Somatic Experiencing Of Peter Levine

[Xisca]

Well, Heidi, I am not going to quote you all, though I would, just to tell you how great it is!
We hear "less is more" all the time in the course.
So yes it can be very progressive and you just notice that something has changed. I feel it is better like this.
The problem with big issues is that they can go back to freeze instead of going away, after a re-activation.
In this case it is re-activated with present events, again and again.
And we can even atract this kind of event!!!!!
(I hate this but it unfortunately happens like this in my experience, and I am surely not the only one....)

In any activation there are 2 options, discharge or freeze it.
Honestly, I still do not know how to make the difference in a lot of cases. I mean that it looks gone.
The physical contact with reality and the feeling of expansive energy, and a change afterward, are the good signals it is gone.
The change is effortless, marvelous!

 

[Xisca]

The controlling the breath when sighing was from reading that one can subtly hyperventilate by sighing a lot. So I experimented with sighing by exhaling more slowly. But I've noticed with the oximeter that a sigh indicates a release and a shift into better breathing.
I think you're right though about allowing for spontaneity with any sighs and release. Thanks for the feedback.

I read it too!
And I jumped in my seat.
Even if it does, on the moment, it is short. Cannot be a reason for stopping spontaneity.
Spontaneity is the basis of the change.

I will bring to collegues the fact of measurement of the shift.
I knew it to be true, and you measured it. So you know it is truer than what you read!
What was the change with the oximeter readings?

 

[Xisca]

I think that spiritual states can be very disassociated. I'm relieved that I realized that. Working with the breathing, emotions, and somatic experiencing is incredibly grounded in comparison.

CAN BE, but not all spiritual states are dissociated.
There is a grounded spirituality.
And you can dissociate sometimes, no problem, IF you know how to come back easily.
Then you can use what you learned in the dissociated state.
In dissociation you are in contact with things that are not controlled by the cortex brain, I guess.

 

[Heidi]

Well, Heidi, I am not going to quote you all, though I would, just to tell you how great it is!
We hear "less is more" all the time in the course.
So yes it can be very progressive and you just notice that something has changed. I feel it is better like this.
The problem with big issues is that they can go back to freeze instead of going away, after a re-activation.
In this case it is re-activated with present events, again and again.
And we can even atract this kind of event!!!!!
(I hate this but it unfortunately happens like this in my experience, and I am surely not the only one....)

In any activation there are 2 options, discharge or freeze it.
Honestly, I still do not know how to make the difference in a lot of cases. I mean that it looks gone.
The physical contact with reality and the feeling of expansive energy, and a change afterward, are the good signals it is gone.
The change is effortless, marvelous!

All this that you said was really helpful to me.

Lately I haven't been too concerned about whether or not something is gone for good. I just stay with an activation until it feels complete for this moment. With big issues, just having them let go temporarily is good. Something settles for a brief time period. It is nice. I expect some things to be ongoing issues. It's then a welcome relief when they aren't a problem.

I use to be more upset by the things that I attracted over and over again. I'm not sure why I'm not as bothered by it now. It might be because I have more choices and ease with working with things. I also have good support from a few other people. Also, I recognize the learning and healing potential of those kinds of repetitive challenges.

 

[Heidi]

I read it too!
And I jumped in my seat.
Even if it does, on the moment, it is short. Cannot be a reason for stopping spontaneity.
Spontaneity is the basis of the change.

I will bring to collegues the fact of measurement of the shift.
I knew it to be true, and you measured it. So you know it is truer than what you read!
What was the change with the oximeter readings?

I'm having mixed feelings about the validation of the oximeter and CP measurements. It's not consistent and as trustworthy as the felt sense and physical changes. In general, when I am reducing my breathing, there is an uncontrollable sigh and then my breathing effortlessly reduces and drops down to a lighter and slower rate. My reading on the oximeter will drop down a number. But it may then fluctuate back up again. I'm trying to wean myself from the need for number validation. It can be addictive. The resulting physical relaxation and energy moving into my extremities feel like a more trustworthy validation.

 

[Heidi]

CAN BE, but not all spiritual states are dissociated.
There is a grounded spirituality.
And you can dissociate sometimes, no problem, IF you know how to come back easily.
Then you can use what you learned in the dissociated state.
In dissociation you are in contact with things that are not controlled by the cortex brain, I guess.

