Why Ray Recommends Eating Lots Of Calcium

[Amazoniac]

I'm often impressed by how people that eat intuitively develop some sort of sustainable system for them. Calcium products are readily available everywhere, if there's a trend that people are shying away from them and decreasing calcium consumption, there must be a good reason for it and it's not just a matter of forcing more calcium back in the diet.

Low-calcium diet prevents fructose-induced hyperinsulinemia and ameliorates the response to glucose load in rats

"The progressive increase in intake of high-fructose corn syrup is related to the rise in the consumption of soft drinks, for which it is the main sweetener (e.g., [11]). One other major consequence of the increased intake of sweetened soft drinks is the displacement of milk from the diet [12]. Milk is an important source of calcium, so its disappearance from the diet has exacerbated suboptimal calcium intakes [12, 13]. Calcium deficiency leads to impaired insulin release in experimental animals, and there are indications that the same is true for humans [14, 15, 16]; decreases in circulating levels of both calcium and vitamin D are associated with changes in glucose homeostasis [17, 18, 19]. Thus, calcium and sugar intake, and their homeostasis are intertwined; however, little is known about how calcium status influences the regulation of metabolism under conditions of sugar overconsumption.

We investigated whether the combination of a high-fructose diet along with marginally inadequate calcium might have combined detrimental influences on glucose metabolism. To this end, we compared the metabolic profiles of rats fed diets with the carbohydrate provided either as a standard mixture of cornstarch and sucrose or as fructose, and with the calcium provided either at replete or marginally deficient levels. We found that relative to calcium-replete controls, rats fed low-calcium diet had improved insulin sensitivity and did not develop hyperinsulinemia when fed the high-fructose diet."​

There is no doubt these guys were after the headlines since they could've used starch and sucrose (instead of a combination of both and fructose alone) with much more subtle effects, yet perhaps still present. But the main point is that calcium restriction helped their insulin function when under stress:

"The results demonstrate that fructose-induced hyperinsulinemia and impaired glucose tolerance depend on calcium status: In line with earlier work, plasma insulin concentrations and blood glucose levels in response to a glucose load were markedly elevated in calcium-replete rats fed fructose relative to those fed a standard starch-and-sucrose mixture [10]. These effects of fructose feeding were strongly attenuated in rats that received a low-calcium diet. However, fasting glucose levels in fructose-fed rats were not improved by low-calcium feeding. Thus, eating a low-calcium diet significantly alleviated but did not abolish the effects of fructose feeding on glucose handling.

Relative to the calcium-replete fructose-fed rats, the calcium-deficient fructose-fed rats had lower glycemia in response to a glucose load despite a smaller rise in insulin levels. This implies that the response to insulin is less affected by fructose overfeeding under conditions of calcium deficiency. The drop in blood glucose levels in response to insulin injection was larger in rats that received the low-calcium version than calcium-replete version of the AIN-93G diet. This points towards increased insulin sensitivity of the peripheral tissues under conditions of calcium deficiency.

There are at least two plausible mechanisms by which calcium deficiency could influence insulin sensitivity. One involves the activation of insulin receptor expression by high levels of circulating 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3 [27, 28, 29]. An increase in levels of 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3 is a classic effect of calcium deficiency, and it has been observed with the low-calcium diet used here (i.e., AIN25 diet; [30, 31]). Activation of insulin receptor expression through 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3 action would counteract the suppression of insulin receptor responsiveness that is exerted by fructose feeding [32]. The other plausible mechanism involves activation of the osteoblast-specific factor, osteocalcin. Levels of circulating osteocalcin, including the active uncarboxylated form, increase when rats are fed low-calcium diets [33, 34]. This improves insulin sensitivity in adipose tissue and liver [35]. Consistent with this, injections of osteocalcin improve insulin sensitivity in mice fed high-fat diet, which is a metabolic challenge comparable in some of its effects to fructose feeding [36].

Enhanced insulin sensitivity mediated through the action 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3 and/or osteocalcin may have emerged as an adaptation to conditions when dietary sources of calcium are scarce in order to overcome the secretory deficiency of pancreatic beta-cells induced by low calcium levels.

Reduced fasting insulin levels in rats fed low-calcium diets, and hampered glucose-induced hyperinsulinemia in fructose-fed rats receiving low-calcium diets, is consistent with the effect of dietary calcium deficiency to interfere with insulin release [14, 15]. Glucose-induced hyperinsulinemia in fructose feeding may have also been ameliorated by what appears to be improved insulin sensitivity in calcium deficiency: Exaggerated insulin release in fructose feeding is thought to be a compensatory response to the development of insulin resistance in the periphery and thus could potentially be prevented if insulin sensitivity is maintained [6]."
​

No doubt this is a short-term measure with costly long-term consequences, but I doubt it's just an accident or solely because of anti-dairy campaigns.
If you have clients that are avoiding calcium out of intuition, don't encourage more consumption right away before addressing what led them to decrease their intake. A generalized vit D deficiency should definitely be considered.

All is full of love, you have to trust it.

 

[theLaw]

@haidut

Any ideas on how to dissolve eggshell calcium to reduce intestinal irritation?

Thanks!

 

[Amazoniac]

@haidut

Any ideas on how to dissolve eggshell calcium to reduce intestinal irritation?

Thanks!

*tough structural proteid
I think Dan tried something similar.

