Thyroid Hormone Resistance

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jyb

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kiran said:
I've always used T3 as my main thyroid hormone, pretty much, on recommendation from Dr. Peat. No NDT or T4.

I did work myself up gradually to that high dose. I did it by increasing frequency rather than increasing dosage as the site recommends. I was up to 5 mcg every 20min at one point.
I noticed the difference very early, the same dose split into 5mcg doses was far more effective than if it was taken at once.

I don't remember how long it took, sorry, it's been a while.

Right now, I take about 40mcg/day +half-grain NDT at night.

40mcg/day? So you only do the 5mcg every 20min in the morning then, or did you decreased your dose since then?

PS. What's the biological reason why you need more T3 to get the response?
 

narouz

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kiran said:
I've always used T3 as my main thyroid hormone, pretty much, on recommendation from Dr. Peat. No NDT or T4.

I did work myself up gradually to that high dose. I did it by increasing frequency rather than increasing dosage as the site recommends. I was up to 5 mcg every 20min at one point.
I noticed the difference very early, the same dose split into 5mcg doses was far more effective than if it was taken at once.

I don't remember how long it took, sorry, it's been a while.

Right now, I take about 40mcg/day +half-grain NDT at night.

So kiran-

Peat recommended straight T3 for you?
I've always used T3 as my main thyroid hormone, pretty much, on recommendation from Dr. Peat. No NDT or T4.
Sorry to ask maybe an obvious question but...that is very surprising to me,
that Peat would recommend straight T3.
Can you tell me anything about why he might've recommended that for you?
Did you have some unusual labs or symptoms?

As you're on the 40mcg/day of T3 now,
I guess you experienced that dramatic "clearing", right?!
I mean...did you go down from around 200mcg to 40mcg pretty much on a dime?

When you started out on the T3
did you start feeling better pretty much right away,
or did you only start feeling better after that "clearing"?

Finally (sorry to wear you out on this! :) ),
do you take the NDT at night because it helps you sleep better?

Thanks.
 

kiran

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That 5mcg every 20 min was at the highest dose. Now it's 5mcg every 2 hours or so, totalling 40mcg/day. Not entirely sure about the theory.

One thing is Peat did mention that people who have cancer might need more Thyroid hormone, I have lipomas.
 

kiran

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narouz, I had CFS and cognitive issues, the beginnings of dementia at 30.

Suddenly one day I was feeling much warmer, and I decided to cut it way down. Within a few days I was up to 40mcg or so.

I did experience benefits from the T3 as I was increasing the dosage. I felt much better/warmer after the "clearing", and more sensitive to T3 to boot.

I'm still unsure if that was the right way to go about things.
 
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ratcheer

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I tried high-dose T3 for some months (up to ~300 mcg/day), on the assumption that thyroid resistance was relevant to me; the theory around it made a lot of sense to me and T4 (Synthroid) made me feel like crap anyway. But I felt pretty much nothing different the whole time - no energy, no heat, sleep about the same - nada. It was only at the end of several months that I got a blood test that showed (among other things) that my rT3 was very low almost zero, my TSH was almost zero, my PTH was almost zero - and my cholesterol was significantly below reference (normally it's high). My usual low hemoglobin level was the unchanged (I had hoped T3 would help with anemia).

Then around that time I finally started to get some symptoms - heart palpitations mainly and it did NOT feel like a Good Thing. So I cut WAY back - to almost none in a matter of days - and had no impact or reaction to the sudden withdrawal of T3 either.

So for me, I don't think thyroid resistance or excess rT3 was an issue. I surely would have experience 'clearance' in that time, or at least a reaction to the high T3 - granted that it was impacting my blood chemistry regardless what I felt. I suspect that my system is just particularly fast at turning over chemicals (I have the gene for Fast Caffeine Metabolism - perhaps it impacts other chemicals too?), and they don't stay around long enough for a strong immediate impact.
 
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kiran said:
narouz, I had CFS and cognitive issues, the beginnings of dementia at 30.

Suddenly one day I was feeling much warmer, and I decided to cut it way down. Within a few days I was up to 40mcg or so.

I did experience benefits from the T3 as I was increasing the dosage. I felt much better/warmer after the "clearing", and more sensitive to T3 to boot.