Yes, what you said was good. I'm interested in a grounded spirituality. And I've had lots of experiences of disassociating and coming back with knowledge. I'm just not in that mode for now.

 

[Xisca]

In general, when I am reducing my breathing, there is an uncontrollable sigh and then my breathing effortlessly reduces and drops down to a lighter and slower rate. My reading on the oximeter will drop down a number. But it may then fluctuate back up again. I'm trying to wean myself from the need for number validation. It can be addictive. The resulting physical relaxation and energy moving into my extremities feel like a more trustworthy validation.

Yes UNCONTROLABLE.
This is up to now my only disagreement with Buteyko, this of controlling sighs and yawns.
They are good signs, and the rest follows.
Yes, trust what you feel.

 

[Heidi]

Xisca, I've been noticing that with working with emotions, there's a feeling of layers. Some kind of release happens, a layer of emotion gives way, and then I feel a layer of sensation/emotion that is underneath the previous one. Then I might be at that new layer for awhile, until that gives way to something else. Sometimes an entire issue gives way but that doesn't seem to be the norm. More often I am just at a temporary plateau until the next layer reveals itself. I was wondering what a Somatic Experiencing perspective is on that? What is overall healing like from an SE perspective?

Also, how does SE view awakening, enlightenment, and spiritual states? Or what is your take on those things from an SE perspective?

 

[Xisca]

That's a lot of nice questions I have indeed answers to!

The 1st thing you mention is about waves, so about rythm, about "What goes up must go down".
All in life is about waves, including sounds we ear and images we see. electricity etc.
In our body, this is activation / relaxation, acting and resting, being aroused and then settle down.

It is almost impossible to get over any issue at once.
Or else you would have done it when it happened.
What is strong must be titrated, which means to be discharged gradually, in a way that does not overwhelm the system.

This is all normal. Think about animals, they are activated many times a day, and just go back to normal life until the next threat.
This is life, and we do not get rid of all, we just aim at not acumultating, because it keep life energy blocked, so less is available to deal with the next issue.

 

[Xisca]

So, healing from an SE perspective, is the discharge of acumulated energy.
You just want all your energy back, so that you can stay resilient for the next challenges.
You can view it as not driving your car with the hand brake on.

 

[Xisca]

SE being made of people... I can tell you about what says Peter Levine about spirituality, and I can tell you my take on it, which is more or less the same as him. I mean I had it before I read him. He says he prepares a book about only this topic.

He has seen very often that after in "big session" with a lot of discharge, that people express their feeling as spiritual, including if those persons had no previous belief, religious attitude nor spirituality! The feeling is about a strong expantion and connexion. When you get back what was stolen from you, you can feel it much more, because of the difference.

From my experience, I could feel something very special during one day, and then the new state becomes the normal one, so I could not feel it that much. Also, other waves of activation want to get resolved, so the system goes back to working the way out to any residual activation from the past.

Really, our system wants to heal, which means want to get rid of past activations, that are kept in check by our body, so that we can function more or less normally every day.

So, I view awakening as a profound shift in the nervous system.

The here and now they talk about is not what is thought in general. I think that it means that you only react to a danger or a challenge for what it is in the present, to protect yourself, and without involving a reaction to a past similar event. Also, this means to be free to react the best way for the present situation, instead of favoring the reaction that worked best in the past. I mean some sort of Fligh fight freeze choice. Usually, we favor one, including when onother would be more adapted. We cannot control the choice with our mind. But if we use our minds to do the necessary for removing past activations, then we are free to react the the present real actual situation.
This is to be "here and now".
Usually it is thought to focus consciously on what we do at the moment, and especially without thinking in our minds.
But why dissociate from our minds?

 

[Xisca]

When it is not about awakening, as I know only one person who reached this state, we can talk about spiritual experiences. Many more persons experience this.
This is "just" an harmonious felt sense.
You experience this when you get some energy back after a successful negotiation you can celebrate and rejoice about, because you can go out reinforced by the experience.
You feel energetic, in expantion instead of in constriction.
You also feel connected, to yourself, to others, to the world.
Conexion and expansion are the specific states of bliss, joy, peace, love. And you experience them without any reason, just because you are, just because it is life.