 

[Amazoniac]

Calcium in evolutionary perspective | The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition | Oxford Academic

"[..]several factors operated jointly to accelerate the diminution in human stature. These included a general decrease in dietary protein, increased frequency of nutritional stress (ie, periodic food shortages up to and including famine), more exposure to epidemic infectious diseases, and the emergence of cereal grains as dietary staples. Before ~20 000 y ago cereal grains were infrequently used by humans but for most people living after the adoption of agriculture they provided a major proportion of the diet. Grains, however, are a poor source of calcium (Table 7; 14-25) for several reasons: they contain much less calcium than do uncultivated vegetable foods; some (especially wheat) contain phytate, which avidly binds calcium in vitro and which may reduce its absorption from the human intestinal tract; and their proportions of calcium and phosphorus are highly disadvantageous. Uncultivated plant foods generally provide more calcium than phosphorus but grains have 10 times more phosphorus than calcium. The relative importance of these factors-less protein, more infection, more nutritional stress, and less calcium-in reducing human height after the beginning of agriculture is currently unclear but reduced availability of dietary calcium was almost certainly a contributary influence."

"It is becoming increasingly evident that overall skeletal mass developed during youth and early adulthood is a critical factor influencing the likelihood of osteoporotic fractures in later life (25, 49). Although affected by heredity, race, and gender, the peak bone mass accumulated by any given individual also reflects the mechanical stresses to which the skeleton has been subjected (50, 51). In addition, adequate lifetime calcium intake appears to augment the bone-building effects of exercise (52), perhaps synergistically (53). In view ofthese relationships it should hardly be surprising that the skeletal mass achieved by humans living in the Late Paleolithic Era exceeded that of people living subsequently (54, 55): the lifestyle of Stone Agers demanded levels of physical exertion that exceeded those common among contemporary humans (27) and their dietary calcium intake averaged twice that consumed by Americans today. Even as late as 12 000 y ago the humeral cortical thickness of Stone Age hunters (Near Eastern Natufians) exceeded that of current whites and blacks by an average of 17% (56)."

"Some loss of cortical bone after midadulthood is a universal phenomenon (57) and, if substantial, the resulting bone mass reduction increases an individual’s fracture risk. Like the accumulation of peak bone mass during youth, the rate and extent of bone mineral loss in later life is influenced by physical activity (58-63)."

"Current human dietary requirements have evolved over a 200-million-y experience during which our ancestral species existed in a high-calcium nutritional environment. The adaptations of Late-Paleolithic humans remain pertinent because, despite 10 000 y of agriculture and 200 y of industrialization, our genetic makeup remains adapted for the circumstances of the Late Stone Age. Past and present diets differ significantly in several respects and one of these involves calcium intake. Stone Agers consumed a greater amount of calcium than we do, probably 1500 mg/d or even more, and their sources were different: vegetable rather than dairy. Furthermore, this calcium intake interacted with a very different mix of other nutrients; in general there was an abundance of protein, micronutrients, and fiber but much less fat and sodium."

 

[Nighteyes]

Past and present diets differ significantly in several respects and one of these involves calcium intake. Stone Agers consumed a greater amount of calcium than we do, probably 1500 mg/d or even more, and their sources were different: vegetable rather than dairy. Furthermore, this calcium intake interacted with a very different mix of other nutrients; in general there was an abundance of protein, micronutrients, and fiber but much less fat and sodium."

Does the author state whether the main source was fruit or leaves? I suppose a combination. But I think this point you have brought up is important. The source of the calcium matters. I still have a hard time understanding why exactly though...

 

[Amazoniac]

Does the author state whether the main source was fruit or leaves? I suppose a combination. But I think this point you have brought up is important. The source of the calcium matters. I still have a hard time understanding why exactly though...

"[..]from the time mammals first appeared until ~50 mya--a total of 150 million y, three-quarters of the entire time mammals have existed--our ancestors were primarily insectivorous. Given the slow and essentially conservative nature of genetic evolution, this long-standing adaptation for insect consumption must have made a significant impact on our genetic heritage. Consequently, the nutritional properties of insects have relevance for understanding the forces that have shaped the nutritional requirements of present-day humans. The calcium content of insects averages 124 mg/lOO g (3, 4), considerably higher than that of wild game (Table 1). In adult insects, much of this calcium occurs as chitin in the exoskeleton so that its bioavailability is limited for today’s higher primates. However, most existing strepsirhines (prosimians) can digest chitin (5), and seems likely that ancestral insectivores had the same capacity. Calcium from larval forms is thought to be more generally bioavailable (ME Fowler, personal communication, 1990)."
@Travis (chitin and ase, and I think you'll enjoy this discussion anyway because it's in the lines with your beliefs)

"Although Americans now obtain the major portion of their dietary calcium from dairy products, no humans who lived before ~10 000 y ago had domesticated animals and, therefore, had no dairy foods whatever after they were weaned (usually at around age 3 y). Preagricultural people obtained their calcium primarily from uncultivated plant foods and, to a minimal extent, from wild game."

Spoiler: some shady examples

"[..]under these hypothetical conditions, the daily energy intake would have been provided by 689 g of meat and 1279 g of plant foods. Because game provides 14.2 mg and wild plants 133 mg Ca/100-g portion, the daily calcium intake for Stone Agers in these circumstances would have been 1798.9 mg."

- Antiperistalsis and other muscular activities of the colon

"The colon of man, as those of the frugivorous Simiidae, is strongly sacculated in its ascending, transverse, and descending portions; and there can be no doubt that it is rather of the herbivorous than the carnivorous type."​

- Associations of vegetable and fruit consumption with age-related cognitive change

"In previous studies, we found associations between cognitive change and individual dietary components, including vitamin E intake from foods, total vitamin C, niacin, folate, fish, and fat composition."