I'm still unsure if that was the right way to go about things.

What symptoms did you experience with CFS? Did it all go away when you went Peat + thyroid supps with your protocol?

I have serious fatigue issues and I'm 26. I get more effects from progesterone and pregnelonone than thyroid (so far the thyroid supps in small to medium doses didn't change a thing to my 98.0-98.1F afternoon oral temps).
 
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ratcheer said:
I tried high-dose T3 for some months (up to ~300 mcg/day), on the assumption that thyroid resistance was relevant to me; the theory around it made a lot of sense to me and T4 (Synthroid) made me feel like crap anyway. But I felt pretty much nothing different the whole time - no energy, no heat, sleep about the same - nada. It was only at the end of several months that I got a blood test that showed (among other things) that my rT3 was very low almost zero, my TSH was almost zero, my PTH was almost zero - and my cholesterol was significantly below reference (normally it's high). My usual low hemoglobin level was the unchanged (I had hoped T3 would help with anemia).

Then around that time I finally started to get some symptoms - heart palpitations mainly and it did NOT feel like a Good Thing. So I cut WAY back - to almost none in a matter of days - and had no impact or reaction to the sudden withdrawal of T3 either.

So for me, I don't think thyroid resistance or excess rT3 was an issue. I surely would have experience 'clearance' in that time, or at least a reaction to the high T3 - granted that it was impacting my blood chemistry regardless what I felt. I suspect that my system is just particularly fast at turning over chemicals (I have the gene for Fast Caffeine Metabolism - perhaps it impacts other chemicals too?), and they don't stay around long enough for a strong immediate impact.

Did it improve your energy and heat after you got good blood tests and symptoms?
 

Ray-Z

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narouz said:
So, did you work your way up gradually to your present 100mcg-ish dose?

Yes; rather slowly.

narouz said:
Have you ever checked out the Yahoo RT3 group's method?

Alas, no.

narouz said:
They say that once you get up to about your dosage of T3,
after 2 or 3 months people's dosage requirements suddenly drop,
because the T3 receptors have cleared from the excess T4 clogging.
And then only a steeply reduced dose is needed for the same effects.

I guess you haven't experienced anything like that, have you?

Hmmmmmmm...

Initially, I experienced little or no benefit from T3. Then, suddenly, after one increase, I noticed that my typical resting pulse was going up. But because my typical pulse was still well below Peat's recommended range and I still had other hypo symptoms, I continued to increase T3 until I reached my current dosage. I haven't experimented with cutting my dose significantly, and suspect that doing so would put me back in hypo-land. :(
 

narouz

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Ray-Z said:
narouz said:
So, did you work your way up gradually to your present 100mcg-ish dose?

Yes; rather slowly.

narouz said:
Have you ever checked out the Yahoo RT3 group's method?

Alas, no.

narouz said:
They say that once you get up to about your dosage of T3,
after 2 or 3 months people's dosage requirements suddenly drop,
because the T3 receptors have cleared from the excess T4 clogging.
And then only a steeply reduced dose is needed for the same effects.

I guess you haven't experienced anything like that, have you?

Hmmmmmmm...

Initially, I experienced little or no benefit from T3. Then, suddenly, after one increase, I noticed that my typical resting pulse was going up. But because my typical pulse was still well below Peat's recommended range and I still had other hypo symptoms, I continued to increase T3 until I reached my current dosage. I haven't experimented with cutting my dose significantly, and suspect that doing so would put me back in hypo-land. :(

Very interesting, Ray-Z.
The picture I'm forming of you and your treatment is
that it was a self-treatment: you didn't rely much upon doctors and labs.
And you seem to have proceeded by trial and error:
you took the NDT and you felt like crap.
So you took the T3 and you felt better.

What made you confident enough to take the straight T3?
I had never considered it until here recently
because so few recommended it.
Peat, as we've discussed, seemed to be against it.
 

narouz

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kiran said:
narouz, I had CFS and cognitive issues, the beginnings of dementia at 30.

Suddenly one day I was feeling much warmer, and I decided to cut it way down. Within a few days I was up to 40mcg or so.

I did experience benefits from the T3 as I was increasing the dosage. I felt much better/warmer after the "clearing", and more sensitive to T3 to boot.

