Ray Peat Diet Gave Me A Fatty Liver?

[leonardo]

Can you help us to understand what you mean by a Ray Peat inspired diet? If you could, for example, go on chronometer.com and provide us with everything that you eat in the course of day, or perhaps a week?

@visionofstrength - thanks for the pointer to toxinless.com ... lots of good info there.
In terms of my daily diet ... the following is a fair representation of what I normally eat:

Morning:
1 cup orange juice (or equivalent citrus juice like sweet lime juice)
1 or 2 cups of coffee with comfortable amount of sugar
2 eggs fried in butter (some days I substitute with Mutton Liver or Oysters)
Gelatin

Mid-Morning:
Carrot Salad (grated carrot, coconut oil, apple cider vinegar)

Lunch:
Rice and Ghee
Lentils
Meat (chicken, mutton or fish)

Afternoon:
Coffee with sugar

Dinner:
Rice and Yoghurt
Gelatin
Chocolate milk with sugar

Some days I also eat home made chocolate ice cream (chocolate + heavy cream + sugar + egg yolks)

-------

Now the strange thing is that I am actually quite skinny and fit looking. The doctor doing the ultra sound was actually surprised that I had a fatty liver.

 

[leonardo]

60g protein in total for one day? Thats pretty low.
What else do you eat?

One of the few pillars of RP's recommendation is to have at least 80 grams of quality
protein. I have seen a big difference between having 70 grams of protein, which i was
getting in the beginning thinking it is close enough, than having 80 grams of protein. I am always skeptical of general claims that people are having all kinds of problems following "RP Diet" . No one knows what is one's definition of RP diet is .
I do not understand how someone gains weight (fat) if there is a weighing scale at home and knows how to count calories. RP does not recommend specific calories for everyone.
One eats according to his/her metabolic rate. There are foods like vegetable-fruit
broth and liver that have tons of nutrients with very little calories.

@Mittir - I actually look very lean and fit. Like I mentioned in another response, the doctor was surprised that I had a fatty liver.
I will try upping my protein intake going forward.

 

[Mittir]

I have seen in mainstream media talking about "Thin Fat" , it's thin on outside and fat on the inside. Here is a msn article on this. I have seen people who are thin got fatty liver
and diabetic. RP has talked about thin person being hypothyroid.

Internal fat can be in the intra-abdominal area, from the top of your hips to the top of your liver. Within this area is a depot of visceral fat, deep within the belly. Fat can be ectopic—hidden in and around organs such as the liver and pancreas. It can also be stored in and around muscles. “The more internal body fat a person has, the more they are setting themselves up for health problems later, because internal fat is correlated with more health risks than external fat. A thin but overfat person without health problems may eventually reach a tipping point where suddenly they develop high blood pressure or Type 2 diabetes,” Bell says.

http://healthyliving.msn.com/diseases/h ... e-inside-1

There is a study done in England , they cured diabetes by putting diabetic patient on a
800 calories diet and this removed stored fat from pancreas and liver. Though RP thinks
safer approach is to slowly replacing the PUFA with saturated fat. In low calorie diet
a large amount of PUFA is released causing a lot of internal damage.

Eight weeks using the diet helped those who took part to lose weight and reduced the amount of fat in their liver and pancreas. Doing so helped to restore their insulin production and put their Type 2 diabetes into remission. Three months later, some had put weight back on, but most still had normal blood glucose control.

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Research/Res ... quid-diet/

I can see you are eating rice twice a day. RP thinks sugar is more suitable in treating
diabetes and impaired glucose metabolism. Fructose does not need insulin to be
metabolised in the cell and pure glucose needs a lot of insulin and poorly metabolised.
Starch causes sharp rise in blood sugar, blood insulin and cortisol. You can try
replacing starch with sugar ( fructose, sucrose, lactose etc) to see if it makes
any difference. Apple juice is high fructose and commercial apple juice is pectin free.
I think pectin in OJ is problematic for many. RP recommends strained OJ from
sweet ripe oranges. Starch and soluble fiber both can feed bad bacteria. You can use cronometer.com to figure out if you are getting enough nutrients.
Protein should be eaten with good amount of carb/sugar to inhibit
stress response from high insulin.

 

[Peata]

I had a mildly fatty liver also show up on U/S pre-Peat. I was also thin.

In the last month I have increased protein to min. 90 g per day but most days I get over 100.

