacity of your mitochondria and deplete your liver.

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112847
I think theres no point on labelling diets wrong or optimal, lowcarb, highcarb, zero grain...

That's exactly what I'm NOT advising. I have suggested a combined approach where sugar limits fatty acid liberation and adrenal hormones, while promoting healthy ketogenesis and cell membrane ion pumps.

The heart is primarily a fat burner, and the brain is made up of EFAs, choline and cholesterol. Not protein or sugar.

I think that BMR should be sustained using ketogenesis. Sugar should be consumed during or after fasted states in order to throttle excessive use of the tyrosine-adrenaline pathway.

Henry Ford "Whether you think you can or cannot, you're right"

 

[Agent207]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

It is energy intensive but efficient. I seem to have got the balance right. The best thing for sleep isn't carbohydrate, it's intracellular magnesium. P5P is needed for magnesium entry. EFAs are needed to keep cell membranes permeable, along with sodium and potassium. Hence the importance of taking sodium and keeping cell membranes the right consistency and protected against the excess liberation of oxidized fatty acids by diligent use of carbohydrates and sugar around exercise and sleep. if sugar keeps you awake rather than asleep, you aren't burning enough fat. If you get the ratios right you don't need to rely on sugar so much and can metabolise fats.

How do you balance carbs? I see OK to use it around intense exercise, before during and after to soften stress response. You say you take them too around sleep, too? you mean before bed and for breakfast (fasted state)? How is your macro distribution, aprox?

 

[Dizzryda]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112813
I think all this is relevant enough to deserve its own thread....

I agree though I don't know how to do this. It would be interesting to hear many opinions on this (haidut, cantstoppeating, westsidepufas etc.)

 

[Agent207]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

[moderator edit: posts above moved from L-lysine - serotonin antagonist]

I open this thread as I've perceive this is a high overlooked subject, maybe because Peat's work oversimplification, leading to the assumption that fats as fuel has no point or relevance; but the more I research I find thinks are much more complex, and they rely in a ocean of variables. Circumstances and individual settings changes almost everything.

I think almost all here have clear the rol and benefits of sugar on diet on determined circunstances, like on stress. But lots of data point that fats as fuel for ATP production is something to evaluate too. Please lets try not relying on dogmas or ad-hominem arguments, nor battles of paleo/low carb vs. high carb... etc; but rather to try to put research in context and evaluate all the variables to take a better understanding on the use of fats as well as sugar for energy.

For instance, theres one user, kineticz, who reports to got improved metabolism and thyroid after relying more on fats than carbs for energy, through a better functioning mitochondria.

I'll open with this awesome article showing how from a biochemical point of view, ATP production from fat may be more efficient than glucose.

http://www.lucastafur.com/2011/05/bioenergetics_08.html

 

[Agent207]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

This subject is one of the most interesting things I've seen here discussed; I've seen very strong points in what kineticz is arguing, and himself a proof of metabolic healing under a more oriented ketogenic diet.

Once Peat said there may no exist such perfect macronutrient ratio for everyone, even 33/33/33 would be fine. I think ketogenesis may be good out of the extremes, i.e. very strict ketogenic at <50gr carbs. But out of the "stress scenario", maybe it won't be all about sugar.

I see a point in the idea of fats or sugars for ATP, depending on the individual needs. A extremely active athlete vs a sedentary or low activity one. I think is fair to think their needs won't be the same.

Since this is an off-topic to the lysine thread, I'll open a new thread where we can discuss about this.

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I open this thread as I've perceive this is a high overlooked subject, maybe because Peat's work oversimplification, leading to the assumption that fats as fuel has no point or relevance; but the more I research I find thinks are much more complex, and they rely in a ocean of variables. Circumstances and individual settings changes almost everything.

I think almost all here have clear the rol and benefits of sugar on diet on determined circunstances, like on stress. But lots of data point that fats as fuel for ATP production is something to evaluate too. Please lets try not relying on dogmas or ad-hominem arguments, nor battles of paleo/low carb vs. high carb... etc; but rather to try to put research in context and evaluate all the variables to take a better understanding on the use of fats as well as sugar for energy.

