Urgent Wish List For Depression And Anxiety Meds For 20 Year Old

[Constatine]

I used to swear by this in a herbal tea. They call it holy basil?? I think. Great suggestion.

I'm thinking back to basics: enough calories, enough protein. Progesterone.

Sipping on some tulsi tea right now. +1

 

[RedStaR]

I'm thinking back to basics: enough calories, enough protein. Progesterone.

This is a painkiller rather than a treatment.

You need to find the stress trigger and eliminate it. It is in her environment, watch very closely, and keep an open mind on what could cause her a stress reaction. From the food she eats, the people she is around, the color of light exposed to, lighting in the bedroom at night, electronics around the house, shampoo she uses, exercise she does (or doesn't). Everything.

 

[Makrosky]

I like this thinking because I also observe and see patterns and try and work with them. Lisuride I don't think is available in this country but I will do some digging. There is a very big likelihood that online orders won't get through customs because of ineptitude, theft, inertia, confusion about what the heck it is and whether or not it is allowed. We're talking about attitudes that are stupid obstructive lazy and just not interested. I've done some asking at couriers like DHL which seem more promising but again, they are unfamiliar with these substances and can't say for sure. What it means is that for the most part I'm stuck with what doctors will prescribe though they are less of a closed door here than I read on this forum, what others go through with doctors and tests and TSH ranges and so on. For example my doctor has been prepared to prescribe pregnenolone and throid meds in my case as TSH was once out of range (once, in many years, once. by which time I was at rock bottom. Anyways...)



Mostly not but I'll remind her.




She gets stressed, wound up, anxious, then can't sleep. Very stressed. She aims very very high academically but does not have the support in place for her body and mind.


I used to swear by this in a herbal tea. They call it holy basil?? I think. Great suggestion.

I'm thinking back to basics: enough calories, enough protein. Progesterone.

Yes, Holy Basil it is. And yes, complicated issue : either she lowers the self high academic expectations or ups her metabolism to match the expectations. IMHO it's not worth to use SSRIs to catch the expectations. They might be overinflated by her "superego"... something like " If I'm not the best I'm gonna be a looser" and stuff like that. Poisonous. Really poisonous. In those cases I really like Albert Ellis (founder of REBT therapy) ideas. She has irrational ideas with catastrophic outcomes, but it is fake and only exists on her mind. The fact that she is internally bombarded with orders impossible to acomplish creates huge ammount of pressure and anxiety. Complicated issue indeed. I'm just guessing by the details you provided.

 

[mujuro]

If you don't mind disclosing, which country do you reside? Perhaps someone lives there also and has experience importing prescription drugs.

 

[denise]

Yes thanks for the advice. She sometimes tries to stop overnight and I can tell what a toll it takes on her to do it this way. I agree they are helping, in a way, and shouldn't be stopped abruptly.

A couple more things about quitting smoking (for the future, if/when she's ready):
- When she's ready to quit, the absolute easiest way to do it is to read Allen Carr's book, the Easy Way to Stop Smoking. You just read the book and then you automatically quit. It sounds fantastical, but it really works. No willpower or pain required.
- BUT! One thing Carr gets wrong is that smoking is 100% (or maybe 99%) psychological, and so there's no real physical aspect to quitting. This is false, especially for certain people who are self-medicating for physical issues and not simply emotional ones. So it's best to already be in a good physical state before quitting, and then because quitting can put you immediately into a hypoglycemic state, one thing I've found very helpful is to sip on juice all day long, until your body gets used to the lack of nicotine (and the boost in blood sugar that it provides). There may be other physical stuff that comes up too, but this is a big one. I sure wish I'd known about it earlier.

