Unpredictability, Learning, And The Helpless State

[Amazoniac]

I remember hearing from Gershom Zajicek that when people are overwhelmed with stimulus, they seek predictability. It's about balancing how much you're capable of being exposed to and process. If energy is low for too long, we adopt those habits to preserve it. The problem is that learning and retention involves the unpredictable factor. When things are predictable you're not learning. If you're someone that keeps seeking mostly reinforcing material, this ist for you.

When people complain about helplessness, they're usually in a predictable stagnant state. That's why a change (even if stressful for a while) can expand possibilities.* Some time ago I was being trained by Davezord and I asked for his validation on the following comment before exhibiting it in Louvre next to burtlan's self-portrait:

Dig this poetry: if a birdzord waits for the perfect first flight, it will never leave the ground.

It's possible to stay too long waiting to gather enough energy for a smooth recovery, running the risk of limiting the possibilities and the confidence being abaled by each failure.

- Settling
- Importance of unpredictability for rayward responses in primate dopamine neurons

Now just to leave the thread with a light and uplifting tone:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/5-common-regrets-of-the-dying.11176/

*I predicted that it was possible to insert a link while avoiding the intermediate words, but I realized it's not. I learned my lesson.
By the way, I hope you like me more for inserting these links because they take a lot of time.

 

[Wagner83]

This is one of the major questions we face. Ray talks about protective/supporting substances but also how environment and food rule them all. The use of substances to get out of a bad state and expand possibilities, improve environment makes sense if it works as intended, but if energy isn't too low pushing yourself should be great (something frowned upon on this forum at times). Where is the line between the two though?
You linked to the PUFA-free birds, this is exactly the cases which I find very interesting, these guys abused/used various drugs, but more importantly, LSD, and look at how creative they were and what they achieved. Could an infrequent LSD trip expand all possiblities and move health dramatically forward?
From my experience the right amount of stimulus can make one improve but too much can really do the opposite and dig us further in the graveyard. Mark manson wrote that if you are afraid of doing something then it's a good sign you should be doing it. Things which matter can be frightening and make one paralysed. By the way Ray talks a lot about digestive health and major things seem to happen there when facing a stressful event, so perhaps cleaning the gut with cascara/charcoal and digestible foods is the best way to handle stress when it shows up (rather than crumble and fail).
If facing stress and overcoming it while dealing with novelty and excitement is necessary to improve (using substances can prevent that), too much stress and failure are known causes of bad health (substances can help). One obvious analogy would be working out and it's effects on health depending on how it's done.

 

[Amazoniac]

This is one of the major questions we face. Ray talks about protective/supporting substances but also how environment and food rule them all. The use of substances to get out of a bad state and expand possibilities, improve environment makes sense if it works as intended, but if energy isn't too low pushing yourself should be great (something frowned upon on this forum at times). Where is the line between the two though?
You linked to the PUFA-free birds, this is exactly the cases which I find very interesting, these guys abused/used various drugs, but more importantly, LSD, and look at how creative they were and what they achieved. Could an infrequent LSD trip expand all possiblities and move health dramatically forward?
From my experience the right amount of stimulus can make one improve but too much can really do the opposite and dig us further in the graveyard. Mark manson wrote that if you are afraid of doing something then it's a good sign you should be doing it. Things which matter can be frightening and make one paralysed. By the way Ray talks a lot about digestive health and major things seem to happen there when facing a stressful event, so perhaps cleaning the gut with cascara/charcoal and digestible foods is the best way to handle stress when it shows up (rather than crumble and fail).
If facing stress and overcoming it while dealing with novelty and excitement is necessary to improve (using substances can prevent that), too much stress and failure are known causes of bad health (substances can help). One obvious analogy would be working out and it's effects on health depending on how it's done.

My concern with adaptogens is when they become.. copeogens. When there's something that gets gurus out of that state artificially in such a convenient way, you're prone to accomodate and feel tempted to seek the easier fix than the more tortuous path. That's why on the "Zeus' life manual" thread I made the association with addiction.
http://4umi.com/blake/marriage/proverbs4

Improvement makes strait roads, but the crooked roads without Improvement, are roads of Genius.

To learn you can't keep numbing yourself to the negative side of an experience.