"All types of vegetables, except legumes, were inversely associated with cognitive decline."

"Of the different types of vegetables, green leafy vegetables had the strongest association. Fruit consumption was not associated with cognitive change."

"[..]both fruit and vegetable consumption were associated with factors related to a healthy lifestyle, yet the observed protection against cognitive decline was specific to vegetable and not to fruit consumption"

"Our findings are consistent with those of the Nurses’ Health Study,21 which found that higher vegetable consumption, but not higher fruit consumption, was associated with significantly less decline in cognitive score over 2 years. However, because these studies are observational in design, it is always possible that the observed associations are due to residual or unmeasured confounding."​

- Lifelong Low-Phylloquinone Intake Is Associated with Cognitive Impairments in Old Rats | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

"Aged (20 mo) rats fed a diet low in phylloquinone since weaning acquired spatial learning more slowly than those fed diets containing adequate or high amounts. Learning impairments in old rats were not related to motor or visual deficits, because performance on the cue and probe trials was identical across groups. Motor activity and exploratory behavior were also assessed using the open field test and performance did not vary as a function of diet. Similarly, anxiety, as assessed by the elevated plus maze test, was not affected by diet. Thus, the impairment observed in the water maze is not likely attributable to differences in either motor ability or emotionality, but rather reflects a true cognitive deficit. Interestingly, a low-vitamin K diet had no significant impact on cognition in rats aged 6 and 12 mo, which suggests that vitamin K is particularly important to brain function in the more vulnerable aging state."

"In an independent experiment, short-term treatment of rats with the vitamin K antagonist warfarin resulted in reduced exploratory behavior. However, because no information was provided regarding the vitamin K content of the deficient diet and/or vitamin K status of the rats, it is difficult to firmly establish that the reported behavior perturbations were a consequence of a low-vitamin K status (19)."

"As observed in younger rats (14), vitamin K in brain of aged rats was largely in the form of MK-4, with this K vitamer accounting for ~99% of total vitamin K. Furthermore, brain vitamin K content increased as a function of intake, with rats having consumed the H diet presenting significantly higher MK-4 concentrations than those of the L and A groups. The finding that MK-4 is the principal K vitamer in brains of aged rats confirms similar observations by other groups (13, 15, 30)."

"An important finding of the present study concerns the fact that lifetime consumption of a low-vitamin K diet is associated with higher levels of ceramides in the hippocampus, a key brain region in spatial memory and navigation (31). Ceramides, which can be generated from de novo synthesis or from sphingomyelin through the action of sphingomyelinase (Smases), have been shown to mediate processes such as differentiation, growth arrest, apoptosis, and senescence (12). Specifically, when present in high concentrations, ceramides have been involved in inflammatory processes (production of cytokines IL-2 and IL-6 (32) and in the generation of reactive oxygen species from mitochondria (33). Ceramides have also been shown to inhibit the neuronal survival pathway regulated by phosphatidil-inositol-3-kinase/Akt (34) and activate the caspase-9/caspase-3 pathway (35, 36). Finally, numerous studies have reported elevated levels of ceramides in neurodegenerative disease such as Alzheimer's disease (37). In light of the actions of ceramides, i.e. inflammation, generation of reactive oxygen species, etc., all of which have been linked to neuronal vulnerability during aging (38), their presence in lower concentrations in the hippocampus of rats having consumed the high-vitamin K diet could have contributed to their better spatial memory performances."

"In animal studies, MK-4 has been observed to limit inflammation in models of encephalomyelitis (47), whereas phylloquinone has been reported to suppress LPS-induced inflammation in the rat (48). In a recent study, the antiinflammatory activity of vitamin K, notably MK-4, was shown to be mediated via the inhibition of the NF-κB signaling pathway (49). Furthermore, recent epidemiological cohort studies have reported that a high-vitamin K nutritional status is associated with lower levels of the proinflammatory markers IL-6, intracellular adhesion molecule-1, TNF receptor 2, and C-reactive protein (50, 51). Finally, Li et al. (52) showed that both phylloquinone and MK-4 suppressed the cell death of oligodendrocytes depleted of glutathione. In a more recent report, this group provided additional evidence that the protective effect of vitamin K against oxidative cell death was by inhibiting the activation of enzyme 12-lipoxygenase (53)."​

- Vitamin K status and cognitive function in healthy older adults - ScienceDirect
- Dietary Vitamin K Intake Is Associated with Cognition and Behaviour among Geriatric Patients: The CLIP Study
- Phylloquinone supplementation improves glycemic status independent of the effects of adiponectin levels in premonopause women with prediabetes: A double-blind randomized controlled clinical trial
- Effect of phylloquinone supplementation on glucose homeostasis in humans | The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition | Oxford Academic
- Western Lowland Gorilla Diet Has Implications for the Health of Humans and Other Hominoids | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

So, yeah, calcium obtained from leafy of the greens has some advantages over dairy not limited to vit K. The mineral composition is another example, which is more balanced for adults.

Ps.: this has nothing to do with discrimination based on color.

