Thyroid Hormone Resistance

[charlie]

For me, and now I am 100% convinced. Hard heart beat is actually a normal heart beat and I was just not use to it.

 

[jojo]

For me, and now I am 100% convinced. Hard heart beat is actually a normal heart beat and I was just not use to it.

yes, it can really be,
in my case though, I think it's a mixture of 'normal' and reacting to something too as I've had it for a good 4 months now and if it was just something to 'get used to' surely I would have got used to it by now? I mean Dr Lowe says you should get used to it within a couple of weeks.... :?

mine is also always with slow heart beat (well anything between 62 and 88) and BP of 110/70 or 100/60 and very normal temps mmmhhhhh

 

[charlie]

Jojo, the thing with mine is when the HHB went away after going off thyroid, my sleep crashed, my energy crashed, I simply crashed. Back on thyroid, HHB came back, sleep immediately got better, energy coming back, slowly coming out of the hole. Now that I look at the HHB as a good thing there is no more nervousness with it and I actually miss it when its not there

So with all that I said above. I have to conclude all is well when the HHB happens. The only thing that was not well was I was scared of it when it happened. Now that I accepted it, all is well.

 

[jojo]

Jojo, the thing with mine is when the HHB went away after going off thyroid, my sleep crashed, my energy crashed, I simply crashed. Back on thyroid, HHB came back, sleep immediately got better, energy coming back, slowly coming out of the hole. Now that I look at the HHB as a good thing there is no more nervousness with it and I actually miss it when its not there

So with all that I said above. I have to conclude all is well when the HHB happens. The only thing that was not well was I was scared of it when it happened. Now that I accepted it, all is well.

Good point Charlie,

maybe mine is slowly going away too as I am also slowly beginning not to be worried by it?
I mean, I was not spending my day in fear of dropping down with a heart attack, however in the back of my head I kept thinking: what if I ignoring something relevant here and 3/4/5 years down the line I will find myself sorry to have ignored it?
I work in a hospital so I have done several ECGs (EKGs) on myself during these episodes they all always came back normal :) , bloods normal, BP/heart rate/temps normal sometimes on the lower side as when I was untreated hypo. Even now at 150mcg T3 daily my BP is 'still' 100/60 at waking, my heart rate has improved, used to be 43 at waking maximum 58, now around 58 to 62 at waking, never below 55, during the day it's a comfortable 70-something most of the times.

I think it is good initially to want to 'investigate the cause' as indeed occasionally for some people it 'may not be' normal, but we went methodically through certain assessments and then told ourselves: I am 'fine' :) which is good.

I read your thread on your pounding heart and it was really really interesting, you did well

 

[charlie]

 

[narouz]

Jojo, the thing with mine is when the HHB went away after going off thyroid, my sleep crashed, my energy crashed, I simply crashed. Back on thyroid, HHB came back, sleep immediately got better, energy coming back, slowly coming out of the hole. Now that I look at the HHB as a good thing there is no more nervousness with it and I actually miss it when its not there

So with all that I said above. I have to conclude all is well when the HHB happens. The only thing that was not well was I was scared of it when it happened. Now that I accepted it, all is well.

Charlie-
This is so weird:
you do antibiotics,
I do antibiotics.
You get thrush,
I get thrush.
You get HHB,
now I get HHD.
Wha...!?

Lately I think of you when I get my HHB thing at night.
I think it happens other times,
but when I'm quiet and reading/getting ready to try to sleep
is when I notice it.
And as I said, it can occur when my heart is beating pretty slowly.

I'm sortuv where you were a while back.
It is uncomfortable, a bit scary.

I've been trying the straight T3 thing here beginning about a week ago.
So...you weren't doing that.

But maybe the straight T3 regime
is starting to make my heart beat more healthily or "normally"
and, like you now see it,
that healthy heartbeat now seems unusual and therefore scary.

I dunno.
The investigation continues....

 

[charlie]

Charlie-
This is so weird:
you do antibiotics,
I do antibiotics.
You get thrush,
I get thrush.
You get HHB,
now I get HHD.
Wha...!?

Lately I think of you when I get my HHB thing at night.
I think it happens other times,
but when I'm quiet and reading/getting ready to try to sleep
is when I notice it.
And as I said, it can occur when my heart is beating pretty slowly.

