Vegetable oils

[julia]

Hello Everyone!
There are a lot of nutritionists talking about the dangers of PUFA,but they only talk about vegetable oils as if they were the only source of PUFA in the diet.For example Dr Cate Shanahan advocates for eating nuts and seeds,avocados,salmon...etc. while eliminating only the vegetable oils.What do you think about this?Is it enough to remove only the seed oils to see improvements,or all high PUFA foods should be eliminated to see a noticeable change in our metabolism?Also I would like to ask you how many grams of PUFA do you get daily?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Hello Everyone!
There are a lot of nutritionists talking about the dangers of PUFA,but they only talk about vegetable oils as if they were the only source of PUFA in the diet.For example Dr Cate Shanahan advocates for eating nuts and seeds,avocados,salmon...etc. while eliminating only the vegetable oils.What do you think about this?Is it enough to remove only the seed oils to see improvements,or all high PUFA foods should be eliminated to see a noticeable change in our metabolism?Also I would like to ask you how many grams of PUFA do you get daily?

We Ray Peat people shoot for under 4 grams of PUFA a day and lower if we could. Salmon, avocado and all seeds and nuts, except some macadamias, are a "no go" for us.

 

[julia]

I try to go lower then 4 g too,But unless I eat a very low fat diet,it's impossible to go that low.Do you mind sharing what a typical day of eating looks like for you?Thanks!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I try to go lower then 4 g too,But unless I eat a very low fat diet,it's impossible to go that low.Do you mind sharing what a typical day of eating looks like for you?Thanks!

I eat a couple of hard boiled eggs with wasabi a day, or have homemade custard, I make myself fresh berry Koolade soaking berries in water and puting them in a coffee press and then add in sugar. I make iced coffee with skim milk or whole milk and mix it with leftover chilled coffee from the day before and add sugar. I drink 2 cups of skim milk and have it with with a big spoonful of good raw honey. I make on big heavier meal during the day, meatballs of every kind, meatloaf, a soup, maybe a crustless quiche, or some other kind of starch free heavy meal. At night it might be sauted shrimp in butter with Tabasco Habanero & salt, seared scallops, boiled & broiled chicken wings with a bowl of quick fresh made no cream ice cream. If you are having starches like potatoes the possibilities are endless! Are you starch free?

 

[julia]

Thank you!
Yes,I don't digest starches well.My diet is basically milk,cheese,fruit,beef and eggs and I still exceed the 4 g/day PUFA.Because I eat too much :)
But I'm trying to lose weight,have you had any change in weight since you started eating this way?

 

[boris]

A big problem with these oils is specifically that they are unsaturated, this makes them prone to oxidation. A whole food with PUFAs like nuts or fish protects you somewhat because of the vitamin E, but another problem is that PUFAs get preferentially stored and accumulated ....and then released under stress.

 

[Dr. B]

A big problem with these oils is specifically that they are unsaturated, this makes them prone to oxidation. A whole food with PUFAs like nuts or fish protects you somewhat because of the vitamin E, but another problem is that PUFAs get preferentially stored and accumulated ....and then released under stress.

pufas dont get preferentially excreted by the liver?

Thank you!
Yes,I don't digest starches well.My diet is basically milk,cheese,fruit,beef and eggs and I still exceed the 4 g/day PUFA.Because I eat too much :)
But I'm trying to lose weight,have you had any change in weight since you started eating this way?

you could cut out the eggs, they dont digest as well as milk, im not sure why, and they have lots of pufa.

 

[boris]

@Mr.Bollox Yes, with good metabolism they get glucuronidated and excreted in the urine.