 

[lollipop]

To learn you can't keep numbing yourself to the negative side of an experience.

+1 profound @Amazoniac.

 

[Amazoniac]

+1 profound @Amazoniac.

Do you have a suggestion for something that I can reply to extend your validation? I can't think of any further observation right now but I'm still interest in the gratification.

 

[lollipop]

Do you have a suggestion for something that I can reply to extend your validation? I can't think of any further observation right now but I'm still interest in the gratification.

Think catabolic state vs. anabolic state, contraction vs. expansion, metabolic health leads to generating energy for life, expansion, growth, metabolic un-health leads to catabolic contracted numb state to preserve life force and its life.

How many choose the metabolic healthy state to learn about life? Few.

Suffering is often the catalyst for change.

 

[lollipop]

PS @Amazoniac, it requires vital energy to truly smile. A catabolic, life preserving state doesn’t have the energy to joke, laugh, smile...uses all available life energy to defend, preserve.

 

[G Forrest]

Think catabolic state vs. anabolic state, contraction vs. expansion, metabolic health leads to generating energy for life, expansion, growth, metabolic un-health leads to catabolic contracted numb state to preserve life force and its life.

How many choose the metabolic healthy state to learn about life? Few.

Suffering is often the catalyst for change.

This topic reminds me of Ray's newsletter from November, where he discusses the negative implications of "hormesis" - the idea that a little bit of something, even if it's a harmful substance/activity, is good for you. "A little pain never hurt anyone", like that Margo Price song. Ray suggests though, that this approach is harmful, and it's better "to optimize protective factors", which I agree with, since a healthy body will naturally have the energy to move forward and cultivate enriching/learning experiences.

The use of substances to get out of a bad state and expand possibilities, improve environment makes sense if it works as intended, but if energy isn't too low pushing yourself should be great (something frowned upon on this forum at times). Where is the line between the two though?

I think though, that most people living in current society are in a chronic state of poor health/low energy production from all the stressors of the environment, to the point where they don't even consciously realize it, so are in an endless state of learned helplessness. Adding more stress by exerting more energy to get out that state only exacerbates the problem. But if energy is good, I think a person naturally will be inspired to pursue interests; the world will spark more fascination overall, so that there isn't a need to "push yourself", but rather you are in a natural state of flow to explore those things your are interested in.

 

[Amazoniac]

Think catabolic state vs. anabolic state, contraction vs. expansion, metabolic health leads to generating energy for life, expansion, growth, metabolic un-health leads to catabolic contracted numb state to preserve life force and its life.

How many choose the metabolic healthy state to learn about life? Few.

Suffering is often the catalyst for change.

I believe when it's uncomfortable enough, people won't stay in such state for longer than they should without making some drastic changes. There's more compellment (is this how it's spelled?) to face problems (instead of numb yourself to them) or choose to cope through substance abuse. There was a thread some time ago about social withdrawal. This always existed, but on the good old days (when people used mercury as wound desinfectant) gurus would have to abdicate a lot of things in order to rest and recover. Nowadays the story is different, and people can stimulate their brain through computers/webzord as if they were leading their lifes normally. Food and purchases can be delivered at your door, exercise can be.. indoors, there's social interaction and sense of community belonging, entertainment of all sorts, etc. Since I linked a Pink Floyd song, here's another one that could perhaps describe the situation.

PS @Amazoniac, it requires vital energy to truly smile. A catabolic, life preserving state doesn’t have the energy to joke, laugh, smile...uses all available life energy to defend, preserve.

Joke is related to tension, being able to make problems seem smaller in a stressful world is a desired trait in my opinion. True laugher doesn't need jokes. Another good one from the shaman above:

Excess of sorrow laughs, excess of joy weeps.

 

[lollipop]

I believe when it's uncomfortable enough, people won't stay in such state for longer than they should without making some drastic changes. There's more compellment (is this how it's spelled?) to face problems (instead of numb yourself to them) or choose to cope through substance abuse. There was a thread some time ago about social withdrawal. This always existed, but on the good old days (when people used mercury as wound desinfectant) gurus would have to abdicate a lot of things in order to rest and recover. Nowadays the story is different, and people can stimulate their brain through computers/webzord as if they were leading their lifes normally. Food and purchases can be delivered at your door, exercise can be.. indoors, there's social interaction and sense of community belonging, entertainment of all sorts, etc. Since I linked a Pink Floyd song, here's another one that could perhaps describe the situation.