I'm sortuv where you were a while back.
It is uncomfortable, a bit scary.

I've been trying the straight T3 thing here beginning about a week ago.
So...you weren't doing that.

But maybe the straight T3 regime
is starting to make my heart beat more healthily or "normally"
and, like you now see it,
that healthy heartbeat now seems unusual and therefore scary.

I dunno.
The investigation continues....

Welcome to the world of a healthy heart beat narouz. If Broda Barnes and the rest are correct. You have just dramatically decreased your risk of heart attack.

 

[j.]

I had hard heart pounding before Peating, so it probably was of a different nature. But I wasn't sleeping well. At that time, the heart pounding would usually wake me up and leave me unable to sleep.

 

[narouz]

Maybe, Charlie, the HHB phenomenon
is what Dr. Lowe described:
the normal, healthy, strong, energetic squeezing
of blood from one chamber of the heart
(can't remember the name)
into the other chamber
and strongly surging against the receiving chamber's (again, can't remember the name) wall.
Maybe that is actual action of the heart and blood
which produces the sensation we call "HHB."

And I guess that Lowe was saying that
as that unusual action becomes the normal experience
we tend, over time, to become inured to it--
it comes to feel normal and we don't really notice it anymore.

Well...I still think there is a place for concern about strange sensations from the heart.
I guess it is a tricky line to draw.
I mean: it's not stupid to be concerned about unusual heart sensations.

(Just worrying aloud a bit here. )

 

[Ray-Z]

Ray-Z,
I didn't mean it pejoratively when I remarked about your trial-and-error method.
I tend to be timid about dosing myself with potent chemicals like T3.
When I switched a couple years ago from Synthroid to NDT,
that gave me a bit of a scare at first--the "hard heart beating" and sleeplessness.

So you guys who pop down the 100gram+ doses of straight T3...
I was just trying to understand where you got that seeming daredevil spirit! :)

No offense taken. I completely agree that T3 merits caution. I took a looooong time to get up to my present dose.

In my first week here of trying straight T3
I've found it a little hard to stabilize dosing.
I've been splitting it up into little 6mcg doses,
spreading that throughout the day.
Trying to take about 25mcg per day.

It's kinda surprised me that I've had a hard time getting my morning temps up with straight T3.
I've seen this kind of pattern:
I take 6mcg around 7:00AM.
Then another 6mcg around 10:00AM.
But my temps/pulse will still be low, like around 97 degrees
(haven't been able to get my pulse at work).

I do larger nibbles in the a.m. than at other times for exactly this reason.

Then I take another 6mcg around 1:00 and (here's the surprising thing):
on a couple of days at that dosing my temps and pulses go way up after that
to around 99.5 degrees and 90bpm mid-afternoon,
and stay high until late at night, with no additional doses.
It makes me feel like there is a cumulative effect--which I didn't expect.

I tend to agree with you about the cumulative effect of T3 (I'm not sure), though it's sort of hard to distinguish this effect from normal circadian rhythms. If I remember, I'll try to investigate that effect.

Also Ray-Z: have you ever looked into Paul Robinson's Circadian T3 dosing?
He recommends (oddly) taking a dose of T3 a couple of hours before you wake up.
(I guess you set the alarm, dose, then try to go back to sleep. :? )

Oh, man, that sounds rough! Persuading me to interrupt my sleep for almost any reason is a tough sell. I wonder if this tactic is intended to combat the problem (mentioned by Peat in an email and discussed in other threads) that supplemental T3 gets used up overnight...

 

[narouz]

Also Ray-Z: have you ever looked into Paul Robinson's Circadian T3 dosing?
He recommends (oddly) taking a dose of T3 a couple of hours before you wake up.
(I guess you set the alarm, dose, then try to go back to sleep. :? )

Oh, man, that sounds rough! Persuading me to interrupt my sleep for almost any reason is a tough sell. I wonder if this tactic is intended to combat the problem (mentioned by Peat in an email and discussed in other threads) that supplemental T3 gets used up overnight...

Well, I haven't studied the Robinson Circadian thing closely.
But that is what would seem to be the obvious explanation for taking T3 during sleep time:
T3 runs out.

(But as you seem to agree, there does seem to be a cumulative effect with T3;
I hadn't expected that based upon what Peat says about it.)

I'm up to around 45mcg per day now.