Hans Selye showed PUFAs damage cells, but when he introduced saturated fat and PUFAs at once, first the saturated fat got burned for energy and the cells showed no damage. So the body prefers the saturated fat and stores away the PUFA. That's why Peat says PUFA intake should be kept at a certain threshold so that they don't accumulate.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Whole foods contain substances that help the body deal with the PUFA´( vitamin E, as boris said, as well as polyphenols, flavonoids etc.). One of Clement Ip's studies on the tumor-causing effects of fats mentions how eating a natural diet, instead of a purified one, lowers the bad consequences of PUFAs in rats. Also, plant foods with fiber( fruits or tubers, for example) probably yield less PUFA than they contain, since the fiber helps to absorb fat and take them to the large intestine to be eliminated. I think the plant sources of PUFAs are less likely to do harm, especially the nuts and seeds, since the their structure lowers absorption. Eating the salmon with some fiber may help with lowering the PUFA load.

Lately, I've been doing low fat, low protein days a few times a week, and on those days I only get about 1,8 grams of PUFA at almost 3000 calories. When I eat more fat and protein though, I usually get 4 grams a day.

 

[julia]

@Mr.Bollox Yes, with good metabolism they get glucuronidated and excreted in the urine.

Hans Selye showed PUFAs damage cells, but when he introduced saturated fat and PUFAs at once, first the saturated fat got burned for energy. So the body prefers the saturated fat and stores away the PUFA. That's why Peat says PUFA intake should be kept at a certain threshold so that they don't accumulate.

Thank you!Do you know what that threshold is?I know that the 4g/day come from a study done on mice and it showed that anything above that threshold makes them more prone to cancer.But how many grams of PUFA can we eat in a day without them getting stored?

 

[Jbird10]

cut out eggs and too low likely on choline which we need to handle the sugar, right?

 

[boris]

Thank you!Do you know what that threshold is?I know that the 4g/day come from a study done on mice and it showed that anything above that threshold makes them more prone to cancer.But how many grams of PUFA can we eat in a day without them getting stored?

Oh right, the under 4 grams was to prevent spontaneous cancers.

No idea how much that would be, I can imagine it's different for everyone. I just try to keep it low in general.

 

[Dr. B]

cut out eggs and too low likely on choline which we need to handle the sugar, right?

i havent looked, is choline needed for sugar processing? Ray likes choline but only in minimal amounts around the rda, iirc it is pro methylation like methionine and he doesnt like it. but i think even 1% milk has like 42mg per cup. maybe whole milk has more. liver is i think 150mg per oz or something? the combination of milk and liver should give a good amount otherwise ground beef has some and eggs have a lot

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Thank you!
Yes,I don't digest starches well.My diet is basically milk,cheese,fruit,beef and eggs and I still exceed the 4 g/day PUFA.Because I eat too much :)
But I'm trying to lose weight,have you had any change in weight since you started eating this way?

I did a post on my weight loss called Lose Fat Not Pounds and explained how I got to losing weight while Peating and posted my before and after pics!

Lose Fat Not Pounds & Seeing Is Believing (before & after pics)

"In one of the studies in which rats had been taught learned helplessness so they would drown in five or six minutes, just being able to see another rat escape would let the informed rat go for days without drowning. Just the recognition that someone else did it can make all the difference." Ray...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Thank you!Do you know what that threshold is?I know that the 4g/day come from a study done on mice and it showed that anything above that threshold makes them more prone to cancer.But how many grams of PUFA can we eat in a day without them getting stored?

If you use coconut oil, vitamin E and aspirin strategically with your PUFA foods you can get away with more. For an example my boiled egg I put a few drops of MCT coconut oil on each half to keep my body from storing the PUFA's. It also works great to moisten up a dry hard boiled egg or dry fish. I use a little Progest-E or shea butter with vitamin E in it on my skin before going to a restaurant and have a baby aspirin afterwards. All the little things like that tend off a lot of stored PUFA's.

 

[julia]

If you use coconut oil, vitamin E and aspirin strategically with your PUFA foods you can get away with more. For an example my boiled egg I put a few drops of MCT coconut oil on each half to keep my body from storing the PUFA's. It also works great to moisten up a dry hard boiled egg or dry fish. I use a little Progest-E or shea butter with vitamin E in it on my skin before going to a restaurant and have a baby aspirin afterwards. All the little things like that tend off a lot of stored PUFA's.