 

[visionofstrength]

In terms of my daily diet ... the following is a fair representation of what I normally eat:

Morning:
1 cup orange juice (or equivalent citrus juice like sweet lime juice)
1 or 2 cups of coffee with comfortable amount of sugar
2 eggs fried in butter (some days I substitute with Mutton Liver or Oysters)
Gelatin

Mid-Morning:
Carrot Salad (grated carrot, coconut oil, apple cider vinegar)

Lunch:
Rice and Ghee
Lentils
Meat (chicken, mutton or fish)

Afternoon:
Coffee with sugar

Dinner:
Rice and Yoghurt
Gelatin
Chocolate milk with sugar

Some days I also eat home made chocolate ice cream (chocolate + heavy cream + sugar + egg yolks)

-------

Now the strange thing is that I am actually quite skinny and fit looking. The doctor doing the ultra sound was actually surprised that I had a fatty liver.

Based on a rough cronometer analysis, the departures from the actual Ray Peat diet would be:

• Excess starch and fiber: risk of endotoxemia causing fatty liver.
• Excess PUFA: PUFA causes fatty liver.
• Insufficient protein and sugar throughout the day: high cortisol during fasting periods causes fatty liver.
• Lentils are anti-thyroid: low thyroid causes fatty liver.
• Insufficient sugar and fat before bed: high cortisol during sleep causes fatty liver.

Separately, you may want to look at your intestinal stress, as measured by peristalsis or digestive disturbance, since persorption of endotoxins from inflamed intestines causes fatty liver.

You may also want to look at your estrogen levels, as measured by stress (mood, prolactin, serotonin, etc.), since excess estrogen is ultimately the cause of fatty liver.

All of these points can be found in Peat's work by searching toxinless.com.

Rough cronometer here, but you may want to do your own?

Also, please remember that the advice given out on this forum by members should not be trusted or relied on, especially to the extent it may differ from Peat's research.

 

[haidut]

Red Bull (or taurine) once per day [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21126079]
Stop niacinamide [Stops fat burning but you also see it improving fatty liver]
Choline [http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/95/4/892.abstract]
Stop progesterone [Keep it simple]
Stop aspirin [Stops burning and release of fat]
Avoid long chain fat
T4 every day [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22574630]

Ok, sat fat good for that liver condition, but why not long chain (sat) fat?

The point is burning the fat or moving it out of the liver but I feel like butter would be more of a setback than coconut oil in that aspect. ALCAR helps too I'm sure.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1941634

I second the recommendations of @Such and would add some of my own. Glycine is just as good as taurine in lowering hepatic fat stores. And the most potent option in IMO is caffeine. A dosage of 600mg+ daily will get the liver lean and healthy again in about 2 weeks. Caffeine is the primary reason coffee is helpful for diabates type II (which btw is a liver condition). Caffeine and glycine is sold as a drug for NAFLD in Russia.
Finally, there is some evidence that alpha lipoic acid helps a lot with fatty liver but given Peat's opinion on it I would not recommend it.

 

[visionofstrength]

Glycine is just as good as taurine in lowering hepatic fat stores. And the most potent option in IMO is caffeine. A dosage of 600mg+ daily will get the liver lean and healthy again in about 2 weeks. ... given Peat's opinion on it I would not recommend it.

As h suggests, Peat spends a great deal of time researching his diet, on the principle of "first do no harm," and does not recommend taking 600 mg of caffeine. Peat himself drinks weak coffee in a cafe con leche throughout the day.

Here, Peat feels that coffee that is too strong may have harmful effects from increasing cortisol if the body has insufficient sugar. He also feels that supplements of amino acids (such as pure taurine or glycine) almost invariably introduce impurities in the manufacturing process.

 

[Peata]

I second the recommendations of @Such and would add some of my own. Glycine is just as good as taurine in lowering hepatic fat stores. And the most potent option in IMO is caffeine. A dosage of 600mg+ daily will get the liver lean and healthy again in about 2 weeks. Caffeine is the primary reason coffee is helpful for diabates type II (which btw is a liver condition). Caffeine and glycine is sold as a drug for NAFLD in Russia.
Finally, there is some evidence that alpha lipoic acid helps a lot with fatty liver but given Peat's opinion on it I would not recommend it.

Do you know how much glycine is recommended in that drug? More specifically, how much gelatin powder would a person need?

 

[Peata]

As h suggests, Peat spends a great deal of time researching his diet, on the principle of "first do no harm," and does not recommend taking 600 mg of caffeine. Peat himself drinks weak coffee in a cafe con leche throughout the day.