I'm still unsure if that was the right way to go about things.

Thank you, kiran.
Well, from a Peat view, it is so key to get the metabolism cranked up.
So I have to think you're on the right track in a big way.

Did Peat advise you at first to try the NDT,
that didn't work well,
and then he suggested straight T3?
 

kiran

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narouz said:
Thank you, kiran.
Well, from a Peat view, it is so key to get the metabolism cranked up.
So I have to think you're on the right track in a big way.

Did Peat advise you at first to try the NDT,
that didn't work well,
and then he suggested straight T3?

He said thyroid, and I specifically asked him whether he meant T3 or NDT. He made it clear that he meant T3.
This was during the original issues with the Armour reformulation, so that may have played a part.
 

narouz

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kiran said:
narouz said:
Thank you, kiran.
Well, from a Peat view, it is so key to get the metabolism cranked up.
So I have to think you're on the right track in a big way.

Did Peat advise you at first to try the NDT,
that didn't work well,
and then he suggested straight T3?

He said thyroid, and I specifically asked him whether he meant T3 or NDT. He made it clear that he meant T3.
This was during the original issues with the Armour reformulation, so that may have played a part.

Thanks, kiran.
That is a first, for me.
I don't think I've ever heard of Peat recommending straight T3 to anyone.
I'm interested in this
because I never really considered doing straight T3
mostly because Peat never seemed to recommend it.
 

chris

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kiran - What was your daily diet during the time you used such high t3? I always wondered if I am getting enough nutrients when I start increasing T3.
 

kiran

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Starch and protein. Not much sugar at that point. I doubt I was getting 2000 calories a day though.

Apart from the obvious sugar and protein deficiencies which will prevent the T3 being effective, your body will usually tell you when you're deficient in something.
 

jojo

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Hello everyone.

Just wanted to 'chip in' and say that I am on 150mcg T3 only and slowly still increasing every couple of weeks or so.

I have been on T3 only for 9 months now. I got up to 3.5 grains of NDT before and I was 'in between hypo and hyper' ie: still with hypo symptoms and getting malaise due to too much T4 in my body, my rT3/fT3 ratio was 10 at that stage, with my doctors I decided to go on T3 only (may 2012), by end of August I am sure I 'cleared' all the rT3 as I felt a huge improvement very quickly, I was at 125mcg by then, I then experimented with dosage for 4months (october/november/december/january) as I had heart pounding, I went up then down then up again, I sussed out that the pounding was not because of over-medication as I went down in dosage and below 100mcg I start feeling RUBBISH, and by the time I get to 40mcg I am as good as dead, I ache all over I cannot keep myself up straight, my periods (am a 'lady') are bucket-loads, my kidneys hurt, I get bad fibromyalgia and all I can do is curl up in a ball in bed and cry :( and still had the pounding LOL
My pounding is now 99% gone! and I am upping my T3 slowly, I am now at 150mcg and will go up by 10mcg in 2-3 weeks time. I feel quite good overall but still some niggles telling me I am not at my optimal dose 'yet'.
I don't think I have thyroid hormone resistance, I think I have 'euthyroid hypometabolism' as described by dr Lowe: normal thyroid chemistry with low metabolism and Dr Lowe said these people only get well on T3 only and high dosages of it. I guess it is similar in many ways to thyroid hormone resistance though......
I have to say also:
I have no vitamin deficiency, very good levels of vit D/B12/iron/ferritin, cortisol not bad, went a bit 'off' with my once a day bedtime dosing so I am now dosing 3 times a day and it's going back to normal, I take a good dose of mineral supplements each day.

Nice thread, thank you
 

Ray-Z

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narouz said:
Very interesting, Ray-Z.
The picture I'm forming of you and your treatment is
that it was a self-treatment: you didn't rely much upon doctors and labs.

With a few noteworthy exceptions, doctors have generally been intent on stuffing me with dangerous drugs. They have contributed to the deaths of at least three of my close relatives and are doing their best to finish off a fourth. If I have a choice, I stay clear of them.

narouz said:
And you seem to have proceeded by trial and error:
you took the NDT and you felt like crap.
So you took the T3 and you felt better.

What made you confident enough to take the straight T3?
I had never considered it until here recently
because so few recommended it.
Peat, as we've discussed, seemed to be against it.