 

[alywest]

I like this thinking because I also observe and see patterns and try and work with them. Lisuride I don't think is available in this country but I will do some digging. There is a very big likelihood that online orders won't get through customs because of ineptitude, theft, inertia, confusion about what the heck it is and whether or not it is allowed. We're talking about attitudes that are stupid obstructive lazy and just not interested. I've done some asking at couriers like DHL which seem more promising but again, they are unfamiliar with these substances and can't say for sure. What it means is that for the most part I'm stuck with what doctors will prescribe though they are less of a closed door here than I read on this forum, what others go through with doctors and tests and TSH ranges and so on. For example my doctor has been prepared to prescribe pregnenolone and throid meds in my case as TSH was once out of range (once, in many years, once. by which time I was at rock bottom. Anyways...)

I know this might sound crazy but I'm sure you've heard of people "micro-dosing" things like mushrooms on this site and elsewhere perhaps. It is actually being used by some professional therapists here in the states. I'm sure different people have different ideas of what micro-dosing is, but an article I read with a psychological counselor said he would tell his patients that if they even saw a rock sparkling or something that minor that they took too much. A woman who was a computer programmer or something like that said it completely changed her life for the better.

HAving taken magic mushrooms myself a few times in my life I can imagine the occasional use of them helps your daughter because it shows everything in a different light. The positive effects of it can last days, weeks, or even years. That's why micro-dosing is appealing to me, it must open some sort of neural pathway, open different parts of the brain that most people can't access normally. I always tried to incorporate something creative into my "trips," I found it could have really powerful effects. Like painting or even walking in nature. Just taking mushrooms as a social activity doesn't necessarily have the same impact. It can be an opportunity to go inward. However, it can't be the only thing you do for improvement.

 

[lampofred]

Too many people in here recommending drugs as opposed to ways of increasing body energy, which is the fundamental issue here. I'm worried stuff like lisuride/tinaeptine/etc is only a short-term bandage that will make things worse in the long-term. Fundamental ways to improve body energy are increased zinc intake, increased magnesium intake, low doses of coffee taken as food instead of as a stimulant, increased calories, increased sunlight, increased protein, more nutritious foods, aspirin and vitamin e to reverse the estrogen and serotonin dominant I am almost certain she's in, daily grated carrot to clean out the bowel.

Something like lisuride/metergoline/etc might be best to supply the initial motivation to change one's lifestyle but probably could not be a substitute for said lifestyle change.

 

[meatbag]

Wow, you gave such a thorough response, I'm sure many people will be interested in reading it as reference as well.

I also mentioned energin, but brought up thiamine specifically in the context that at certain high enough levels it can actually behave as a carbonic anhydrase inhibitor, like acetazolamide:

"it is specifically the low pH caused by high lactate that is a likely cause of the mental/mood disturbances. As we all know, high lactate is a sign of poor metabolism and specifically poor metabolism (wasting) of glucose. It can be caused by many factors including hypothyroidism, vitamin B1 (thiamine) deficiency, elevated FFA/lipolysis/cortisol/adrenaline/serotonin/prolactin/etc. This confirms once again the metabolic origin of these conditions, just as Ray first wrote about 40 yeas ago. And, as the post above suggests, dietary measures to improve metabolism and lower lactate levels can be quite therapeutic. In addition to acetazolamide (and other carbonic anhydrase inhibitors), thiamine is well-known to lower lactate due to its role as a cofactor of the enzyme PDH. Another way to lower lactate is to increase the NAD/NADH ratio, which can effectively be done by things like niacinamide and methylene blue, as well as thyroid. Needless to say, both methylene blue and niacinamide/niacin have been used in the past to successfully treat mental disorders. I posted a few human studies with methylene blue and I think most people here are aware of the trials run by Hoffer back in the 1960s and 1970s.
Niacinamide Causes Dramatic Increase In Nad And Fall In Lactate
Methylene Blue As A Treatment For Manic Depressive Psychosis
A Controlled Trial Of Methylene Blue In Severe Depressive Illness
" -@haidut

Disruption Of The Circadian Clock In Mice Increases Intestinal Permeability
by Such_Saturation
Circadian Clock Dysruptions Driven By Adrenal Activity (cortisol)
by haidut
Vitamin A Plays an Essential Role in Setting the Circadian Rhythm and Allowing Good Sleep
by Chris Masterjohn ; posted on the forum by Dan Wich

"It kills me when I hear about kids playing on their iPads & smart phones late at night. At least get some blue-blockers! (coupon code LAGAKOS is still good for 15% off Carbonshade and Spectra479.)" :) From Calories Proper; The poor, misunderstood calorie . The site author,Bill Lagakos, has a TON of info on the importance on circadian rhythm and the different things that influence it.

