Vaccines

[jimmy5493]

Question is:

Is it true or not that vaccines saved a lot of lives? Like smallpox -- people don't die of smallpox anymore, right? Or polio, or whatever?

My dad always brings this up -- that there's a lot less deaths now -- and I don't really no a good response to this. My sense is that most of these gains come from antibiotics, and I personally would rather have a healthy population with more deaths than a nation of autistics -- but I don't really know how to go against this basic point of pro-vaccination that vaccines have saved a lot of lives. Basically the narrative that before vaccines everyone was dying all the time.

Hope this made sense.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Graphs of infectious diseases show that their incidences plummeted precipitously before their vaccines were used extensively or even introduced. Infectious diseases were reduced by better living conditions (abundant cheap energy, better nutrition, cleaner air/water, sanitation). An example is measles:

 

[Perry Staltic]

Graph correlating polio, polio vaccine and pesticide pollution.

 

[amd]

Smallpox is a double-stranded DNA virus.

Coronavirus is a single-stranded RNA virus.

Complexities of Viral Mutation Rates

On a per-site level, DNA viruses typically have mutation rates on the order of 10−8 to 10−6 substitutions per nucleotide site per cell infection (s/n/c). RNA viruses, however, have higher mutation rates that range between 10−6 and 10−4 s/n/c.

Despite variable per-site rates, species with smaller genomes exhibit a negative correlation between genomic mutation rate and genome size, such that the per-genome mutation rate is relatively constant.

Adaptive Value of High Mutation Rates of RNA Viruses: Separating Causes from Consequences

As a consequence of the lack of proofreading activity of RNA virus polymerases, new viral genetic variants are constantly created. RNA viruses readily adapt to changing environmental conditions. Therefore, the high mutation rate of RNA viruses compared with DNA organisms is responsible for their enormous adaptive capacity.

The above syllogism, with some variation, is deeply rooted in the thinking of many virologists: RNA viruses mutate at the maximum error rate compatible with maintaining the integrity of genetic information (i.e., the error threshold) because this would allow them to quickly find the beneficial mutations needed for adaptation

However, the argument that the more mutations are generated, the faster adaptation proceeds is flawed because it ignores the fact that the vast majority of mutations are deleterious, hence hindering adaptation, as shown by recent theoretical developments. Therefore, the adaptive value of the RNA virus extreme mutation rate has to be carefully reconsidered, and new alternative explanations, beyond a purely mechanistic level, should be taken into consideration.

 

[Nicky]

Vaccines are a racket run by the medical mafia.
Here's some history for you, remember though once you enter this rabbit hole, there's no turning back.

THE VIRAL (INFECTIOUS DISEASE AND EPIDEMIC) FEAR RACKET

Viral fear racket

whale.to

What was interesting about the smallpox vaccine is that those who were vaccinated this ialso ncluded children ended up with gonorrhea.
How did that happen?

 

[jb116]

I just don't understand the think nor will I ever. The fact that people overlook the strength, resilience, and history of the human being, how we gotten this far with just a mere blip of vaccine use on the timeline of the world and they continue to believe we need them; that the vaccine somehow brought us to this point.
I don't want a vaccine of any sort.

 

[Lollipop2]

I just don't understand the think nor will I ever. The fact that people overlook the strength, resilience, and history of the human being, how we gotten this far with just a mere blip of vaccine use on the timeline of the world and they continue to believe we need them; that the vaccine somehow brought us to this point.
I don't want a vaccine of any sort.

This is exactly what I say! Pleeeease people, these things have coevolved with humans - never needed vaccines for millions of years if you include hominids.

 

[jb116]

This is exactly what I say! Pleeeease people, these things have coevolved with humans - never needed vaccines for millions of years if you include hominids.

Right. And I actually wonder what harm is being done in terms of this coevolution being essentially severed via vaccinations and now, more and more physical isolation. I imagine there is an intricacy responsible partially for the efficiency of immunity, not only between organism and pathogen but organism and organism.

 

[Lollipop2]

Right. And I actually wonder what harm is being done in terms of this coevolution being essentially severed via vaccinations and now, more and more physical isolation. I imagine there is an intricacy responsible partially for the efficiency of immunity, not only between organism and pathogen but organism and organism.

Interesting. Sounds correct.

 

[Elderflower j58]

Vaccines, Did You Know?

US law classifies vaccines as unavoidably unsafe. What does that even mean?! It's unsafe but it's unavoidable? Is it unavoidable because they make billions of dollars?

brandnewtube.com

This is a precious gem of information I think it's from 2011

 

[tankasnowgod]

My dad always brings this up -- that there's a lot less deaths now -- and I don't really no a good response to this. My sense is that most of these gains come from antibiotics, and I personally would rather have a healthy population with more deaths than a nation of autistics -- but I don't really know how to go against this basic point of pro-vaccination that vaccines have saved a lot of lives. Basically the narrative that before vaccines everyone was dying all the time.

I don't know if there's "a lot less death." No one has become immortal, nor are there a bunch of 100+ year olds running around. Living to 1,000 or 15,000 or whatever seems very far fetched.

There has been some extension of lifespan, but that is more like an additional decade or so. Perry Staltic posted some solid graphs showing the decline in mortality from several diseases before vaccines were even introduced. Probably the biggest factor in this was improvements in sanitation. I think this article details it nicely, and it should be noted, some of these changes started as early as the 1700s-

Draining the swamp — LessWrong

In an earlier post, I outlined our main weapons against infectious disease, including vaccines, antibiotics, antiseptics, pest control, sanitation, a…

www.lesswrong.com

Draining the swamp: How sanitation helped fight disease

Of all the technologies against infectious disease, which mattered most? A data-driven approach

rootsofprogress.org

Garbagemen and Plumbers have a lot more to do with longer (and healthier) lifespans than any vaccine.

 

[Peater]

I am currently working my way through this.

I am only on page 3 and already:

Think it is worth sharing
Am shaking my head in disbelief at the corruption and/or stupidity and/or evil

 

[Elderflower j58]

‘Vaccine Secrets’: What Parents Should Know Before They Vaccinate Their Kids

“Vaccine Secrets,” an animated video created by parents of vaccine-injured children, fact checks the many statements used to convince parents that vaccines are safe and effective.

childrenshealthdefense.org

short and to the point