 

[Nighteyes]

"[..]from the time mammals first appeared until ~50 mya--a total of 150 million y, three-quarters of the entire time mammals have existed--our ancestors were primarily insectivorous. Given the slow and essentially conservative nature of genetic evolution, this long-standing adaptation for insect consumption must have made a significant impact on our genetic heritage. Consequently, the nutritional properties of insects have relevance for understanding the forces that have shaped the nutritional requirements of present-day humans. The calcium content of insects averages 124 mg/lOO g (3, 4), considerably higher than that of wild game (Table 1). In adult insects, much of this calcium occurs as chitin in the exoskeleton so that its bioavailability is limited for today’s higher primates. However, most existing strepsirhines (prosimians) can digest chitin (5), and seems likely that ancestral insectivores had the same capacity. Calcium from larval forms is thought to be more generally bioavailable (ME Fowler, personal communication, 1990)."
@Travis (chitin and ase, and I think you'll enjoy this discussion anyway because it's in the lines with your beliefs)

"Although Americans now obtain the major portion of their dietary calcium from dairy products, no humans who lived before ~10 000 y ago had domesticated animals and, therefore, had no dairy foods whatever after they were weaned (usually at around age 3 y). Preagricultural people obtained their calcium primarily from uncultivated plant foods and, to a minimal extent, from wild game."

Spoiler: some shady examples

View attachment 9185

"[..]under these hypothetical conditions, the daily energy intake would have been provided by 689 g of meat and 1279 g of plant foods. Because game provides 14.2 mg and wild plants 133 mg Ca/100-g portion, the daily calcium intake for Stone Agers in these circumstances would have been 1798.9 mg."

- Antiperistalsis and other muscular activities of the colon

"The colon of man, as those of the frugivorous Simiidae, is strongly sacculated in its ascending, transverse, and descending portions; and there can be no doubt that it is rather of the herbivorous than the carnivorous type."​

- Associations of vegetable and fruit consumption with age-related cognitive change

"In previous studies, we found associations between cognitive change and individual dietary components, including vitamin E intake from foods, total vitamin C, niacin, folate, fish, and fat composition."

"All types of vegetables, except legumes, were inversely associated with cognitive decline."

"Of the different types of vegetables, green leafy vegetables had the strongest association. Fruit consumption was not associated with cognitive change."

"[..]both fruit and vegetable consumption were associated with factors related to a healthy lifestyle, yet the observed protection against cognitive decline was specific to vegetable and not to fruit consumption"

"Our findings are consistent with those of the Nurses’ Health Study,21 which found that higher vegetable consumption, but not higher fruit consumption, was associated with significantly less decline in cognitive score over 2 years. However, because these studies are observational in design, it is always possible that the observed associations are due to residual or unmeasured confounding."​

- Lifelong Low-Phylloquinone Intake Is Associated with Cognitive Impairments in Old Rats | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

"Aged (20 mo) rats fed a diet low in phylloquinone since weaning acquired spatial learning more slowly than those fed diets containing adequate or high amounts. Learning impairments in old rats were not related to motor or visual deficits, because performance on the cue and probe trials was identical across groups. Motor activity and exploratory behavior were also assessed using the open field test and performance did not vary as a function of diet. Similarly, anxiety, as assessed by the elevated plus maze test, was not affected by diet. Thus, the impairment observed in the water maze is not likely attributable to differences in either motor ability or emotionality, but rather reflects a true cognitive deficit. Interestingly, a low-vitamin K diet had no significant impact on cognition in rats aged 6 and 12 mo, which suggests that vitamin K is particularly important to brain function in the more vulnerable aging state."

"In an independent experiment, short-term treatment of rats with the vitamin K antagonist warfarin resulted in reduced exploratory behavior. However, because no information was provided regarding the vitamin K content of the deficient diet and/or vitamin K status of the rats, it is difficult to firmly establish that the reported behavior perturbations were a consequence of a low-vitamin K status (19)."

"As observed in younger rats (14), vitamin K in brain of aged rats was largely in the form of MK-4, with this K vitamer accounting for ~99% of total vitamin K. Furthermore, brain vitamin K content increased as a function of intake, with rats having consumed the H diet presenting significantly higher MK-4 concentrations than those of the L and A groups. The finding that MK-4 is the principal K vitamer in brains of aged rats confirms similar observations by other groups (13, 15, 30)."

"An important finding of the present study concerns the fact that lifetime consumption of a low-vitamin K diet is associated with higher levels of ceramides in the hippocampus, a key brain region in spatial memory and navigation (31). Ceramides, which can be generated from de novo synthesis or from sphingomyelin through the action of sphingomyelinase (Smases), have been shown to mediate processes such as differentiation, growth arrest, apoptosis, and senescence (12). Specifically, when present in high concentrations, ceramides have been involved in inflammatory processes (production of cytokines IL-2 and IL-6 (32) and in the generation of reactive oxygen species from mitochondria (33). Ceramides have also been shown to inhibit the neuronal survival pathway regulated by phosphatidil-inositol-3-kinase/Akt (34) and activate the caspase-9/caspase-3 pathway (35, 36). Finally, numerous studies have reported elevated levels of ceramides in neurodegenerative disease such as Alzheimer's disease (37). In light of the actions of ceramides, i.e. inflammation, generation of reactive oxygen species, etc., all of which have been linked to neuronal vulnerability during aging (38), their presence in lower concentrations in the hippocampus of rats having consumed the high-vitamin K diet could have contributed to their better spatial memory performances."