 

[aquaman]

I don't know why everyone is so focused on the supplements with this one.
The girl is clearly not eating enough, and she's not eating nutritious foods. If you can't convince her to stop being so orthorexic, I'm not sure what options you have.
Cyproheptadine is really the only thing I would give someone in this case. It will stimulate her appetite, and I guarantee she will find out very quickly that she cannot possibly feel satiated on a vegan diet.

+1

Less alcohol, less weed, better circadian rhythms, much more food and more outdoor time or red spectrum /250w light bulbs could be enough without the supplements

 

[SQu]

I really have to process so much of this mine of helpful insightful information and I would really recommend that this thread is somehow bookmarked for others in this situation.

These sum it up I think:

And yes, complicated issue : either she lowers the self high academic expectations or ups her metabolism to match the expectations.

Too many people in here recommending drugs as opposed to ways of increasing body energy, which is the fundamental issue here. I

↑
I don't know why everyone is so focused on the supplements with this one.
The girl is clearly not eating enough, and she's not eating nutritious foods. If you can't convince her to stop being so orthorexic, I'm not sure what options you have.
Cyproheptadine is really the only thing I would give someone in this case. It will stimulate her appetite, and I guarantee she will find out very quickly that she cannot possibly feel satiated on a vegan diet.
+1
Less alcohol, less weed, better circadian rhythms, much more food and more outdoor time or red spectrum /250w light bulbs could be enough without the supplements

Very true. Thank you. Luckily cyprotheptadine is over the counter here. I find it very helpful myself.

So it's best to already be in a good physical state before quitting, and then because quitting can put you immediately into a hypoglycemic state, one thing I've found very helpful is to sip on juice all day long, until your body gets used to the lack of nicotine (and the boost in blood sugar that it provides). There may be other physical stuff that comes up too, but this is a big one. I sure wish I'd known about it earlier.

Great advice. Thank you for sharing.

HAving taken magic mushrooms myself a few times in my life I can imagine the occasional use of them helps your daughter because it shows everything in a different light. The positive effects of it can last days, weeks, or even years. That's why micro-dosing is appealing to me, it must open some sort of neural pathway, open different parts of the brain that most people can't access normally. I always tried to incorporate something creative into my "trips," I found it could have really powerful effects. Like painting or even walking in nature. Just taking mushrooms as a social activity doesn't necessarily have the same impact. It can be an opportunity to go inward. However, it can't be the only thing you do for improvement.

Yes. She is interested in exactly the same way and knows there are limits to what it can do.

Fundamental ways to improve body energy are increased zinc intake, increased magnesium intake, low doses of coffee taken as food instead of as a stimulant, increased calories, increased sunlight, increased protein, more nutritious foods, aspirin and vitamin e to reverse the estrogen and serotonin dominant I am almost certain she's in, daily grated carrot to clean out the bowel.

Yes. I know the gut is a big deal here though few symptoms.

So if she isn't gonna stop being vegan then gotta go for the best vegan diet possible! which in my very humble and innowayexpert opinion is probably;
Potatoes
oranges
Mushrooms
White rice
Lentils
Coconut oil (for cooking and stuff)
some dark chocolate
Carrots
:)
Pretty sure you hit all your nutrients with that except maybe zinc or calcium depending on the person. I'd run it thru Cronometer(dot)com but they just changed their User agreement and privacy policy and it SUX... so I'm boycotting

Great. I'm going to cook like this for her on vac, 2.5 months of seeing if we can really make it work.
They did? That's a blow. What changes are bad?