A fair question. I agree that Ray has pointed out a number of disadvantages to T3-only regimens, and seems rarely to recommend them except as experiments. But as best I can tell, his discussions of these disadvantages appear in Danny's email collection, and not in other writings. I don't think I had seen most of the relevant emails when I started T3, so I wasn't fully aware of his concerns. By the time I had read all the emails, I was already using T3 more or less successfully.

I think I got the idea of trying T3 from Danny, and then read parts of the STTM website -- rather skeptically, given their infatuation with iron supplements. :lol: These two sources and what I'd seen of Peat's writings on thyroid persuaded me that the risks of experimenting with T3 at low doses were manageable in my particular circumstances -- big guy, no history of heart problems, very hypothyroid, easy access to kimchi and beef liver in the unlikely event of an OD. :mrgreen:
 

Ray-Z

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jojo said:
Hello everyone.

Just wanted to 'chip in' and say that I am on 150mcg T3 only and slowly still increasing every couple of weeks or so.

I have been on T3 only for 9 months now. I got up to 3.5 grains of NDT before and I was 'in between hypo and hyper' ie: still with hypo symptoms and getting malaise due to too much T4 in my body, my rT3/fT3 ratio was 10 at that stage, with my doctors I decided to go on T3 only (may 2012), by end of August I am sure I 'cleared' all the rT3 as I felt a huge improvement very quickly, I was at 125mcg by then, I then experimented with dosage for 4months (october/november/december/january) as I had heart pounding, I went up then down then up again, I sussed out that the pounding was not because of over-medication as I went down in dosage and below 100mcg I start feeling RUBBISH, and by the time I get to 40mcg I am as good as dead, I ache all over I cannot keep myself up straight, my periods (am a 'lady') are bucket-loads, my kidneys hurt, I get bad fibromyalgia and all I can do is curl up in a ball in bed and cry :( and still had the pounding LOL
My pounding is now 99% gone! and I am upping my T3 slowly, I am now at 150mcg and will go up by 10mcg in 2-3 weeks time. I feel quite good overall but still some niggles telling me I am not at my optimal dose 'yet'.
I don't think I have thyroid hormone resistance, I think I have 'euthyroid hypometabolism' as described by dr Lowe: normal thyroid chemistry with low metabolism and Dr Lowe said these people only get well on T3 only and high dosages of it. I guess it is similar in many ways to thyroid hormone resistance though......
I have to say also:
I have no vitamin deficiency, very good levels of vit D/B12/iron/ferritin, cortisol not bad, went a bit 'off' with my once a day bedtime dosing so I am now dosing 3 times a day and it's going back to normal, I take a good dose of mineral supplements each day.

Nice thread, thank you

Welcome, Jojo!

Your story is very interesting. Thanks for joining the conversation (and the forum!).

When you say you're dosing three times a day, you're referring to T3, right?

Any ideas about how you ended up with "euthyroid hypometabolism"?
 

jojo

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Ray-Z said:
Welcome, Jojo!

Your story is very interesting. Thanks for joining the conversation (and the forum!).

When you say you're dosing three times a day, you're referring to T3, right?

Any ideas about how you ended up with "euthyroid hypometabolism"?

Hi Ray-Z, thank you :)

yes, dosing T3 three times a day: 6am 60mcg (when I wake up), 11:30 am 40mcg and 4 to 5 pm last dose 40mcg

I tried single bed-time dosing a few months back, so was taking all of my 125mcg at bed-time, it worked quite well, however I started getting heart pounding very shortly after I started, it took 3 months for me to realise it was the bed-time dosing. I believe it has raised my cortisol levels and with it my adrenaline and/or sensitivity to it. I have gone to 3 times a day dosing now since a month ago and my pounding is almost gone and I am up to 150mcg daily. I never had a fast heart rate or any irregularities, my ECGs were all normal and all my bloods too.