Thank you!
I have read your post about your fat loss,great info!
I didn't quite understand what was your diet like when you lost the fat.Would you please give an example of what you ate in a day?And also were you in a calorie deficit and what did you do for exercise?Thanks a lot!

 

[Dr. B]

A big problem with these oils is specifically that they are unsaturated, this makes them prone to oxidation. A whole food with PUFAs like nuts or fish protects you somewhat because of the vitamin E, but another problem is that PUFAs get preferentially stored and accumulated ....and then released under stress.

what do you mean by 'these' oils like just the oil forms like fish oil or peanut oil? I think peanut btw, has the allergenic component since isnt the peanut somehow related to a certain type of mold an thats why peanus are allergenic, and can cause inflammation even in people not allergic to them? peanuts also have some phytoestrogens, not as much as soy, but more than others. based on this i feel if you are doing PUFA, somethin like sunflower oil is likely safer than cottonseed, peanut, soy, corn?

would you say for example getting 10g pufa from eating whole food salmon or black seeds, would that be safer than taking a 1g fish oil capsule or 1g black seed oil capsule

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Thank you!
I have read your post about your fat loss,great info!
I didn't quite understand what was your diet like when you lost the fat.Would you please give an example of what you ate in a day?And also were you in a calorie deficit and what did you do for exercise?Thanks a lot!

I haven't exercised in over 30 years. I just move around and stay busy all day. My diet was no starches and lower fat. If you eat starches it leaves room for protein. My protein was 70 minimum and 120+ on most days. I ate a lot of shrimp cocktail, seared scallops, boiled eggs, some mozzarella, Mexican Coke, berries and watermelon, iced coffees with milk and sugar, no added oils.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Thank you!Do you know what that threshold is?I know that the 4g/day come from a study done on mice and it showed that anything above that threshold makes them more prone to cancer.But how many grams of PUFA can we eat in a day without them getting stored?

According to Ray, the only way to keep PUFA from accumulating is to eat 0,5 grams or less per day while keeping fat intake low, which is really hard. See the conversation below between tca30- and Ray:

_______________________________________
tca300: You have repeatedly mentioned PUFA accumulates with aging. My question is, if someone in their 20's started eating a diet with less than 2 grams of PUFA per day, and maintained that low PUFA intake permanently into old age, would PUFA still accumulate with age? Thank you!

Ray: I think some would still accumulate in the fat tissues, unless total fat intake was low, and PUFA intake was half a gram or less.

( from Can You Deplete PUFA While Still Eating Butter, Chocolate, Etc )
_______________________________________

I personally can't do it without sacrificing nutrition. Calorie restriction also helps to burn the PUFAs before they are stored, but it comes with its own set of problems. You don't have to go ultra low in PUFA to see benefits though. Simply limiting it will already reduce prostaglandin synthesis and lower inflammation as a consequence.


This thread has some info on this: 4 Grams Of PUFA A Day Is Not A Threshold

i havent looked, is choline needed for sugar processing? Ray likes choline but only in minimal amounts around the rda, iirc it is pro methylation like methionine and he doesnt like it. but i think even 1% milk has like 42mg per cup. maybe whole milk has more. liver is i think 150mg per oz or something? the combination of milk and liver should give a good amount otherwise ground beef has some and eggs have a lot

Liver is great way to add choline without increasing PUFA much. And you get much more copper, zinc, b12, b6 and folate, if we equalize liver and eggs by their amount of choline.

Beef, raw, liver, variety meats and by-products nutrition facts and analysis.

www.nutritionvalue.org

Egg, raw, whole nutrition facts and analysis.

www.nutritionvalue.org

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I have been interested in health for many years, going from the Blood Type Diet (which i roughly still adhere to), then Paleo for a couple of years, then Keto for 4 months (that was brutal) to Ray Peat. The Ray Peat diet, by far, is the easiest, most versatile and decadent diet I have ever done or never heard of. I think the problem for most "Peaters" is it that there aren't many conveniences. For cooks like myself the possibilities are endless! I love it!