Here, Peat feels that coffee that is too strong may have harmful effects from increasing cortisol if the body has insufficient sugar. He also feels that supplements of amino acids (such as pure taurine or glycine) almost invariably introduce impurities in the manufacturing process.

Is it that he doesn't recommend 600 mg short-term for fatty liver or that he doesn't drink it himself because he doesn't have a fatty liver?

 

[visionofstrength]

As h suggests, Peat spends a great deal of time researching his diet, on the principle of "first do no harm," and does not recommend taking 600 mg of caffeine. Peat himself drinks weak coffee in a cafe con leche throughout the day.

Here, Peat feels that coffee that is too strong may have harmful effects from increasing cortisol if the body has insufficient sugar. He also feels that supplements of amino acids (such as pure taurine or glycine) almost invariably introduce impurities in the manufacturing process.

Is it that he doesn't recommend 600 mg short-term for fatty liver or that he doesn't drink it himself because he doesn't have a fatty liver?

Funny! Yes, it's fair to say he does not recommend 600 mg caffeine at all (in fact, the opposite, only small doses in weak coffee), and he doesn't have a fatty liver!

 

[johns74]

It's probably the commercial gelatin what is the problem. It's not the same as home made soups with gelatinous cuts. Link

Your Great Lakes Gelatin is harming your liver.

 

[Mittir]

Is it that he doesn't recommend 600 mg short-term for fatty liver or that he doesn't drink it himself because he doesn't have a fatty liver?

In PUJA hormone interview RP discussed the study that showed 5 and more cups of coffee is protective against cancer and he recommended 3-5 cups of coffee. In another interview
he mentioned he drinks several cups of coffee daily and he uses dark roast coffee.
In peatarian email exchange he mentioned he makes strong drip coffee.
In the same exchange he is talking about 40 mg of magnesium in a cup of
strong coffee made from instant coffee. That is about 10 grams of instant coffee
in a cup . 10 grams of instant coffee has about 300 mg caffeine.
(Edit its 300 mg not 90)
5 cups of strong coffee is about 1500 mg of caffeine.
From nutritiondata 1 cup of regular brewed coffee has 90 mg caffeine.
Drinking 5 cups of brewed coffee gives 450 mg of caffeine.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beverages/3898/2
I used to (pre-peat) have quite high liver enzyme ALT and SGPT and it became normal
only when i started having half to 1 oz of instant coffee everyday. I have experimented
whenever i get less than half an oz of coffee my liver enzymes go up.
I do not eat gelatin , so i am not getting glycine. I will probably need less
if i can tolerate gelatin. I use instant coffee to be sure about the amount i am getting.
I also remember him talking about getting a lot of niacin from coffee.
He has to drink a good amount of coffee to get that much Niacin unless he is using decaf.

http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges#coffee

Coffee
A couple of times I have seen coffee that had been stored near herbs that made it slightly allergenic, but that could probably be noticed in the flavor.

Dry instant coffee is close to 0.5% magnesium, so a cup of strong coffee has about 40 mg. I make strong drip coffee.

The antioxidants in very fresh coffee might have some special value, but I think instant coffee is on average just as good as brewed coffee. The high temperature of espresso gets the most caffeine, lower temperature processes get the minerals and vitamins (mostly niacin) and aroma, but a little less of the caffeine.

It's important not to drink coffee on an empty stomach, it should always be with food, since it increases the metabolic rate, and can deplete glycogen stores.

Drinking coffee with meals will greatly reduce iron absorption. Abnormal thyroid status can affect ferritin level, without necessarily affecting your iron load.

 

[haidut]

I second the recommendations of @Such and would add some of my own. Glycine is just as good as taurine in lowering hepatic fat stores. And the most potent option in IMO is caffeine. A dosage of 600mg+ daily will get the liver lean and healthy again in about 2 weeks. Caffeine is the primary reason coffee is helpful for diabates type II (which btw is a liver condition). Caffeine and glycine is sold as a drug for NAFLD in Russia.
Finally, there is some evidence that alpha lipoic acid helps a lot with fatty liver but given Peat's opinion on it I would not recommend it.

Do you know how much glycine is recommended in that drug? More specifically, how much gelatin powder would a person need?

The Russian drug has 100mg of caffeine and 100mg glycine in every tablet. Recommended intake is 2-3 times a day. Given that gelatin is 30% glycine then a teaspoon of gelatin is more than enough.