 

[Heidi]

SE being made of people... I can tell you about what says Peter Levine about spirituality, and I can tell you my take on it, which is more or less the same as him. I mean I had it before I read him. He says he prepares a book about only this topic.

He has seen very often that after in "big session" with a lot of discharge, that people express their feeling as spiritual, including if those persons had no previous belief, religious attitude nor spirituality! The feeling is about a strong expantion and connexion. When you get back what was stolen from you, you can feel it much more, because of the difference.

From my experience, I could feel something very special during one day, and then the new state becomes the normal one, so I could not feel it that much. Also, other waves of activation want to get resolved, so the system goes back to working the way out to any residual activation from the past.

Really, our system wants to heal, which means want to get rid of past activations, that are kept in check by our body, so that we can function more or less normally every day.

So, I view awakening as a profound shift in the nervous system.

The here and now they talk about is not what is thought in general. I think that it means that you only react to a danger or a challenge for what it is in the present, to protect yourself, and without involving a reaction to a past similar event. Also, this means to be free to react the best way for the present situation, instead of favoring the reaction that worked best in the past. I mean some sort of Fligh fight freeze choice. Usually, we favor one, including when onother would be more adapted. We cannot control the choice with our mind. But if we use our minds to do the necessary for removing past activations, then we are free to react the the present real actual situation.
This is to be "here and now".
Usually it is thought to focus consciously on what we do at the moment, and especially without thinking in our minds.
But why dissociate from our minds?

This whole post of yours was really good. I have had so many powerful shifts, but very soon the new state becomes normal and one can no longer perceive it as special. And that like you said it's on to the next thing or layer. I've been feeling more of a sense of freedom instead of being so at the mercy of conditioned reactions.

I also like what you said about not disassociating from our minds. Thinking can be helpful and integrated with emotions and the felt sense.

Thanks so much Xisca! It's always such a pleasure to get responses from you.

 

[Xisca]

¡Placer compartido!
Yes, when I listen that the mind is the enemy to kill, I always say that I do not know anything that is alive and that do not fight when in danger to be killed!
So i do nnot want such fights inside me..... :))
Just give the mind its right purpose and that's all. the point is that it is not the chief, it has to serve.

It can be decieving to do the job of healing and having more and more forever, so what is the point? It seems we could just do nothing and try to live life as it comes. Well, that is what we do when we are not that much plagued with symtoms.

The point is to recover some energy, and thus some more health.
This recovery in my experience just seem to not be related to the healing process.
But if you "just" have no more panick attack, or no more migraines, then it is worth it.
It is strange that we do not totally feel the conexion, but just notice some symtoms disepear.

 

[Heidi]

When it is not about awakening, as I know only one person who reached this state, we can talk about spiritual experiences. Many more persons experience this.
This is "just" an harmonious felt sense.
You experience this when you get some energy back after a successful negotiation you can celebrate and rejoice about, because you can go out reinforced by the experience.
You feel energetic, in expantion instead of in constriction.
You also feel connected, to yourself, to others, to the world.
Conexion and expansion are the specific states of bliss, joy, peace, love. And you experience them without any reason, just because you are, just because it is life.

So what do you think is the difference between awakening and a harmonious felt sense?

I lived with a very heavy feeling of grief underneath for as long as I could remember. I thought it was an integral part of me and never expected it would leave. When it completely disappeared I was shocked. After it left, I lived for maybe 6-9 months in a very happy, connected, and harmonious state. I felt like it was some kind of awakening. But after awhile the state was no longer satisfying. I felt like I'd lost some empathy, and wasn't connected enough to other people's pain. I found that I preferred to feel a range of emotions, even uncomfortable ones. So I stopped trying to maintain some kind of perpetual blissful connection to the ground of being, and instead focused on the messiness of living all of everyday life. Several years have passed and I feel much more satisfied now, and have stopped striving for some other kind of awakening or enlightened state. I'm now at the point where I'm wondering if there is actually any awakening apart from this richness that is always happening here and now. What do you think?

 

[Xisca]

I am not sure about awakening, because it is something that is a definitive change, you do not go back.

BUT, I think there is a confusion between dissociating and spiritual bliss!
It is very hard to feel what is freezinf especially in its mild forms.
I am still experimenting about feeling this.