For instance, theres one user, kineticz, who reports to got improved metabolism and thyroid after relying more on fats than carbs for energy, through a better functioning mitochondria.

I'll open with this awesome article showing how from a biochemical point of view, ATP production from fat may be more efficient than glucose.

http://www.lucastafur.com/2011/05/bioenergetics_08.html

I think Ray Peat wrote many years ago (in one of his books if I recall) that ketones are what would we expect from an ideal source of energy. There's nothing new or complex about it that I can see.

When asked about ketones, he has questioned whether a ketogenic diet that requires the body to synthesize ketones is too stressful. He has also said in maybe email that in large quantities of fatty foods, and even in coconut oil, there would be considerable amounts of PUFAs.

The last I heard in an interview Ray Peat was experimenting with a fully saturated coconut oil (as am I).

Balancing fruit sugar and ketones is a topic that there's needs to be more research on, and it may depend on any number of variables. At least we can say that there have been long-running trials in which consuming a combination of ketones and fruit sugar has no adverse warnings.

 

[Agent207]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I don't see PUFAs to be a problem under a healthy food sources diet, while they are kept around 5% of total calories, and that can perectly been achieved even on high fat diet. I've read Peat at somewhere that percentage is very OK.

If ruling out main vegetable oils, I doubt pufa will be a problem taking into account other healthy fats like CO that protects against pufa, vitamin E, not accumulating fat... etc. Im the first of getting rid of pufas but lets not got obsessive at it for tiny amounts neither, specially when they come from healthy foods.. cheese, eggs, butter, coconut oil, avocados... etc.

 

[Amazoniac]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Agent, you're not alone. This is indeed an interesting topic. And we tend to extremes to feel unique and special, as if no one had access to this way of eating.
Some people here share the same doubts as you do, including me. It's not that simple and there are many variables involved. Don't be discouraged by one side of the story. I'll keep following as the discussion rolls. I can't give any opinion right now because I have more doubts than answers..

 

[Amazoniac]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

As I understood, you're more interested in discussing the efficiency of fats and carbs for energy production rather than ketones themselves. Ketones were just an example, right? Perhaps the title is misleading and people get defensive right from the start..

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

As I understood, you're more interested in discussing the efficiency of fats and carbs for energy production rather than ketones themselves. Ketones were just an example, right? Perhaps the title is misleading and people get defensive right from the start..

I hope I didn't seem to be defensive or critical. I consume as much in ketones as probably any human being on the planet. :) I was just aspiring to give (and perhaps failing) a very short recounting of what I recall about Ray Peat's views on ketones, which are all very positive except for his cautions as noted.

It's only ketones that have this long-known, and quite large advantage in ATP production. How you make the ketones is the interesting, and somewhat controversial part, whether by eating fat or starving yourself of carbs (or both).

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Ketogenesis directly produces acetyl coenzyme A and bypasses all the problems with glucose but due to it's requirement for fatty acids to generate ATP is highly reliant on a healthy liver, kidneys and the adrenal hormone adrenaline. What is adrenaline made out of? Tyrosine. What is thyroxine made out of? Tyrosine.

Because ketogenesis is extremely efficient but energy intensive, it relies on healthy liver methylation to mop up potential stray fatty acids that become damaged, and the adrenals and kidneys must sustain tyrosine and adrenaline in order to match the fat burning shuttle into ATP.

Hence I still support Ray's views on limiting PUFAs and using sugar, albeit diligently. Sugar is helpful to lighten the load of the adrenals in providing the fatty acids and ketones to generate ATP without becoming hypoadrenal and therefore hypothyroid.

There is nothing better than a ketogenic body using coconut oil for energy and healthy brain cell membranes retaining magnesium reducing any chance of angiotensin and cortisol raising blood sugar causing diabetes, alongside healthy kidneys retaining sodium and producing glycine and tyrosine.

Sugars job should be to protect overwork of the kidneys and adrenals so that tyrosine can be sustained, and such efficient burning of fats will work in combination with sugar reducing the risk of excessive fatty acid liberation causing oxidative stress.

Methylation occurs in the liver and is driven by several minerals and mostly by ATP.

It produces antioxidants and pro-heart nutrients such as creatine and carnitine. It renews cell DNA and encourages more DNA expression. Ray suggests that overmethylating is harmful due to excessive incomplete DNA.