 

[Peata]

Is it that he doesn't recommend 600 mg short-term for fatty liver or that he doesn't drink it himself because he doesn't have a fatty liver?

In PUJA hormone interview RP discussed the study that showed 5 and more cups of coffee is protective against cancer and he recommended 3-5 cups of coffee. In another interview
he mentioned he drinks several cups of coffee daily and he uses dark roast coffee.
In peatarian email exchange he mentioned he makes strong drip coffee.
In the same exchange he is talking about 40 mg of magnesium in a cup of
strong coffee made from instant coffee. That is about 10 grams of instant coffee
in a cup . 10 grams of instant coffee has about 90 mg caffeine.
5 cups of strong coffee is about 450 mg of caffeine.
I used to (pre-peat) have quite high liver enzyme ALT and SGPT and it became normal
only when i started having half to 1 oz of instant coffee everyday. I have experimented
whenever i get less than half an oz of coffee my liver enzymes go up.
I do not eat gelatin , so i am not getting glycine. I will probably need less
if i can tolerate gelatin. I use instant coffee to be sure about the amount i am getting.
I also remember him talking about getting a lot of niacin from coffee.
He has to drink a good amount of coffee to get that much Niacin unless he is using decaf.

http://peatarian.com/peatexchanges#coffee

Coffee
A couple of times I have seen coffee that had been stored near herbs that made it slightly allergenic, but that could probably be noticed in the flavor.

Dry instant coffee is close to 0.5% magnesium, so a cup of strong coffee has about 40 mg. I make strong drip coffee.

The antioxidants in very fresh coffee might have some special value, but I think instant coffee is on average just as good as brewed coffee. The high temperature of espresso gets the most caffeine, lower temperature processes get the minerals and vitamins (mostly niacin) and aroma, but a little less of the caffeine.

It's important not to drink coffee on an empty stomach, it should always be with food, since it increases the metabolic rate, and can deplete glycogen stores.

Drinking coffee with meals will greatly reduce iron absorption. Abnormal thyroid status can affect ferritin level, without necessarily affecting your iron load.

See, that's what I thought - that he used strong coffee and thought caffeine was a good, protective substance, I thought that was a given in Peatworld.

 

[Peata]

I second the recommendations of @Such and would add some of my own. Glycine is just as good as taurine in lowering hepatic fat stores. And the most potent option in IMO is caffeine. A dosage of 600mg+ daily will get the liver lean and healthy again in about 2 weeks. Caffeine is the primary reason coffee is helpful for diabates type II (which btw is a liver condition). Caffeine and glycine is sold as a drug for NAFLD in Russia.
Finally, there is some evidence that alpha lipoic acid helps a lot with fatty liver but given Peat's opinion on it I would not recommend it.

Do you know how much glycine is recommended in that drug? More specifically, how much gelatin powder would a person need?

The Russian drug has 100mg of caffeine and 100mg glycine in every tablet. Recommended intake is 2-3 times a day. Given that gelatin is 30% glycine then a teaspoon of gelatin is more than enough.

That's great to know, thank you.

 

[haidut]

Glycine is just as good as taurine in lowering hepatic fat stores. And the most potent option in IMO is caffeine. A dosage of 600mg+ daily will get the liver lean and healthy again in about 2 weeks. ... given Peat's opinion on it I would not recommend it.

As h suggests, Peat spends a great deal of time researching his diet, on the principle of "first do no harm," and does not recommend taking 600 mg of caffeine. Peat himself drinks weak coffee in a cafe con leche throughout the day.

Here, Peat feels that coffee that is too strong may have harmful effects from increasing cortisol if the body has insufficient sugar. He also feels that supplements of amino acids (such as pure taurine or glycine) almost invariably introduce impurities in the manufacturing process.

I meant that the studies I have seen show 600mg of caffeine daily (which probably means split in several doses) is very helpful for reversing NAFLD. Peat prefers to do it with coffee, but if you can find good purity caffeine I don't see why a person can't try caffeine as well. There are also the life extension studies that show 600mg-1,200mg of caffeine is optimal, so that's that. Remember, Peat gives you guidelines and tools not specific instructions on what to do. Take that and experiment. Caffeine is good for the liver and NAFLD, and that's pretty much established fact by both medicine and Peat. Exactly how much everyone needs will be determined by experiment.

 

[visionofstrength]

It's probably the commercial gelatin what is the problem.