So maybe a coral calcium supplement or something like that would be a good addition

Luckily she is prepared to eat eggshell. I'll prepare her lots.

Thanks for the vegan angle.

And she's getting a dog, so

If you don't mind disclosing, which country do you reside? Perhaps someone lives there also and has experience importing prescription drugs.

South Africa but members here are few, quiet, or no longer resident as far as I can tell.

 

[mostlylurking]

weed is estrogenic. low protein keeps liver from clearing estrogen. Her estrogen is probably already high because of her age. Increase her protein. cut out the weed. eat carrot salad every day. get her thyroid checked. Low thyroid causes mental issues. cut out all PUFAs. Put her on some niacinamide. in other words, follow Dr. Peat. She is self medicating with the drugs. Not good. the niacinamide will help. Read Dr. Peat articles, not just this forum. I have 2 siblings with schizophrenia. It is a horrible disease and destroys lives and entire families. Follow Dr. Peat.

 

[Regina]

Warmer, more calm. That combined with the high doses of b vitamins, particularly thiamine (1500 mg a day for carbonic anhydrase inhibition, equivalent to acetazolamide), has been consistently great. I think cypro can interfere with sleep if taken at night, so I usually take lisuride only at night, or neither if I'm feeling calm with progesterone alone.

Wow! 1500 B1. Neat.

 

[alywest]

Wow! 1500 B1. Neat.

So far so good, just started it so I'll see if it continues to work. As it is I'm feeling a lot more energetic during the day but can still sleep at night. Must have been reallllllly deficient.

 

[SQu]

weed is estrogenic. low protein keeps liver from clearing estrogen. Her estrogen is probably already high because of her age. Increase her protein. cut out the weed. eat carrot salad every day. get her thyroid checked. Low thyroid causes mental issues. cut out all PUFAs. Put her on some niacinamide. in other words, follow Dr. Peat. She is self medicating with the drugs. Not good. the niacinamide will help. Read Dr. Peat articles, not just this forum. I have 2 siblings with schizophrenia. It is a horrible disease and destroys lives and entire families. Follow Dr. Peat.

I've sent her this post. Thank you mostlylurking.

 

[SQu]

She needs to do something she enjoys, a hobby. I stopped doing the things I enjoyed, to try "focus" on getting my health back. This was entirely counterproductive, and the things I enjoy doing bring about better health.

She might be getting a puppy soon after term ends. I'm following this up. She's an animal lover, and they do a lot for her. Thank you for the reminder of the hobby.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Thyroid is often low in depression.

 

[Murray]

Look into negative ions. She may be in a very low negative ion environment and simply need a good negative ion generator in her room.

 

[Frankdee20]

Do NOT. I repeat do NOT give your daughter any anti depressant drugs.

I don’t think Wellbutrin or Mirtazepine is on par with SSRI

 

[SQu]

An update for all you kind people ...

She's now home for 2.5 months. She has a gorgeous GSD puppy who is helping her with her circadian rhythm! (Unexpected bonus) and of course is a very involving hobby .
She's been to the doc for some homeopathic stuff and will have blood tests in a few weeks time, in time with her cycle.
Will test thyroid, estrogen, progesterone, vitamin D, iron.

I'd love some more suggestions for bloods.

She's grumpy but there are a few good signs. a couple of better nights' sleep. also one completely sleepless night Is drawing again (talented artist)
eating well (vegan) and though very slim is not worrying me. (53kg, 5 foot 2 or 3 height). I know the picture I'm looking for - posture etc - and other than rather pale, I think she looks well.
I'm giving her some of the below:

With all this in mind, I would say to address ur daughters lifestyle..

Yes. She's off dining hall food now for good, renting a house with nice people next year and looking forward to it, many things will change for the better

Look at high dose thiamine (B1), lots of niacinamide, biotin, etc. Careful with b12 and folate

B1 500mg, should i increase??
B3 100mg
no B12 or folate but as a vegan I need to consider B12

Someone mentioned zinc and I'm looking into how much a day and in what form if no oysters or liver. Lozenges?