No ideas how I ended up being 'euthyroid hypometabolic' :D it's only that when I read (am still reading it as it's a HUGE book) DR Lowe's book 'The Metabolic Treatment of Fibromyalgia' I read about these conditions and I thought that described me quite well....I may not be....but for all I know is that although NDT was giving me some relief I then hit a wall and when I went onto straight T3 the wall has started to crumble and am getting better and better all the time :mrgreen:

On NDT my fT4 went over range but my fT3 was still in the pits which fitted in with my symptoms. I put a lot of importance on symptoms (though of course one has to be careful not to jump to a conclusion too quick with symptoms LOL)
 

narouz

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Ray-Z said:
narouz said:
Very interesting, Ray-Z.
The picture I'm forming of you and your treatment is
that it was a self-treatment: you didn't rely much upon doctors and labs.

With a few noteworthy exceptions, doctors have generally been intent on stuffing me with dangerous drugs. They have contributed to the deaths of at least three of my close relatives and are doing their best to finish off a fourth. If I have a choice, I stay clear of them.

narouz said:
And you seem to have proceeded by trial and error:
you took the NDT and you felt like crap.
So you took the T3 and you felt better.

What made you confident enough to take the straight T3?
I had never considered it until here recently
because so few recommended it.
Peat, as we've discussed, seemed to be against it.

A fair question. I agree that Ray has pointed out a number of disadvantages to T3-only regimens, and seems rarely to recommend them except as experiments. But as best I can tell, his discussions of these disadvantages appear in Danny's email collection, and not in other writings. I don't think I had seen most of the relevant emails when I started T3, so I wasn't fully aware of his concerns. By the time I had read all the emails, I was already using T3 more or less successfully.

I think I got the idea of trying T3 from Danny, and then read parts of the STTM website -- rather skeptically, given their infatuation with iron supplements. :lol: These two sources and what I'd seen of Peat's writings on thyroid persuaded me that the risks of experimenting with T3 at low doses were manageable in my particular circumstances -- big guy, no history of heart problems, very hypothyroid, easy access to kimchi and beef liver in the unlikely event of an OD. :mrgreen:

Ray-Z,
I didn't mean it pejoratively when I remarked about your trial-and-error method.
I tend to be timid about dosing myself with potent chemicals like T3.
When I switched a couple years ago from Synthroid to NDT,
that gave me a bit of a scare at first--the "hard heart beating" and sleeplessness.

So you guys who pop down the 100gram+ doses of straight T3...
I was just trying to understand where you got that seeming daredevil spirit! :)

In my first week here of trying straight T3
I've found it a little hard to stabilize dosing.
I've been splitting it up into little 6mcg doses,
spreading that throughout the day.
Trying to take about 25mcg per day.

It's kinda surprised me that I've had a hard time getting my morning temps up with straight T3.
I've seen this kind of pattern:
I take 6mcg around 7:00AM.
Then another 6mcg around 10:00AM.
But my temps/pulse will still be low, like around 97 degrees
(haven't been able to get my pulse at work).

Then I take another 6mcg around 1:00 and (here's the surprising thing):
on a couple of days at that dosing my temps and pulses go way up after that
to around 99.5 degrees and 90bpm mid-afternoon,
and stay high until late at night, with no additional doses.
It makes me feel like there is a cumulative effect--which I didn't expect.

It hasn't always followed that pattern.
Somedays I've continued the dosing all day at that rate,
taking 25mcg or over--even as high as 40mcg for the day,
and have had a hard time getting my temps/pulses up even above like 98.4 and 78bpm.

So...it's been kinduv erratic here in the first week of experimenting.

Another odd thing:
At night, when I've tried to sleep,
frequently I've had the "hard heart pounding" (Charlie's way of putting it).
On a couple of occasions when that's happened,
I've gotten up and checked my pulses and temps,
and found mixed readings:
once they were rather high for sleep-time at like 98.8 and 87bpm.
But last night they were 97.6 and 75bpm--pretty low.

So the hard hard pounding experience can, for me, come with low pulse.
Odd.
Charlie found this same lack of correlation with his hard heart pounding:
didn't coincide with high pulse.
He even took his blood pressure during the episodes and found that
the HHP didn't coincide with high blood pressure.
So just what IS this HHP?

So, in sum, erratic results so far.

Also Ray-Z: have you ever looked into Paul Robinson's Circadian T3 dosing?
He recommends (oddly) taking a dose of T3 a couple of hours before you wake up.
(I guess you set the alarm, dose, then try to go back to sleep. :? )
 

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