 

[juanitacarlos]

Has anybody here ever tried Paul Robinson's Circadian T3 method for treating hypothyroidism? Apparently, some people have had success with this thyroid dosing schedule when other thyroid dosing methods had failed them.


http://recoveringwitht3.com/blog/why-bo ... ethod-ct3m


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDV1qePLtLs


http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/T3CM/

Hi Winblo - I've tried this method for some time last year. Can't say it really did anything that I noticed. At first, I felt slightly better, but I think it was because I had just changed over from synthetic T4 to NDT and was getting some benefit from that. I also believe that I really wanted it to work and it made sense to me, so I'm sure there are some positive intentions there. But after a while, the disrupted sleep was really annoying since I wasn't getting much benefit. And importantly, I did not see an increase in cortisol (through tests - I have a 'flatline' cortisol profile). But I'm on a completely different path at the moment in terms of the belief that your poor old adrenals are all worn out and need some support to get working properly again. Pffft.

In saying that, I don't think it's total BS or anything - definitely worth a try because it certainly has worked for other people. And I guess that's all that matters really?

 

[sctb]

Re. cumulative effect: Peat has mentioned that T3 "energizes the liver" to
convert T4. Perhaps this is an explanation for effects beyond the exogenous
T3? *shrug*

- Scott

 

[jyb]

Thyroid resistance protocol such as http://thyroid-rt3.com/ often list low iron as a cause of resistance. They put examples of people which resistance to T3 cleared when their iron panel improved:

http://thyroid-rt3.com/iron.htm

It's really in contrast with RP who only emphasizes on lowering iron. In the link above, both lower and upper ranges are recommended. Going too low is seen as problematic.

It also makes an interest comment, that ferritin is not reliable indicator when hypo. Other indicators are better:

IN the last year I have learned that for HYPOTHYROID people the Ferritin is the LASTS thing we should be looking at as MOST of us it will be falsely elevated due to the inflammation caused by hypo. Mine certainly was as there is no other reason mine came down from 159 to 90 except I am not hypo now.

 

[narouz]

(I posted this this morning in the "How Much T3" thread,
but meant for it to go here.)

Here's a little wrinkle in the thyroid resistance world:

I'm the opposite from a lot of hypothyroid people
in that I have way too much iron.
So I donated blood yesterday.
After I gave blood at about 1:00 I came home and took my small, 6.25 dose of T3
(I've been doing the straight T3 for about a week and a half now).

The entire remainder of the day I couldn't take any more T3
because my temps and especially pulses were unusually high for me.
The pulses were in the 90-100 range all the way until I went to bed, late, at 1:30.
I debated with myself, but decided to take another 6.25 dose
because it usually helps me sleep better.
But I hardly got any sleep because of the rather intense heartbeat
and I just felt kinduv hyper/wired.

So I ended up taking considerably less T3 for the day,
but felt hyper and had high metabolic rates after that blood donation.

Even now, this morning, first thing, my temp is 98 and pulse 84: much higher than usual for me at waking.

One angle could be that I got rid of some iron through the donation
which allowed my body to use the thyroid better.

I have just recently come across the idea that excess iron can cause thyroid resistance.
Maybe there's something to it.

I've seen the view, as you note jyb, about low iron causing thyroid resistance,
but I've only seen a very scant trace of stuff about high iron being a cause.

 

[kiran]

narouz, how did you diagnose your high iron?

 

[narouz]

narouz, how did you diagnose your high iron?

kiran-
My doctor did an iron panel (I guess that's what it's called):
-iron
-iron serum
-UIBC
-iron saturation
-ferritin

I don't think you need all of those to give you a strong clue.
I think my doctor saw my sky-high ferritin, then wanted more tests to follow-up.

 

[j.]

narouz, this is a slight hijack. have you ever mention Ray Peat's name to your doctor?

 

[narouz]

narouz, this is a slight hijack. have you ever mention Ray Peat's name to your doctor?

I gave him a copy of Peat's article "Thyroid, Fraud, and....?" (or something like that).
He pretended to be interested, but I could tell he really wasn't.
He's not as arrogant and know-it-all orthodox as most doctors;
he let me do NDT.
But...he's not real open-minded and curious.

 

[j.]

Congratulations for being able to get the physician to accept that. I bet it takes real skill.