But a person can, and more commonly does, undermethylate, resulting in increased angiotensin and cortisol. Lowered creatine and carnitine cause the heart to overwork as the kidneys and lungs angiotensin causes vasoconstriction and reduced oxygenated blood supply, so the liver has trouble clearing out toxins.

In this situation calcium and glutamate accumulate in the brain as it consumes 20% of the body's energy but only has 2% mitochondria to produce it's own energy. So the kidneys vasoconstrict and become damaged by the accumulation of calcium which is excitotoxic to cells.

Undermethylation is ultimately due to low ATP and high calcium toxicity, as with most degenerative diseases. Minerals like zinc, P5P, and magnesium are important for methylation.

But the most challenging is breaking the ATP stalemate where the kidneys and heart are overworked to supply energy to the glutamate in the brain, while the liver is stuck in the middle with a build up of toxins and a low overall metabolic rate which calcifies the kidneys, promoting kidney disease.

When brain ATP is low, the heart muscle stiffens and blood pressure rises. As kidney disease progresses, blood pressure falls.

The brain is priority 1 for the whole body because it consumes so much energy with very little of it's own ATP and glucose or ketone stores. The worse the situation is for brain energy supply, the slower methylation and detoxification becomes.

The liver completely bypasses producing glutathione and creatine etc because it needs the homocysteine protein to produce ammonia and raise angiotensin, which raises cortisol, which raises blood sugar directly to the brain, at great expense to all the other organs, and promotes insulin resistance.

So baring this in mind, it makes sense that improving the health of the brain ATP supply, which is supplied by the myelin sheath, will help the body to resume it's duties and lower calcium toxicity.

This is why I link to this: http://www.doctormyhill.co.uk/wiki/Phos ... d_exchange

Flush out the toxic cells in place of shiny new ones, which maximises the chance of retaining magnesium and getting ATP into the brain to lower glutamate, which raises GABA.

Methylation should get more interest on the forum. Ray always deconstructs the roles and is especially a fan of glycine, which is crucial to stimulate the transsulfuration and remethylation pathways, but he never directly refers to methylation due to the extreme argument that overmethylation is damaging. 80% of people are undermethylators and could benefit from increased methylation, as it drives heart performance and cell health. Antioxidants are not made internally without methylation.

Notice the bottom right hand corner. Cortisol diversion of the methylation pathways and the use of proteins. This happens primarily when there is an energy crisis in and to the brain. The heart performance reduces when liver performance reduces. The body then diverts protein synthesis to constrict supply in the lungs and kidneys to retain blood pressure to the brain.

Notice the arrow leading from ammonia in the kidneys to produce arginine and NO which haidut has made clear the adverse effects from.

It is also worth noting the decline of the G6PDH enzyme to the left in green that occurs when this cortisol pathway goes up. G6PDH is critical for the intracellular space to retain and recycle the antioxidant glutathione, and the function of NADH. This increases the health and longevity of red blood cells to provide richer oxygen and fuel to your organs to perform repairs and accept increases in metabolism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose-6 ... deficiency

Go down to the Pathophysiology section. A failure in this pathway can further contribute to calcification and kidney disease.

NADH is important for the side cleavage enzyme P450 to work, which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone. So methylation is absolutely crucial to our endeavours. Reducing angiotensin by improving the ATP supply to the brain increases the likelihood that NADH and P450 work to increase metabolism and limit cortisol.

Finally, It is also worth noting that there is low phenylphalanine to tyrosine, and low serine to glycine conversions found in kidney disease (calcium toxic kidneys). We all know how important tyrosine and glycine are.

Your kidneys are the bodys last resort to boost brain energy before kidney failure. It must be your first priority to reduce calcium toxicity and improve the health of your cell membranes/phospholipids, while limiting fatty acid liberation from the liver. Free roaming fatty acids quickly turn into oxidative stress if your ATP ion pumps are weak, hampering your chances of getting sodium and magnesium to stay into cells, and calcium to stay in bone.

My kidneys have thanked me since I added in the phospholipid exchange and ionised magnesium in the bath and before bed, along with 50mg P5P. I feel like my DHEA has gone up, indicating lowered parathyroid and vit D downregulation of excess calcium.