I took wellbutrin maybe 3 or 4 years ago. It definitely makes you not depressed... but I felt like a very productive robot on it. And there were some weird emotional sides, like I was becoming out of touch with the full range of human emotions.

I think that effect would be particularly bad for her, and distressing.

This is probably what your daughter is missing and thyroid meds taken at bedtime or middle of the night will atrificially boost cortisol production. It is called the CT3M method (the circadian T3 method).

Holding thumbs for being out of range on TSH as symptomatically I have thought since adolescence, she's hypothyroid.

The mental symptoms are most likely gut related and metabolism related

Think so too. She's having a lot of coconut milk which won't be helping.

would suggest not urging her to quit smoking while she's in this state.

She is smoking , a box of 20 lasts a week. Have noted the Allen Carr book but she needs to get her blood sugar sorted first as you say

+1 on the metergoline idea

on my wish list. will pursue

Also has she tried vitamin d? Some people are very susceptible to depression if they aren't getting enough.

On the list for testing

Magnesium along with P5P.

Mg definitely definitely helps. I'm giving it to her. how much P5P? Just read association with ADHD (ADHD is what her new therapist thinks is the real underlying issue). @haidut posted on B6 and ADHD but I'm not sure on the P5P dosage. It comes in 50mg pills and for myself I take a quarter a night.

She was diagnosed at 6 years old on with ADHD but I hated the reputation of ritalin so tried dealing with it with diet vitamins and homeopathy for which she is not currently thanking me
She takes 18mg concerta around exam time but wants to take year round, that's what the docs think. I'm going along with it for now as the lesser of the various other evils.

Look about Tulsi, it's an adaptogenic herb sacred in India (I think that idea will make her much more attracted to use it).

She loves it, has been drinking it, we'll stock up :)

- When she's ready to quit, the absolute easiest way to do it is to read Allen Carr's book, the Easy Way to Stop Smoking. You just read the book and then you automatically quit. It sounds fantastical, but it really works. No willpower or pain required.

Made a note.

Daily walks for an hour just around my area, taking different routes every day, helped me immensely. The lack of exercise also contributed to worse sleep, and poor sleep itself can cause a whole range of issues. Do what you can to ensure a good nights sleep. I felt many times that "if only I could get a good nights sleep, everything will sort itself."

Meditation can be useful, I quite like the "Headspace" phone app that you can get on the android phone store. At my worst I used it daily, but I have found the better I get, the more I forget to use it. I had never done any meditation prior to this though, so perhaps your daughter would not find it useful if she is experienced.

Weed can cause many issues relating to anxiety and depression,

She's connected weed to depression, it's too random and takes her down too easily so she's stopped . She carries on smoking for now and I think she should as stopping dead on two big things is an issue. Alcohol less frequent. Did a meditation course which helps

Vitamin D Is Dopaminergic And Decreases Obesity And Addiction Behaviors
---

"In theory, anything that reduces prolactin will likely also reduce estrogen and vice versa. So, since vitamin A is anti-estrogenic I wondered if there is evidence that vitamin A will lower prolactin and/or increase dopamine. Below is some evidence that vitamin A is indeed dopaminergic and lowers prolactin. The human dose was about 100,000 IU per day or pre-formed all-trans retinoic acid.
Given the human study showing significant fall in prolactin from 300mg vitamin E daily, this likely makes the vitamin A + vitamin E combo a viable option for people wanting to reduce prolactin / estrogen."
Vitamin A is dopaminergic and reduces prolactin in humans

thanks for list of dopaminergic things. I'm giving her A, we're testing D, suspect it will be low in spite of hours outdoors and sunny climate just out of tropics.

 

[raypeatclips]

@SQu I wouldn't try stop her smoking tobacco at the moment in my opinion.