"In animal studies, MK-4 has been observed to limit inflammation in models of encephalomyelitis (47), whereas phylloquinone has been reported to suppress LPS-induced inflammation in the rat (48). In a recent study, the antiinflammatory activity of vitamin K, notably MK-4, was shown to be mediated via the inhibition of the NF-κB signaling pathway (49). Furthermore, recent epidemiological cohort studies have reported that a high-vitamin K nutritional status is associated with lower levels of the proinflammatory markers IL-6, intracellular adhesion molecule-1, TNF receptor 2, and C-reactive protein (50, 51). Finally, Li et al. (52) showed that both phylloquinone and MK-4 suppressed the cell death of oligodendrocytes depleted of glutathione. In a more recent report, this group provided additional evidence that the protective effect of vitamin K against oxidative cell death was by inhibiting the activation of enzyme 12-lipoxygenase (53)."​

- Vitamin K status and cognitive function in healthy older adults - ScienceDirect
- Dietary Vitamin K Intake Is Associated with Cognition and Behaviour among Geriatric Patients: The CLIP Study
- Phylloquinone supplementation improves glycemic status independent of the effects of adiponectin levels in premonopause women with prediabetes: A double-blind randomized controlled clinical trial
- Effect of phylloquinone supplementation on glucose homeostasis in humans | The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition | Oxford Academic
- Western Lowland Gorilla Diet Has Implications for the Health of Humans and Other Hominoids | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

So, yeah, calcium obtained from leafy of the greens has some advantages over dairy not limited to vit K. The mineral composition is another example, which is more balanced for adults.

Ps.: this has nothing to do with discrimination based on color.

Thank you amazoniac - some interesting reading yet again! It appears there are quite a few benefits to inlcluding more vegetables in one’s diet.. a meal always feels more balanced This Way anyway so I guess that it an obvious clue. Many I speek to claim vegtables taste bad/ are boring and yet always include som as a side to their steak.. cultural indoctrination or Natural craving? Hard to say though I find the latter more likely

 

[Kartoffel]

"[..]under these hypothetical conditions, the daily energy intake would have been provided by 689 g of meat and 1279 g of plant foods. Because game provides 14.2 mg and wild plants 133 mg Ca/100-g portion, the daily calcium intake for Stone Agers in these circumstances would have been 1798.9 mg."

I think hypothetical is the key term in this discussion about Stonge Age diets. Fact is we don't know what exactely these people ate, and any numbers regarding their mineral ratios is pure speculation, often heavily influenced by current nutritional recommendations and ideologies. Moreover, there were hundreds and thousands of different populations of Stone Agers all over the world, and so there must have been a sheer endless variety of diets and mineral ratios, and let's not even mention that the time frame of roughly 3 million years makes things even more complicated.

 

[Amazoniac]

Thank you amazoniac - some interesting reading yet again! It appears there are quite a few benefits to inlcluding more vegetables in one’s diet.. a meal always feels more balanced This Way anyway so I guess that it an obvious clue. Many I speek to claim vegtables taste bad/ are boring and yet always include som as a side to their steak.. cultural indoctrination or Natural craving? Hard to say though I find the latter more likely

Most greens taste bad, but some do not (arugula, lettuce, babyzords). The exceptions are those that people normally eat in raw in salads and the rest deserve cooking to decrease toxins and flavorings as complements. Young leaves have less toxins and thus more palatable. West of the sides used to comment how butter tastes weird on its own, so it's the combination that matters.
Regarding intuitive eating, combining meats with leaves increases nutrition, helps to balance the excess phosphorus.
I also already posted about some herbs minimizing the harm of charred meat. Argentina and Uruguay are famous for their barbecues, and there's a traditional sauce that's used accompanying meats:
Chimichurri - Wikipedia

I think hypothetical is the key term in this discussion about Stonge Age diets. Fact is we don't know what exactely these people ate, and any numbers regarding their mineral ratios is pure speculation, often heavily influenced by current nutritional recommendations and ideologies. Moreover, there were hundreds and thousands of different populations of Stone Agers all over the world, and so there must have been a sheer endless variety of diets and mineral ratios, and let's not even mention that the time frame of roughly 3 million years makes things even more complicated.

Indeed, but if part of our digestive tract resembles that of an herbivore, it means that we're adapted (and probably expected) to eat vegetation. Since leaves contain a good deal of calcium, the main point is that we're adapted to higher intakes of it. I suspect the reason why people select diets that are lower in it is to protect themselves from imbalances since the main source is dairy. As mentioned before many times, the disproportionate amount of calcium in relation to other of the minerals can be a problem if we consider that most people today eat enough calories but not enough nutrients, so foods that have a lot of nutrition per calorie are interesting.

 

[tca300]

there can be no doubt that it is rather of the herbivorous than the carnivorous type."

I must not be human... explains alot.

 

[Kartoffel]

Indeed, but if part of our digestive tract resembles that of an herbivore, it means that we're adapted (and probably expected) to eat vegetation. Since leaves contain a good deal of calcium, the main point is that we're adapted to higher intakes of it. I suspect the reason why people select diets that are lower in it is to protect themselves from imbalances since the main source is dairy. As mentioned before many times, the disproportionate amount of calcium in relation to other of the minerals can be a problem if we consider that most people today eat enough calories but not enough nutrients, so foods that have a lot of nutrition per calorie are interesting.

I think that's the one evolutional conclusions that seems fairly safe to assume - humans are pretty much adapted to eating anything in various combinations and thrive on all kinds of diets. But saying that we are meant to eat a lot of calcium from leaves just because our digestive tract is adapted to it would be the same as saying that we're are meant to get a lot of phosphorus because we can digest meat.
What would be the problems of too much calcium in relation to other minerals? Also, which minerals do you mean exactely when you say that leaves have a much better ratio than dairy? Most leaves contain more K than dairy, but the Ca:Mg ratio isn't that different for some leafy greens like kale for instance (10:1 vs 7:1). I can't see how this would make a significant difference especially if the diet contains other mineral rich foods like fruits and tubers.

 

[Amazoniac]

I must not be human... explains alot.

You look human, but I already suspected you weren't.

