Vegetable oils

[julia]

I have been interested in health for many years, going from the Blood Type Diet (which i roughly still adhere to), then Paleo for a couple of years, then Keto for 4 months (that was brutal) to Ray Peat. The Ray Peat diet, by far, is the easiest, most versatile and decadent diet I have ever done or never heard of. I think the problem for most "Peaters" is it that there aren't many conveniences. For cooks like myself the possibilities are endless! I love it!

I have read a lot of threads where people share their own experiences with losing weight when they increased sugar(not starch) without eating less calories.Why do you think this might be?Is it because of lowered stress by sugar consumption or because sugar increases the metabolic rate or perhaps for some other reason?What do you think about increasing sugar and losing fat?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I have read a lot of threads where people share their own experiences with losing weight when they increased sugar(not starch) without eating less calories.Why do you think this might be?Is it because of lowered stress by sugar consumption or because sugar increases the metabolic rate or perhaps for some other reason?What do you think about increasing sugar and losing fat?

Yes increasing sugar and zero starch is the key! Lower the fat and you will lose even more quicker! I never ate sugar before "Peating", I just never liked sweets as a kid, and I still don't like it, but it works! Not just by revving up the metabolism, but it's anti-stress effect keeps cortisol low.

 

[boris]

@Rafael Lao Wai thanks for the clarification about the accumulation.

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what do you mean by 'these' oils like just the oil forms like fish oil or peanut oil? [....] for example getting 10g pufa from eating whole food salmon or black seeds, would that be safer than taking a 1g fish oil capsule or 1g black seed oil capsule

I actually meant PUFAs in general, regardless of the source. I think 10g PUFA from salmon is almost as bad as 10g of fish oil.

The Great Fish Oil Experiment

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Unfortunately, the protective effect of vitamin E against the PUFA is only partial (Allard, et al., 1997).
...
The cytotoxicity caused by EPA and its metabolites (15 mg. of EPA per liter killed over 90% of a certain type of macrophage) isn't inhibited by vitamin E (Fyfe and Abbey, 2000).

 

[Dr. B]

According to Ray, the only way to keep PUFA from accumulating is to eat 0,5 grams or less per day while keeping fat intake low, which is really hard. See the conversation below between tca30- and Ray:

_______________________________________
tca300: You have repeatedly mentioned PUFA accumulates with aging. My question is, if someone in their 20's started eating a diet with less than 2 grams of PUFA per day, and maintained that low PUFA intake permanently into old age, would PUFA still accumulate with age? Thank you!

Ray: I think some would still accumulate in the fat tissues, unless total fat intake was low, and PUFA intake was half a gram or less.

( from Can You Deplete PUFA While Still Eating Butter, Chocolate, Etc )
_______________________________________

I personally can't do it without sacrificing nutrition. Calorie restriction also helps to burn the PUFAs before they are stored, but it comes with its own set of problems. You don't have to go ultra low in PUFA to see benefits though. Simply limiting it will already reduce prostaglandin synthesis and lower inflammation as a consequence.


This thread has some info on this: 4 Grams Of PUFA A Day Is Not A Threshold


Liver is great way to add choline without increasing PUFA much. And you get much more copper, zinc, b12, b6 and folate, if we equalize liver and eggs by their amount of choline.

Beef, raw, liver, variety meats and by-products nutrition facts and analysis.

www.nutritionvalue.org

Egg, raw, whole nutrition facts and analysis.

www.nutritionvalue.org

I think there is something about eggs that makes them not ideal. It maybe has to do with them not being mammalian/ruminant meat. like many people have gluten or dairy intolerance but i can tolerate dairy fine, gluten mostly fine, but eggs if I eat too much can cause bloating, constipation, skin irritation and redness, some fatigue etc. maybe its only the egg whites, maybe due to something chickens are fed which easily transports through the eggs

 

[Dr. B]

@Rafael Lao Wai thanks for the clarification about the accumulation.

---

I actually meant PUFAs in general, regardless of the source. I think 10g PUFA from salmon is almost as bad as 10g of fish oil.