Prolonged adrenaline and cortisol maximise oxidative stress, which maximises your need to do a phospholipid exchange regularly until your kidneys heal and metabolism increases in the liver. You do not want your brain cell membranes to be made up of oxidized fatty acids from a burdened liver.

This is why I am not convinced that more calcium in milk etc is sensible, since in low ATP states calcium will ALWAYS be the body's way of energising and killing stressed and de-energised cells, along with glutamate. All you're doing by consuming calcium is docompensating your body's means of sustaining energy to the brain. A battle that is foolish to fight.

The issue with calcium is low ATP, and not really to do with parathyroid hormone. Parathyroid hormone and serotonin are a red herring, a downstream protective adaptation by the body to sustain kidney output. If you want to solve issues you should always go for the source, not tree branch symptoms.

So healing is not based around more calcium and lower serotonin, it is around boosting cell membranes, heart performance (the heart loves burning fats so taking l-carnitine (NOT acetyl carnitine) should help), brain energy supply and ATP, lowering aldosterone and increasing antioxidant reserves through lowering oxidative stress (excess free roaming glucose and fatty acids).

A weak liver means a weak heart, and poor condition cell membranes.
A weak heart means weak kidneys and calcification. Poor vascularity and endurance.
Calcification means high cortisol which atrophies everything, your thymus, pineal, blood vessels, cell respiration, testosterone production, adrenals, thyroid, everything.
Weak kidneys mean low glycine, low tyrosine, hypertension, poor sodium retention, high aldosterone, high ammonia, high arginine, and damaged, low energy red blood cells.

Since the brain is no1. priority, it should be worked on first. The brain is made up of fats. Some are the 'doomed' essential fatty acids, this cannot be avoided. The brain condition and supply, and the liver methylation, need more focus on this forum. I rarely see brain health mentioned, because fatty acids are viewed as so negative, like serotonin. The brain is one lump of fat and they are not all coconut oil I have to tell you. Coconut oil is just a fuel. Ray's views on fatty acids and methylation are potentially at great disadvantage to those attempting his otherwise very imperative views on limiting oxidative stress.

PUFAs are toxic to cell respiration, fair enough. But what he neglected to point out is that the brain contains and needs omega 6 and 3 in a particular ratio of 4 to 1. And as I have discussed at length, if the brain isn't happy, ALL ORGANS SLOW AND BECOME TOXIC. It is not made of glucose (lol) or saturated fat alone. It's made from EFA and choline. Unlike all other organs made from protein in the body, the brain is a lump of a variety of fats that need the right proportions to limit the chance of glutamate. It is more akin to a mass of cells rather than a typical organ such as the liver or heart.

An energised brain makes you more likely to break out of learned helplessness, which solves the serotonin issue.

The way I see the totality of problems is as a canti-lever of distribution of energy. More prolonged oxidative stress and glutathione depletion will shift towards angiotensin and cortisol. The heart will suffer as a result of the poor energy supply to the brain. Weak heart, weak brain, you suffer from degenerative diseases and you die early. Kidney disease patients can rely on dialysis to flush out the imbalance of electrolytes, phosphates, as a result of toxic liver undermethylation. The lungs, well, you just suffer from shortness of breath and low stamina in the gym but they rarely fail. All of this is due to a poor production and delivery of ATP to the brain in our toxic mass production world.

Methylation isn't something to take lightly as it affects DNA and RNA transcription. SAH will be high in undermethylators as it is greatly toxic and inhibitory to SAMe. Also, we need to take the focus off serotonin for a moment. Peat's context of serotonin does not apply to the methylation context.

I don't want us to directly alter methylation at least in the beginning. I have argued rather about the adaptive rerouting towards supporting cortisol and not antioxidants when cellular calcium and glutamate block ATP production. My view is that methylation is greatly hindered by angiotensin, and angiotensin is intensified when the brain (no other organ) is not getting enough ATP itself and enough quality red blood cells. Hence I mentioned earlier the G6PDH enzyme which recycles glutathione.