I think that's the one evolutional conclusions that seems fairly safe to assume - humans are pretty much adapted to eating anything in various combinations and thrive on all kinds of diets. But saying that we are meant to eat a lot of calcium from leaves just because our digestive tract is adapted to it would be the same as saying that we're are meant to get a lot of phosphorus because we can digest meat.
What would be the problems of too much calcium in relation to other minerals? Also, which minerals do you mean exactely when you say that leaves have a much better ratio than dairy? Most leaves contain more K than dairy, but the Ca:Mg ratio isn't that different for some leafy greens like kale for instance (10:1 vs 7:1). I can't see how this would make a significant difference especially if the diet contains other mineral rich foods like fruits and tubers.

I didn't say that, I said we're adapted to higher intakes of calcium. And that the advantage of obtaining it through greens for an adult is that it has more nutrients per calorie and a more balanced distribution since milk has calcium in excess to stimulate growth. If you don't believe me..

- Broccoli, cooked
- Milk 1%

To get the same amount of calcium, you'll obtain nearly 6x more potassium and magnesium (!!), this alone would close of the cases, but also 3x more zinc, 18x more copper, 194x more manganese, and finally 65x more iron. However! Those same 65x more of folate and 7x more choline. If that wasn't enough, you'll have a bonus of 32x more vit K (funny how defatted milk contains some), K1 and MK-4 structure is very similar. Oh, and it has infinitely more vit C.
It's just a matter o rotating the greens if they happen to contain toxins that can accumulate.

 

[Travis]

"[..]from the time mammals first appeared until ~50 mya--a total of 150 million y, three-quarters of the entire time mammals have existed--our ancestors were primarily insectivorous. Given the slow and essentially conservative nature of genetic evolution, this long-standing adaptation for insect consumption must have made a significant impact on our genetic heritage. Consequently, the nutritional properties of insects have relevance for understanding the forces that have shaped the nutritional requirements of present-day humans. The calcium content of insects averages 124 mg/lOO g (3, 4), considerably higher than that of wild game (Table 1). In adult insects, much of this calcium occurs as chitin in the exoskeleton so that its bioavailability is limited for today’s higher primates. However, most existing strepsirhines (prosimians) can digest chitin (5), and seems likely that ancestral insectivores had the same capacity. Calcium from larval forms is thought to be more generally bioavailable (ME Fowler, personal communication, 1990)."
@Travis (chitin and ase, and I think you'll enjoy this discussion anyway because it's in the lines with your beliefs)

"Although Americans now obtain the major portion of their dietary calcium from dairy products, no humans who lived before ~10 000 y ago had domesticated animals and, therefore, had no dairy foods whatever after they were weaned (usually at around age 3 y). Preagricultural people obtained their calcium primarily from uncultivated plant foods and, to a minimal extent, from wild game."

Spoiler: some shady examples

View attachment 9185

"[..]under these hypothetical conditions, the daily energy intake would have been provided by 689 g of meat and 1279 g of plant foods. Because game provides 14.2 mg and wild plants 133 mg Ca/100-g portion, the daily calcium intake for Stone Agers in these circumstances would have been 1798.9 mg."

- Antiperistalsis and other muscular activities of the colon

"The colon of man, as those of the frugivorous Simiidae, is strongly sacculated in its ascending, transverse, and descending portions; and there can be no doubt that it is rather of the herbivorous than the carnivorous type."​

- Associations of vegetable and fruit consumption with age-related cognitive change

"In previous studies, we found associations between cognitive change and individual dietary components, including vitamin E intake from foods, total vitamin C, niacin, folate, fish, and fat composition."

"All types of vegetables, except legumes, were inversely associated with cognitive decline."

"Of the different types of vegetables, green leafy vegetables had the strongest association. Fruit consumption was not associated with cognitive change."

"[..]both fruit and vegetable consumption were associated with factors related to a healthy lifestyle, yet the observed protection against cognitive decline was specific to vegetable and not to fruit consumption"

"Our findings are consistent with those of the Nurses’ Health Study,21 which found that higher vegetable consumption, but not higher fruit consumption, was associated with significantly less decline in cognitive score over 2 years. However, because these studies are observational in design, it is always possible that the observed associations are due to residual or unmeasured confounding."​

- Lifelong Low-Phylloquinone Intake Is Associated with Cognitive Impairments in Old Rats | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

"Aged (20 mo) rats fed a diet low in phylloquinone since weaning acquired spatial learning more slowly than those fed diets containing adequate or high amounts. Learning impairments in old rats were not related to motor or visual deficits, because performance on the cue and probe trials was identical across groups. Motor activity and exploratory behavior were also assessed using the open field test and performance did not vary as a function of diet. Similarly, anxiety, as assessed by the elevated plus maze test, was not affected by diet. Thus, the impairment observed in the water maze is not likely attributable to differences in either motor ability or emotionality, but rather reflects a true cognitive deficit. Interestingly, a low-vitamin K diet had no significant impact on cognition in rats aged 6 and 12 mo, which suggests that vitamin K is particularly important to brain function in the more vulnerable aging state."

"In an independent experiment, short-term treatment of rats with the vitamin K antagonist warfarin resulted in reduced exploratory behavior. However, because no information was provided regarding the vitamin K content of the deficient diet and/or vitamin K status of the rats, it is difficult to firmly establish that the reported behavior perturbations were a consequence of a low-vitamin K status (19)."

"As observed in younger rats (14), vitamin K in brain of aged rats was largely in the form of MK-4, with this K vitamer accounting for ~99% of total vitamin K. Furthermore, brain vitamin K content increased as a function of intake, with rats having consumed the H diet presenting significantly higher MK-4 concentrations than those of the L and A groups. The finding that MK-4 is the principal K vitamer in brains of aged rats confirms similar observations by other groups (13, 15, 30)."