Yes, while Peat feels the source of any food or supplement is important, he writes in email that, for gelatin, "I have mostly used either Great Lakes or Gelatin Innovations brands, which are economical by the pound."

 

[Peata]

Re: Eating away from home


Filip1993 wrote:Next week I will leave town with a couple of friends for a golf weekend. I know I will s****y restaurant food, but I'm not going to stress too much about it. Anyways, I still want to eat as healthy as possible. So, what are some good choices when eating out? If you have any experience/tips on what to eat/bring when traveling please share. Thanks.

Edit: I'm going to use some extra aspirin and vitamin e.



I would take it easy on the aspirin. It stops fat burning, and you don't want to store much of that restaurant fat you'll eat. Vitamin E is what you need - it will saturate it and you want to burn it off sooner rather than later.



Does niacinamide also stop the fat burning similar to aspirin?



Yes, niacinamide is also a lipolysis inhibitor and a pretty potent one at that too. There is another thread started recently about fatty liver and things to do to correct it. Caffeine would be good too since it protects the liver and other tissues from the harmful effects of fat oxidation even if it is PUFA you are burning.

****

I tried to move my questions from another person's eating Peat foods away from home to this thread so as not to derail their topic.

Anyway, maybe that's partly why I couldn't lose one pound and kept gaining all year - I was using aspirin and niacinamide a lot, one or the other or both most of the year. I stopped using both except a little niacinamide here and there for the last few weeks and feel I am finally losing a little. Not that it's the sole reason I gained or lost, but maybe it did play its part.

Good to know, thanks Haidut.

 

[visionofstrength]

Glycine is just as good as taurine in lowering hepatic fat stores. And the most potent option in IMO is caffeine. A dosage of 600mg+ daily will get the liver lean and healthy again in about 2 weeks. ... given Peat's opinion on it I would not recommend it.

As h suggests, Peat spends a great deal of time researching his diet, on the principle of "first do no harm," and does not recommend taking 600 mg of caffeine. Peat himself drinks weak coffee in a cafe con leche throughout the day.

Here, Peat feels that coffee that is too strong may have harmful effects from increasing cortisol if the body has insufficient sugar. He also feels that supplements of amino acids (such as pure taurine or glycine) almost invariably introduce impurities in the manufacturing process.

I meant that the studies I have seen show 600mg of caffeine daily (which probably means split in several doses) is very helpful for reversing NAFLD. Peat prefers to do it with coffee, but if you can find good purity caffeine I don't see why a person can't try caffeine as well. There are also the life extension studies that show 600mg-1,200mg of caffeine is optimal, so that's that. Remember, Peat gives you guidelines and tools not specific instructions on what to do. Take that and experiment. Caffeine is good for the liver and NAFLD, and that's pretty much established fact by both medicine and Peat. Exactly how much everyone needs will be determined by experiment.

Peat's important caution is that too much caffeine increases cortisol when there is not enough sugar.

This is why he himself uses coffee mixed in cafe con leche, which is quite weak, not straight black coffee, espresso or caffeine supplements. Over the course of the day (as M points out), he may consume 450 mgs of caffeine or more, but always being careful to avoid the cortisol "jitters" from too much caffeine at once, and not enough sugar.

I mean, someone could ask him if you think that's wrong? If it's not clear that:
Peat would not recommend coffee or caffeine supplements without adequate sugar, and thinks that gradual small dosing over the course of the day is better?

Aside: speaking solely from my own experience, as h suggests, even a single bolus dose of 200 mg caffeine is a roller coaster of cortisol ups and downs, and very difficult to ameliorate with sugar. It would be reckless for me to suggest that this is at all "safe", in Peat's perspective.

Now in another forum, but not Peat's, I think it's worthy of further discussion and experimentation.

 

[Peata]

Since coming to Peat I've always been under the impression we should have coffee with lots of sugar, not black. I've never seen any RP person recommend black coffee at all.

The rare time I have black coffee without dairy and sugar in it, is when I am eating a large portion of something sweet along with it. This is rare. Sometimes I just like black coffee alongside a piece of cake or something, but that's just me.

Adding: I wouldn't think of 600 mg. caffeine in one dose anyway, I was assuming it's PER DAY, if I even go this route.

Adding again: I see I have followed the basic caffeine/glycine regimen for one week now. Where I'm having coffee with gelatin more consistently than I have in a long time. I hope it helps among the other things I'm doing.