ATP goes up in the brain when the phospholipids that constitute the brain are the right consistency, and healthy red blood cells go up when the kidneys recover. So this is something that needs to be simultaneously addressed in order for methylation to start using cysteine for glutathione instead of ammonia, and cysteine to be remethylated to mitochondrial performance duties such as carnitine, norephiprene, etc at the top left of the chart I posted on the previous page.

Personally I wouldn't test anything. I would restore ATP to the brain, regularly do a phospholipid exchange, take magnesium and carnitine and get on with my life, as I have been doing with huge success. It is only with this great clarity I have been able to put together the extensive theories on the previous page.

The most clear markers for undermethylation would have to be high homocysteine and high serum B12. But the most relevant marker is persistently high cortisol. Even if cortisol shows as low, indicating advanced adrenal weakness, it still points to overstimulation of cortisol by angiotensin, hence severe undermethylation.

All methylation needs is for ATP to be in adundance. Then you add in methyl b-vitamins, magnesium and zinc. It can't methylate when cortisol is excessive and calcium is blocking up ion pumps and respiration.

And as I explained earlier, increasing G6PDH increases NADH, NADH increases P450, P450 increases pregnenolone, pregnenolone increases ATP and metabolism and lowers cortisol, which continues to lower calcium and glutamate. The liver methylation needs to produce glutathione for G6PDH to lock in and recycle glutathione.

So to kickstart methylation you renew your inevitably toxic brain cells, and take a very small amount of select mitochondrial nutrients. Works for me.

High pregnenolone, high ATP, high intracellular magnesium, sodium and potassium, high ATP to the healthy brain cells maintained by a healthy liver methylation. That solves all issues. Healthy methylation increases serotonin IN BALANCE WITH dopamine for ultimate calmness.

Healthy kidneys means increased vit D, DHEA, sodium, glycine, serine, tyrosine, to name a few.

Follow Ray's advice regarding limiting overconsumption of PUFAS but add the below phospholipid exchange protocol into your life. What I am trying to bring to the debate is some crucial context regarding perspective and balance about adaptive mechanisms in the body, mainly angiotensin.

All organs are made of protein. The brain is made of fat. And it isn't coconut oil.

The point isn't whether you are deficient in pufas, it's whether you specfically target the ratio of fats to renew brain cell membranes without the adverse effects of reducing cellular respiration. Healthy, clean brain cell membranes will reduce angiotensin, which reduces cortisol and calcium toxicity, providing relief to the heart and kidneys.

Only the brain needs the EFAs, otherwise it is still important to limit fatty acid liberation from the liver, in order to limit potential oxidative stress from the roaming fats that are not burned for ATP by poorly functioning mitochondria.

Phospholipid exchange clears my brain fog right up, along with 2000mg/day l-carnitine. Hemp oil itself has the closest ratio for brain cells.

Only when brain ATP is restored will the kidneys, heart and liver feel relief. Airways should open up, and anxiety should reduce.

Alcar is most often recommended by people who advise to increase the transport of burning of fats.

Actually, acetyl version of carnitine, I have read, and in my experience, is not the same as carnitine. Acetyl is primarily for the brain, whereas l-carnitine should burn fats and raise ATP in all the organs. Remember, ATP is crucial for the liver methylation, which, when angiotensin is reduced, will start producing the antioxidants glutathione again and remethylate homocysteine to produce heart-healthy nutrients such as more carnitine.

While alcar for the brain might sound good given what I've said, it is important to remember that ATP is provided sufficiently by the liver and heart, as the brain itself has a very limited capacity to produce and store ATP itself (consumes 20% but produces 2%) Most of the brain's ATP comes from having healthy myelin sheath and oxygenated blood, from healthy kidneys.

So we need the standard version of l-carnitine to boost ATP throughout the body.

The point of taking l-carnitine is that it's more effective in the liver and heart. Once methylation gets off the ground, carnitine is a by product, so the correct processes become self sustaining.

Acetyl carnitine makes me anxious, l-carnitine works very well. I was a little annoyed people recommend the acetyl version so often when it's actions are not the same in my experience.

My dietary calcium intake is negligible. Magnesium and mitochondrial output limit calcium and cortisol problems. I eat stone age meat and veg diet. Sugar, like the EFAs, should only be used strategically in my view, and only when your cells are efficiently producing ATP via ketogenesis, in order to prevent low blood sugar and increase LDL cholesterol for pregnenolone.