The Great Fish Oil Experiment

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Unfortunately, the protective effect of vitamin E against the PUFA is only partial (Allard, et al., 1997).
...
The cytotoxicity caused by EPA and its metabolites (15 mg. of EPA per liter killed over 90% of a certain type of macrophage) isn't inhibited by vitamin E (Fyfe and Abbey, 2000).

i heard oxidized PUFA are safer? is that true/ so a fish oil capsule is safer than fresh fish?

 

[boris]

i heard oxidized PUFA are safer? is that true/ so a fish oil capsule is safer than fresh fish?

I hope so because I drank many bottles of it in the past . But I don't really know. The oxidized fish oil will have an anti inflammatory effect, but it's from supressing the immune system.

 

[Pet Peeve]

I think there is something about eggs that makes them not ideal. It maybe has to do with them not being mammalian/ruminant meat. like many people have gluten or dairy intolerance but i can tolerate dairy fine, gluten mostly fine, but eggs if I eat too much can cause bloating, constipation, skin irritation and redness, some fatigue etc. maybe its only the egg whites, maybe due to something chickens are fed which easily transports through the eggs

Sulphur maybe?

 

[Dr. B]

Sulphur maybe?

is that in milk, ground beef, liver etc? what would cause sulphur intolerance?

I hope so because I drank many bottles of it in the past . But I don't really know. The oxidized fish oil will have an anti inflammatory effect, but it's from supressing the immune system.

dont estrogens stimulate the immune system while androgens suppress it or stimulate it much less than estrogen?

 

[boris]

dont estrogens stimulate the immune system while androgens suppress it or stimulate it much less than estrogen?

It seems to be mainly a different mechanism that causes the supression in case of fish oils:

The Great Fish Oil Experiment

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Despite the nutritional value of those vitamins, fish oils are generally much more immunosuppressive than the seed oils, and the early effects of fish oil on the "immune system" include the suppression of prostaglandin synthesis, because the more highly unsaturated long chain fats interfere with the conversion of linoleic acid into arachidonic acid and prostaglandins. The prostaglandins are so problematic that their suppression is helpful, whether the inhibition is caused by aspirin or vitamin E, or by fish oil.

Some of the important antiinflammatory effects of fish oil result from the oxidized oils, rather than the unchanged oils (Sethi, 2002; Chaudhary, et al., 2004). These oils are so unstable that they begin to spontaneously oxidize even before they reach the bloodstream.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Sulphur maybe?

I would like to add my two cents about eggs. I always got bloated and felt "off" after eating an egg until I realized that it was the feed that the chickens are fed making me feel bad. When I finally found corn and soy free ones i never felt off again. I don't know where you live, but here is my brand.

 

[Dr. B]

I would like to add my two cents about eggs. I always got bloated and felt "off" after eating an egg until I realized that it was the feed that the chickens are fed making me feel bad. When I finally found corn and soy free ones i never felt off again. I don't know where you live, but here is my brand.

whats in the feed it can still contain grain and beans? i think some people give their chickens things like kelp and vitamin/mineral supplements also. I dont know why its so difficult to find pure 100% grass fed chickens. some farms claim 100% pastured but then say the chickens eat bugs, seeds, grass and anything found on pasture, as well as a chicken feed. apparently chickens can even eat animal meat like beef liver? i dont think they should be given kelp and mineral supplements, especially since the chickens are so small and lay so many eggs i feel like any nutrients they are supplemented with will just easily pass through into the eggs. like maybe a cow can better tolerate some vitamin supplements and not release them directly into their milk.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

whats in the feed it can still contain grain and beans? i think some people give their chickens things like kelp and vitamin/mineral supplements also. I dont know why its so difficult to find pure 100% grass fed chickens. some farms claim 100% pastured but then say the chickens eat bugs, seeds, grass and anything found on pasture, as well as a chicken feed. apparently chickens can even eat animal meat like beef liver? i dont think they should be given kelp and mineral supplements, especially since the chickens are so small and lay so many eggs i feel like any nutrients they are supplemented with will just easily pass through into the eggs. like maybe a cow can better tolerate some vitamin supplements and not release them directly into their milk.