"An important finding of the present study concerns the fact that lifetime consumption of a low-vitamin K diet is associated with higher levels of ceramides in the hippocampus, a key brain region in spatial memory and navigation (31). Ceramides, which can be generated from de novo synthesis or from sphingomyelin through the action of sphingomyelinase (Smases), have been shown to mediate processes such as differentiation, growth arrest, apoptosis, and senescence (12). Specifically, when present in high concentrations, ceramides have been involved in inflammatory processes (production of cytokines IL-2 and IL-6 (32) and in the generation of reactive oxygen species from mitochondria (33). Ceramides have also been shown to inhibit the neuronal survival pathway regulated by phosphatidil-inositol-3-kinase/Akt (34) and activate the caspase-9/caspase-3 pathway (35, 36). Finally, numerous studies have reported elevated levels of ceramides in neurodegenerative disease such as Alzheimer's disease (37). In light of the actions of ceramides, i.e. inflammation, generation of reactive oxygen species, etc., all of which have been linked to neuronal vulnerability during aging (38), their presence in lower concentrations in the hippocampus of rats having consumed the high-vitamin K diet could have contributed to their better spatial memory performances."

"In animal studies, MK-4 has been observed to limit inflammation in models of encephalomyelitis (47), whereas phylloquinone has been reported to suppress LPS-induced inflammation in the rat (48). In a recent study, the antiinflammatory activity of vitamin K, notably MK-4, was shown to be mediated via the inhibition of the NF-κB signaling pathway (49). Furthermore, recent epidemiological cohort studies have reported that a high-vitamin K nutritional status is associated with lower levels of the proinflammatory markers IL-6, intracellular adhesion molecule-1, TNF receptor 2, and C-reactive protein (50, 51). Finally, Li et al. (52) showed that both phylloquinone and MK-4 suppressed the cell death of oligodendrocytes depleted of glutathione. In a more recent report, this group provided additional evidence that the protective effect of vitamin K against oxidative cell death was by inhibiting the activation of enzyme 12-lipoxygenase (53)."​

- Vitamin K status and cognitive function in healthy older adults - ScienceDirect
- Dietary Vitamin K Intake Is Associated with Cognition and Behaviour among Geriatric Patients: The CLIP Study
- Phylloquinone supplementation improves glycemic status independent of the effects of adiponectin levels in premonopause women with prediabetes: A double-blind randomized controlled clinical trial
- Effect of phylloquinone supplementation on glucose homeostasis in humans | The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition | Oxford Academic
- Western Lowland Gorilla Diet Has Implications for the Health of Humans and Other Hominoids | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

So, yeah, calcium obtained from leafy of the greens has some advantages over dairy not limited to vit K. The mineral composition is another example, which is more balanced for adults.

Ps.: this has nothing to do with discrimination based on color.

I was thinking it had more to do with folate! . . . perhaps even something about magnesium.

I do like the offhand mention of chitin in insect shells, what is probably why the pineapple has three unique chitinase enzymes. My Burmese slave informs be that 'in a tropical country there are many insects,' which have as their shell a tough polyssacharide known as chitin; this could be seen as a source of carbohydrates by the delicious pineapple, but not immediately because liberating it will take time.. .

We can assume that certain unnamed tropical pineapple-eating birds & beasts—ostensibly with lead-lined digestive tracts—engulf the pineapple whole yet leave the core, a remnant which later releases pineapple chitinases that digest chitin on the forest floor. The free glucose hence liberated is deftly assimilated by the bromelaids elaborate & extensive root structure, not only for immediate use but also for incorporating the monosaccharide directly into the next generation of budding fruit. Thus, the production of chitinase by this plant can be seen as an enzymatic contrivance for obtaining glucose in the near future—a 'molecular investment' if you will.

[Yes Amazoniac, this teleologic explanation for the unique presence of chitinase in the bromelaid means that some of the glucose in your Costa Rican pineapple had been exoskeletal chitin not too long ago. So . . . put that in your blender and smoke drink it!]

 

[Runenight201]

Interesting read, the fact that milk isn't universally digested by many peoples in combination with the importance of calcium must mean that in our evolution we were consuming large amounts of either greens or...insects?

1200g of plant foods in order to obtain 1.7g of calcium... has anyone ever tried eating 1200g of well boiled collard greens? Are there any harms to trying this out in conjunction with meat + gelatin?

 

[michael94]

Interesting read, the fact that milk isn't universally digested by many peoples in combination with the importance of calcium must mean that in our evolution we were consuming large amounts of either greens or...insects?

1200g of plant foods in order to obtain 1.7g of calcium... has anyone ever tried eating 1200g of well boiled collard greens? Are there any harms to trying this out in conjunction with meat + gelatin?

what kind of insects have much calcium

 

[benaoao]

Interesting read, the fact that milk isn't universally digested by many peoples in combination with the importance of calcium must mean that in our evolution we were consuming large amounts of either greens or...insects?

1200g of plant foods in order to obtain 1.7g of calcium... has anyone ever tried eating 1200g of well boiled collard greens? Are there any harms to trying this out in conjunction with meat + gelatin?

I don’t know abou Collared greens but I do get a pound of spinach leaves per day... the frozen kind that you gently boil with some other vegetables (rotating them) and mushrooms and it’s delicious

 

[tara]

[Yes Amazoniac, this teleologic explanation for the unique presence of chitinase in the bromelaid means that some of the glucose in your Costa Rican pineapple had been exoskeletal chitin not too long ago. So . . . put that in your blender and smoke drink it!]