I have come to the conclusion that it is best to become a fat burner for ATP, but use sugar to limit ACTH and cortisol, which increases pregnenolone. Mitchondrial DNA is from your mothers side and I can say with some certainty my mother is NOT a sugar burner. I don't think you can alter DNA in this manner. So my diet is ketogenic. Sugar is also troublesome in relation to SIBO and fermentation generating lactic acid when your cells are very low in generating ATP.

I restored TSH by a ketogenic diet to yield increased ATP. Low ATP, whether regional or systemic, is the root of all degeneration. Ketogenesis blocks out all problems with glucose and lactic acid. Limit fatty acid liberation from the liver, efficiently burn the ones that are liberated to generate ATP, and keep cell membrane fats healthy. Use sugar sparingly only during incidences of increased stress on the adrenals.

As mentioned earlier, mitochondrial DNA is based on your mother. So it might be interesting to look back over her diet and how long she lived, body composition etc. I've done this with my mother and she's most suited to burning fats efficiently through a lower number of mitochondria.

Also, my grandmother had kidney failure, so I know that potentially some glucose enzymes I have inherited are deficient. The kidneys when weak will prefer a highly efficient ketogenic state and sodium retention over high cortisol and poor glucose control/insulin sensitivity any day.

The three nutrients most deficient in kidney disease are zinc, magnesium, selenium, zinc being crucial for insulin sensitivity. So if you have genetic kidney problems my view is that you will have insulin and therefore sugar problems. So I cut all that risk out with a ketogenic stone age diet.

What is set in stone is that fat burning is the most direct way of generating ATP. This is fact. The issues occur because fatty acids readily increase stress on the liver when unused for ATP.

But again I revert to my theory that while we should limit fatty acid liberation, the main issue is not whether to burn fats, it's whether our cells ARE ABLE TO burn fats EFFICIENTLY. The heart loves burning fats. Again this is fact.

Cell maintenance is performed by the process of methylation, driven by ATP. Methylation is diverted to ammonia when brain, and only brain, ATP is dwindling. Finally, high histamine is highly stimulatory to cortisol, and inhibitory to the effects/benefits of adrenaline. This can also factor into the calcium influx of undermethylation. Remethylation needs strong sodium potassium pumps.

Ketogenesis is energy intensive but efficient. I seem to have got the balance right. The best thing for sleep isn't carbohydrate, it's intracellular magnesium. P5P is needed for magnesium entry. EFAs are needed to keep cell membranes permeable, along with sodium and potassium. Hence the importance of taking sodium and keeping cell membranes the right consistency and protected against the excess liberation of oxidized fatty acids by diligent use of carbohydrates and sugar around exercise and sleep. if sugar keeps you awake rather than asleep, you aren't burning enough fat. If you get the ratios right you don't need to rely on sugar so much and can metabolise fats.

Sugar is important to limit the stress response, I feel fats should be burned for oxidative metabolism. A fatty liver is not something to aspire to, nor is a fermenting gut or zinc deficiency. Sugar ensures that liver glutathione isn't excessively consumed when excessive fatty acids, unused for ATP, become rancid.

Keep your cell membranes happy, get the magnesium in, lock it with sodium. Excess calcium is caused by cortisol and de-energised cells, not by a lack of dietary calcium. Use sugar to limit possible oxidative stress from any fatty acids that exceed the ATP capacity of your mitochondria and deplete your liver.

I have suggested a combined approach where sugar limits fatty acid liberation and adrenal hormones, while promoting healthy ketogenesis and cell membrane ion pumps.

The heart is primarily a fat burner, and the brain is made up of EFAs, choline and cholesterol. Not protein or sugar.

I think that BMR should be sustained using ketogenesis. Sugar should be consumed during or after fasted states in order to throttle excessive use of the tyrosine-adrenaline pathway.

 

[Tarmander]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I think the scientific discussion is interesting, and the theory can guide you on your diet choices, but at the end of the day it is all about experimentation. That is the whole point of this forum in my opinion; to guide you in your own experimentation.