Exactly Mr.Bollox! What they ate we eat. Corn and soy in the feed is usual. So eating those eggs ate not only higher in PUFA, but they is estrogenic. I just feel bad eating any eggs except the the corn and soy free.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Exactly Mr.Bollox! What they ate we eat. Corn and soy in the feed is usual. So eating those eggs ate not only higher in PUFA, but they is estrogenic. I just feel bad eating any eggs except the the corn and soy free.

I think cows would pass on suppliments into their milk. That is why milk from grass fed cows isn't so problematic compared to just organic and cheap pasteurized milk. There is no need to suppliment if they are grazing on grass. My husband thought he was lactose intolerant for 20 years until he had grass fed raw milk, now he drinks tons of it without issue.

 

[Dr. B]

Exactly Mr.Bollox! What they ate we eat. Corn and soy in the feed is usual. So eating those eggs ate not only higher in PUFA, but they is estrogenic. I just feel bad eating any eggs except the the corn and soy free.

but this is the odd thing, i have eaten costcos organic eggs. they likely have some organic soy and corn fed to them. eating a few of those would cause the bloating and skin redness. however at the same time period i could eat like, a soy protein bar, a donut fried in soybean oil, or a corn based item, all non organic, and not get the type of bloating and skin redness the eggs would cause! its strange! you would think eating soybean oil or soy protein directly should cause a much stronger reaction than just a couple eggs from chickens fed some organic soy/corn!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

but this is the odd thing, i have eaten costcos organic eggs. they likely have some organic soy and corn fed to them. eating a few of those would cause the bloating and skin redness. however at the same time period i could eat like, a soy protein bar, a donut fried in soybean oil, or a corn based item, all non organic, and not get the type of bloating and skin redness the eggs would cause! its strange! you would think eating soybean oil or soy protein directly should cause a much stronger reaction than just a couple eggs from chickens fed some organic soy/corn!

Well you have to consider that Ray Peat says that eggs are a powerful protein it themselves and need a lot of orange to balance even one egg. Now factor in the corn and soy and it's a problematic thing. Ray Peat says he only eats the eggs in Mexico because regular eggs make even him feel unwell. That is when figured that the feed is what must be making me ill too.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

The corn and soy free are such a different feeling that I have gone a month without eggs if I can't get them.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

The same with chicken too.....

 

[Dr. B]

Well you have to consider that Ray Peat says that eggs are a powerful protein it themselves and need a lot of orange to balance even one egg. Now factor in the corn and soy and it's a problematic thing. Ray Peat says he only eats the eggs in Mexico because regular eggs make even him feel unwell. That is when figured that the feed is what must be making me ill too.

yes thats the other thing like I can have fried chicken, which is non organic, full of pufa oil. like popeyes or chic filas chicken sandwich, probably the worst stuff you can imagine, maybe chic filas is antibiotic free but thats it. i can tolerate those which directly have pufa, and are soy and corn fed. but if its eggs i get the bloating, constipation effect and skin irritation. i think its something in the egg white. i havent tried out corn/soy free eggs on a long term basis.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

yes thats the other thing like I can have fried chicken, which is non organic, full of pufa oil. like popeyes or chic filas chicken sandwich, probably the worst stuff you can imagine, maybe chic filas is antibiotic free but thats it. i can tolerate those which directly have pufa, and are soy and corn fed. but if its eggs i get the bloating, constipation effect and skin irritation. i think its something in the egg white. i havent tried out corn/soy free eggs on a long term basis.

Well egg whites are very high in histamines, so maybe you are reacting the to the histamines? The skin irritation makes me think that could be your case. Though an egg intolerance can cause the bloating, I don't think it would cause skin issues.

 

[Pet Peeve]

is that in milk, ground beef, liver etc? what would cause sulphur intolerance?

One possible reason is molybdenum deficiency from excessive intake of some medications, sulphur containing foods or even caffeine.
sulfur-sensitivity-and-how-to-fix-it