Joke is related to tension, being able to make problems seem smaller in a stressful world is a desired trait in my opinion. True laugher doesn't need jokes. Another good one from the shaman above:

Nice separation of joking and laughter.

Wanted to make another distinction:

The DESIRE to joke —> requires energy
The DESIRE to laugh —> requires energy

The ACT of joking —> requires greater energy than desire

The ACT of laughter —> requires greater energy than desire

The GREATEST energetic hurdle is the initial system energy to desire a smile, a joke, a laugh.

 

[Wagner83]

Think catabolic state vs. anabolic state, contraction vs. expansion, metabolic health leads to generating energy for life, expansion, growth, metabolic un-health leads to catabolic contracted numb state to preserve life force and its life.

How many choose the metabolic healthy state to learn about life? Few.

Suffering is often the catalyst for change.

You supplement thyroid and said it increased your energy and well being by a lot (not that it's contradictory with what you said).

This topic reminds me of Ray's newsletter from November, where he discusses the negative implications of "hormesis" - the idea that a little bit of something, even if it's a harmful substance/activity, is good for you. "A little pain never hurt anyone", like that Margo Price song. Ray suggests though, that this approach is harmful, and it's better "to optimize protective factors", which I agree with, since a healthy body will naturally have the energy to move forward and cultivate enriching/learning experiences.

I think though, that most people living in current society are in a chronic state of poor health/low energy production from all the stressors of the environment, to the point where they don't even consciously realize it, so are in an endless state of learned helplessness. Adding more stress by exerting more energy to get out that state only exacerbates the problem. But if energy is good, I think a person naturally will be inspired to pursue interests; the world will spark more fascination overall, so that there isn't a need to "push yourself", but rather you are in a natural state of flow to explore those things your are interested in.

The idea is also that once you make a change in your environment, even if it was stressful temporarily, the resulting benefits take over, and you know you did it on your own, you've learned to deal with the stress and your situation better. I think it's a circle, if you do better of course things are easier but if you're feeling like crap, making the effort can also be rewarding and move health in the right direction. Like ammo-maniac said, you get used to relying on substances, some start to think the high they feel on a substance should be the norm and less is unhealthy, or anything negative happening to them is unhealthy. When the substances are out you meet reality. I know haidut and perhaps Ray have differing views, I'm not too sure about mine.

 

[Amazoniac]

A good example is Tarmander's story. He could've insisted on calming down his body that was going awry from EM radiation exposure but it wouldn't solve the problem.
When you reach for substances that ease a bad situation, you're prone to stay in it longer than you should without addressing its cause. If this goes on for too long, every attempt to improve the situation that doesn't address the cause is perceived as a failure, and failure after failure can lead to the helpless state.

 

[Wagner83]

A good example is Tarmander's story. He could've insisted on calming down his body that was going awry from EM radiation exposure but it wouldn't solve the problem.
When you reach for substances that ease a bad situation, you're prone to stay in it longer than you should without addressing its cause. If this goes on for too long, every attempt to improve the situation that doesn't address the cause is perceived as a failure, and failure after failure can lead to the helpless state.

When you talk about causes, I think that unlike Ray or haidut you do not consider, for the vast majority of cases, hormonal imbalances to be a cause but rather a consequence. If one considers hormonal imbalances, deficiency of dht (sometimes from early childhood), deficiency of thyroid as cause of the issues (inability to handle stress, mood swings, whatever) then addressing the cause leads to the use of particular supplements.

 

[lollipop]

You supplement thyroid and said it increased your energy and well being by a lot (not that it's contradictory with what you said).


The idea is also that once you make a change in your environment, even if it was stressful temporarily, the resulting benefits take over, and you know you did it on your own, you've learned to deal with the stress and your situation better. I think it's a circle, if you do better of course things are easier but if you're feeling like crap, making the effort can also be rewarding and move health in the right direction. Like ammo-maniac said, you get used to relying on substances, some start to think the high they feel on a substance should be the norm and less is unhealthy, or anything negative happening to them is unhealthy. When the substances are out you meet reality. I know haidut and perhaps Ray have differing views, I'm not too sure about mine.