I have done high fat as well as high carb and I can say high carb feels just so much better. This doesn't mean that fat does not have a place in your diet, or that you should just cut it out. I think long term super low fat can be tough to maintain, but I have done low fat experiments for a couple weeks at a time that yielded some good metabolic results. I will also add that fat cannot increase glycogen levels. For people who do not have adequate glycogen, everything can seem stressful, and I think that is at least part of why the low carbers do so poorly in the long term.

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113086 I don't see PUFAs to be a problem under a healthy food sources diet, while they are kept around 5% of total calories, and that can perectly been achieved even on high fat diet. I've read Peat at somewhere that percentage is very OK.

If ruling out main vegetable oils, I doubt pufa will be a problem taking into account other healthy fats like CO that protects against pufa, vitamin E, not accumulating fat... etc. Im the first of getting rid of pufas but lets not got obsessive at it for tiny amounts neither, specially when they come from healthy foods.. cheese, eggs, butter, coconut oil, avocados... etc.

The PUFAs are a separate issue unto themselves. Some PUFAs are metabolized by muscles at rest, perhaps 2 grams a day or so, and that amount of PUFAs is harmless enough, especially if you are a teenager in the peak of metabolic health.

As you begin to experience the effects of aging and degenerative disease, the accumulation of PUFA become more damaging. Perhaps surprisingly, if you calculate the PUFAs in "cheese, eggs, butter, coconut oil, avocados... etc." it quickly adds up to more than 5-10 grams a day, or the equivalent of a teaspoon of vegetable oil.

It may be safer to obtain the large quantities of ketones typically needed, which studies show can be 80-120 grams a day, from fully saturated sources.

 

[Amazoniac]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113115

As I understood, you're more interested in discussing the efficiency of fats and carbs for energy production rather than ketones themselves. Ketones were just an example, right? Perhaps the title is misleading and people get defensive right from the start..

I hope I didn't seem to be defensive or critical. I consume as much in ketones as probably any human being on the planet. :) I was just aspiring to give (and perhaps failing) a very short recounting of what I recall about Ray Peat's views on ketones, which are all very positive except for his cautions as noted.

It's only ketones that have this long-known, and quite large advantage in ATP production. How you make the ketones is the interesting, and somewhat controversial part, whether by eating fat or starving yourself of carbs (or both).

You didn't. I just sensed the sarcasm and irony coming to discourage the discussion, as if it was a closed case.
One interesting thing that I notice often is how rare it is to find highly energized people that rely more on fats. You can spot from distance those that eat mostly carbs: expansive, energetic, more unstable, fast reasoning and reflex, more emotional, and so on..
I know the idea of cost [of living this way] goes totally against Ray's work but that's something I wonder constantly..

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

One interesting thing that I notice often is how rare it is to find highly energized people that rely more on fats. .

You haven't met me.

The stressful effects of fat burning can be easily bypassed without consuming gallons of fruit juice or milk.

 

[Amazoniac]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113122

One interesting thing that I notice often is how rare it is to find highly energized people that rely more on fats. .

You haven't met me.

The stressful effects of fat burning can be easily bypassed without consuming gallons of fruit juice or milk.

I haven't because you're an exception. It's rare, isn't it?

 

[kineticz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113123

post 113122

One interesting thing that I notice often is how rare it is to find highly energized people that rely more on fats. .

You haven't met me.

The stressful effects of fat burning can be easily bypassed without consuming gallons of fruit juice or milk.

I haven't because you're an exception. It's rare, isn't it?

It's only rare because people seem to find solace and pride on pushing extremes while the general masses sit on the fence and don't try new things.

Has it ever occurred to them that they're all right, just ignorant to coalition? Story of our world isn't it.

 

[Fetch]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

the crash.

post 113127 Amazoniac wrote:
Source of the post
kineticz wrote:
Source of the post
Amazoniac wrote:
One interesting thing that I notice often is how rare it is to find highly energized people that rely more on fats. .


You haven't met me.

The stressful effects of fat burning can be easily bypassed without consuming gallons of fruit juice or milk.

I haven't because

I had great energy on high fat/ketogenic diet for about a year then I crashed. Maybe using sugar strategically would have slowed or prevented