Aren't some of the bromeliad relatives rather more directly insectivorous? Luring and drowning the insects in the plant's digestive juices?

 

[Travis]

Aren't some of the bromeliad relatives rather more directly insectivorous? Luring and drowning the insects in the plant's digestive juices?

You are probably right, and let's see if we can find a list of insectivorous plants.

This one here doesn't have any plants in the pineapple genus, but it does have alot of others listed.

 

[tara]

Yes, some in the same bromeliaceae family, if not in the same genus. I found this:

Carnivorous plant - Wikipedia

"Within the family Bromeliaceae, pitcher morphology and carnivory evolved twice (Brocchinia and Catopsis).[5]"

and

"The final carnivore with a pitfall-like trap is the bromeliad Brocchinia reducta. Like most relatives of the pineapple, the tightly packed, waxy leaf bases of the strap-like leaves of this species form an urn. In most bromeliads, water collects readily in this urn and may provide habitats for frogs, insects and, more useful for the plant, diazotrophic (nitrogen-fixing) bacteria. In Brocchinia, the urn is a specialised insect trap, with a loose, waxy lining and a population of digestive bacteria."

 

[Travis]

I suppose within the same family is close enough; the leaves of these carnivorous plants do resemble the pineapple.

'Based on these criteria, today we recognize at least 583 species of carnivorous plants in 20 genera, 12 families, and 5 orders of flowering plants.' ―Givnish (2015)​

Thirty years before Thomas Givnish had written that sentence he had visited southeastern Venezuela, as part of an expedition sponsored by the Universidad de los Andes, and had collected information about Brocchinia reducta. This is a primitive carnivorous plant with no moving parts, yet emits molecules that attract insects which fall into the center of its leaf rosette. It's leaves are coated with a wax that exfoliates, perhaps similar to that powdery stuff I've noticed on my pineapple tops.

'Picado (1913) proposed that many tank bromeliads secrete proteolytic enzymes to digest animals that perish in the fluid impounded in their leaf rosette.' ―Givnish (1984)​

'Rees and Roe (1980) suggested that the giant Andean Puya raimondii may be carnivorous because small birds that nest among its closely packed leaves are often impaled on the leaf spines! It seems more likely, however, that Puya's spines evolved to deter consumption of its single terminal inflorescence by Andean bears, which destroy the flower spikes of 90% of some populations of closely related Puya species s (Wurdack 1964, personal communication),' ―Givnish (1984)​

This plant is found in South America, just a few hundred miles away from the Del Monte™ pineapple fields. Perhaps these plants share a common ancestor...

'Brocchinia reducta is a common terrestrial bromeliad in the Gran Sabana, and is a conspicuous element of many savannas or bogs on wet sand above 1200 m. It is widely distributed on tepuis in southern Venezuela and adjacent Guyana, and belongs to a pitcairnioid genus of 18 ecologically diverse species restricted to the Guayana Highlands (Smith and Downs 1974).' ―Givnish (1984)​

'First, the leaves are bright yellow-green and held nearly vertically, so that the leaf rosette forms a conspicuous yellowish cylinder that is taller (x = 32.8 + 14.5 cm, n = 20) than the surrounding herbaceous vegetation, and recalls the aspect of Sarracenia flava growing in bogs and pocosins of the southeastern United States (fig. 1). Second, the inner surface of each leaf is coated with a fine waxy powder that readily exfoliates (fig. 2), serving to lubricate the vertical surfaces and increasing the difficulty of escape from the central tank. Camponotus ants were placed near the bottom of excised leaves resting upright in a glass jar during the January field trip. Of nine observed attempts to ascend the inner waxy leaf surface, eight resulted in failure, even though the ants were able to negotiate the vertical glass walls of the jar. After the waxy cuticle was gently removed using a horsehair brush (see Fish 1976), seven of 10 attempts to ascend the inner leaf surface succeeded (P < .02, Fisher exact test). The fluid impounded within the tank is highly acidic with a pH of 2.8 to 3.0, the most extreme acidity yet found in bromeliads (cf. Laessle 1961; Benzing 1980).' ―Givnish (1984)​

Will the pineapple evolve to be more like Brocchinia reducta someday? perhaps eating birds or . . . perhaps even the farmers that try to pick them? I hope so, but it will need to evolve trichosomes first:

'Fifth, the trichomes or absorbing leaf hairs of B. reducta are unusual in structure and can absorb amino acids (and hence any likely product of the breakdown of nitrogenous material in the tank) at a high rate. Trichomes play an important role in the absorption of mineral nutrients in bromeliads, particularly in epiphytic species of the two more advanced subfamilies, the Bromelioideae and Tillandsioideae (Benzing 1976; Benzing et al. 1976; Benzing 1980).' ―Givnish (1984)​

'Brocchinia reducta is the least specialized of the known carnivorous plants, lacking recognizable digestive glands and specialized nectaries, and possessing only a rudimentary cuticular lubricant around its water pitfall.' ―Givnish (1984)​

'Brocchinia is unique among flowering plants in that it is the only genus in which carnivory is known but not universal.' ―Givnish (1984)​

This is an impressive plant, yet it does not yet turn the insects into pineapples like it should.

[1] Givnish, Thomas J. "New evidence on the origin of carnivorous plants." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (2015)
[2] Givnish, T. J. "Carnivory in the bromeliad Brocchinia reducta, with a const/benefit model for the general restriction of carnivorous plants to sunny, moist, nutrient-poor habitats." American naturalist (1984).​