To me - ANY effort you make to express generative energy is the important point. Sometimes the body needs a boost. I have been doing yoga for like 30 years - totally kept me out of serious health messes. I am older now and newly married, running a business that is SATISFYING - my system needs a boost at this point in time, hence thyroid. I imagine it won’t be forever. See it is that tuning in, fine tuning, tweaking, adjusting that is AMAZING for self hacking Health...

 

[Amazoniac]

When you talk about causes, I think that unlike Ray or haidut you do not consider, for the vast majority of cases, hormonal imbalances to be a cause but rather a consequence. If one considers hormonal imbalances, deficiency of dht (sometimes from early childhood), deficiency of thyroid as cause of the issues (inability to handle stress, mood swings, whatever) then addressing the cause leads to the use of particular supplements.

The imbalanced hormones were just responding to a cause and only then contributing.
But it's not my intention to encourage suffering or discourage experimentation but rather to comment on some irrelevances such as the importance of the experience as a whole, on precipitation, on creating a more sustainable good state, on facing problems, on addressing the cause, etc.

 

[LUH 3417]

To me - ANY effort you make to express generative energy is the important point. Sometimes the body needs a boost. I have been doing yoga for like 30 years - totally kept me out of serious health messes. I am older now and newly married, running a business that is SATISFYING - my system needs a boost at this point in time, hence thyroid. I imagine it won’t be forever. See it is that tuning in, fine tuning, tweaking, adjusting that is AMAZING for self hacking Health...

do you think there is any validity to the writings regarding yoga being harmful to the female pelvis? this article comes to mind:

Women’s hips showed particular vulnerability. By nature, their pelvic regions support an unusually wide range of joint play that can increase not only their proficiency in yoga but, it turned out, their health risks. The investigators found that extreme leg motions could cause the hip bones to repeatedly strike each other, leading over time to damaged cartilage, inflammation, pain and crippling arthritis. They called it Femoroacetabular Impingement — or F.A.I., in medical shorthand. The name spoke to a recurrence in which the neck of the thigh bone (the femur) swung so close to the hip socket (the acetabulum) that it repeatedly struck the socket’s protruding rim.
The main investigator was Reinhold Ganz, an orthopedic surgeon at the University of Berne, in Switzerland. Between 2001 and 2008, his team published many studies, the 2008 one noting that women between 30 and 40 years of age whose activities made “high demands on motion” tended to show the hip damage more often. The paper specifically cited yoga.
The discovery resonated. I found that hundreds of orthopedic surgeons in the Mediterranean region heard a conference presentation in 2010 that linked F.A.I. to middle-aged women who do yoga.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/sunday-review/womens-flexibility-is-a-liability-in-yoga.html

 

[lollipop]

do you think there is any validity to the writings regarding yoga being harmful to the female pelvis? this article comes to mind:

Women’s hips showed particular vulnerability. By nature, their pelvic regions support an unusually wide range of joint play that can increase not only their proficiency in yoga but, it turned out, their health risks. The investigators found that extreme leg motions could cause the hip bones to repeatedly strike each other, leading over time to damaged cartilage, inflammation, pain and crippling arthritis. They called it Femoroacetabular Impingement — or F.A.I., in medical shorthand. The name spoke to a recurrence in which the neck of the thigh bone (the femur) swung so close to the hip socket (the acetabulum) that it repeatedly struck the socket’s protruding rim.
The main investigator was Reinhold Ganz, an orthopedic surgeon at the University of Berne, in Switzerland. Between 2001 and 2008, his team published many studies, the 2008 one noting that women between 30 and 40 years of age whose activities made “high demands on motion” tended to show the hip damage more often. The paper specifically cited yoga.
The discovery resonated. I found that hundreds of orthopedic surgeons in the Mediterranean region heard a conference presentation in 2010 that linked F.A.I. to middle-aged women who do yoga.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/sunday-review/womens-flexibility-is-a-liability-in-yoga.html

Perhaps but only if someone who does not really know what they are doing trained you and you practice incorrectly.

The term “Yoga” means sooooo many different things, it is hard to know what was practiced.