But if you are all the time in the same state, this is freeze, because there are no more waves, and they must go on.
Maybe enlightment is when you get strong enough (at nervous level) to defend yourself without freezing any more. You still fight and flee to save your body, but you do not get the helplessness, the emotion that comes from not being able to be successful. always remember the order of the 3 brains. emotions are in the second one to react.

I think that, as you say you were shocked, that you got some freeze response, in the form of dissociation. When we do not feel, then we are somehow happy. What leads me to this is that not onnly you say you got a surprise shock but also that you did not felt connected. This is a caracteristic of dissociation. We are almost never totally dissociated, you have to thing about dissociation between what and what.

When you say perpetual bliss, this is also not wavy enough to be a connected and not dissociated state.
That is why I think there is a confusion about what is awakening, because dissociation looks like it!
Though it is the opposite....

 

[Heidi]

It is very interesting this connection between disassociation and spiritual states. It seems very common in our culture. It seems like lots of people use spiritual states and seeking as a means to try and escape pain and suffering.

When I was sustaining a state of happiness, I felt very connected and at one with everyone and everything. But I felt disassociated from suffering and other people's pain. When I said shocked I meant surprised, only because the grief had been with me for so long. When the heavy grief left, it took awhile for me to even realize that it had gone, and that in it's place I felt an underlying happiness, or well being, or peace. The underlying feeling tone of my life is what changed. Outward circumstances are always up and down or wavy as you say.

There's a local nondual satsang group that I sometimes attend. I respect the teacher and her awakening seems genuine, but the group often feels pretentious and disassociated, and too focused on the pleasurable meditative and still feelings. I'm very interested in spirituality that is inclusive of the full range of human emotion and experience, and not disassociated from everyday life. It seems tricky to have awakening or grounded spirituality without any disassociation. I've even wondered if I've gone too far the other way and am closing myself off to spiritual feelings or experiences, because I don't want to feel removed or disconnected.

 

[Xisca]

When it is not spirituality, it is science to explain at distance! Of course, not to suffer, right.... I do it too, but I prefer to be conscious and know what I do! I am not enlighted!

It seems that some time is needed to reconnect the felt sense of a new way of being, if i try to feel how it went for you. After the dissociation, the association!

The pleasure of meditation can be to keep activation in check, because of what is frozen. I am not always sure to sense it properly all the time, it is not so easy. When there is energy coming back, I can make the difference in the body, by a sense of expansion and a sense of time that is going on second by second. I feel energetic and curious of the next second. There is loss of time in dissociation, all is global, aerial too.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

It is very interesting this connection between disassociation and spiritual states. It seems very common in our culture. It seems like lots of people use spiritual states and seeking as a means to try and escape pain and suffering.

When I was sustaining a state of happiness, I felt very connected and at one with everyone and everything. But I felt disassociated from suffering and other people's pain. When I said shocked I meant surprised, only because the grief had been with me for so long. When the heavy grief left, it took awhile for me to even realize that it had gone, and that in it's place I felt an underlying happiness, or well being, or peace. The underlying feeling tone of my life is what changed. Outward circumstances are always up and down or wavy as you say.

There's a local nondual satsang group that I sometimes attend. I respect the teacher and her awakening seems genuine, but the group often feels pretentious and disassociated, and too focused on the pleasurable meditative and still feelings. I'm very interested in spirituality that is inclusive of the full range of human emotion and experience, and not disassociated from everyday life. It seems tricky to have awakening or grounded spirituality without any disassociation. I've even wondered if I've gone too far the other way and am closing myself off to spiritual feelings or experiences, because I don't want to feel removed or disconnected.

It's called spiritual bypassing. Spirituality usually includes a lot of techniques to mess with your mind, which means practicioners will use them escape pain. To quote Jung, 'One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.'

If you take a Buddhist monk, and cause him a bit of pain, he will pay attention to it. However, a western beginner meditator will use the same meditative techniques to direct his attention away from the pain.

Anyway, I listened to Levine's lecture:


This stuff is brilliant. Thanks Xisca.

 

[Xisca]

If you take a Buddhist monk, and cause him a bit of pain, he will pay attention to it. However, a western beginner meditator will use the same meditative techniques to direct his attention away from the pain.

Great! SE is doing the same as the monk, and I fight verbally when people talk about using the second! When you know the problem it can bring, it makes you sad that people do the reverse of what works, especially when so easy to do.

Thanks for your thanks, and for this video that is too long for me at the moment.