Progesterone dominance and emotional lability? Or something else?

[themartian1000]

I am currently aiming to heal my brain using high dose progesterone (I read an interesting account on this forum Progesterone for recovering addict).

However, I have recently had some issues that I've never felt before (tearful, emotional, irritable) since starting progesterone. I've been using Health Natura progesterone that I put into capsules and take with a fatty snack and orange juice. I have aimed for 60mg doses around every 4-6 hours. This is in addition to the suppositories and prometrium I am taking, though I am hoping to phase those out. I have 800mg suppositories, 500mg prometrium and about 300mg Health Natura. However, I know a lot may not be absorbed.

I have done a lot of testing, and my estrogen is normal on the lower end, progesterone at the high end (this was when I was using prometrium and suppositories), so I think things are ok. Thyroid is stable on cytomel (cannot tolerate T4 and never could - on for several years). Diet is pretty Peaty with a lot of milk, orange juice, carbs, low PUFA, etc. Vitamin D is 60, and other labs appear fine.

So, my question is, can I be progesterone dominant now, which is causing all of this? My understanding from reading Ray Peat's stuff is that progesterone is quite safe even at high doses and should not cause problems. I don't think it is estrogen based on labs, so I am not sure what is going on. Is allopregnanolone fluctuating a lot, creating mini-withdrawal? Too much GABAergic (but I thought this would be calming), too little estrogen (seems unlikely).

I'm so confused and really want to heal my poor brain. My doctor took me off a prescribed benzo that I was on just 3 months, but the low progesterone at that time likely left my brain bare. I had a 10 month horror show, put on a medicine called pregabalin (now tapering that but has been stable), and just want my brain and life back!!! I will never take another pharmaceutical again as long as I live!!!

 

[redsun]

I am currently aiming to heal my brain using high dose progesterone (I read an interesting account on this forum Progesterone for recovering addict).

However, I have recently had some issues that I've never felt before (tearful, emotional, irritable) since starting progesterone. I've been using Health Natura progesterone that I put into capsules and take with a fatty snack and orange juice. I have aimed for 60mg doses around every 4-6 hours. This is in addition to the suppositories and prometrium I am taking, though I am hoping to phase those out. I have 800mg suppositories, 500mg prometrium and about 300mg Health Natura. However, I know a lot may not be absorbed.

I have done a lot of testing, and my estrogen is normal on the lower end, progesterone at the high end (this was when I was using prometrium and suppositories), so I think things are ok. Thyroid is stable on cytomel (cannot tolerate T4 and never could - on for several years). Diet is pretty Peaty with a lot of milk, orange juice, carbs, low PUFA, etc. Vitamin D is 60, and other labs appear fine.

So, my question is, can I be progesterone dominant now, which is causing all of this? My understanding from reading Ray Peat's stuff is that progesterone is quite safe even at high doses and should not cause problems. I don't think it is estrogen based on labs, so I am not sure what is going on. Is allopregnanolone fluctuating a lot, creating mini-withdrawal? Too much GABAergic (but I thought this would be calming), too little estrogen (seems unlikely).

I'm so confused and really want to heal my poor brain. My doctor took me off a prescribed benzo that I was on just 3 months, but the low progesterone at that time likely left my brain bare. I had a 10 month horror show, put on a medicine called pregabalin (now tapering that but has been stable), and just want my brain and life back!!! I will never take another pharmaceutical again as long as I live!!!

Everyone likes to take things based on very little information they receive and this leads to unforseen problems. Progesterone is not a pro-gaba substance. No hormone can be classified as this one dimensional. Progesterone can increase sex hormones by inhibiting GABA in the medial preoptic area which is an important area needed for sex hormone production. So in this way, it can be good. But the other issue is it also decreases GABA in the amygdala by decreasing GAD enzyme (which makes GABA from glutamate). This leads to higher glutamatergic activity in the amygdala which is an area in the brain involved in emotion. You can easily imagine how by exciting the amygdala this can cause emotional lability.

What exactly are you trying to heal in your brain?

 

[sun-maid]

I am currently aiming to heal my brain using high dose progesterone (I read an interesting account on this forum Progesterone for recovering addict).

However, I have recently had some issues that I've never felt before (tearful, emotional, irritable) since starting progesterone. I've been using Health Natura progesterone that I put into capsules and take with a fatty snack and orange juice. I have aimed for 60mg doses around every 4-6 hours. This is in addition to the suppositories and prometrium I am taking, though I am hoping to phase those out. I have 800mg suppositories, 500mg prometrium and about 300mg Health Natura. However, I know a lot may not be absorbed.

I have done a lot of testing, and my estrogen is normal on the lower end, progesterone at the high end (this was when I was using prometrium and suppositories), so I think things are ok. Thyroid is stable on cytomel (cannot tolerate T4 and never could - on for several years). Diet is pretty Peaty with a lot of milk, orange juice, carbs, low PUFA, etc. Vitamin D is 60, and other labs appear fine.

So, my question is, can I be progesterone dominant now, which is causing all of this? My understanding from reading Ray Peat's stuff is that progesterone is quite safe even at high doses and should not cause problems. I don't think it is estrogen based on labs, so I am not sure what is going on. Is allopregnanolone fluctuating a lot, creating mini-withdrawal? Too much GABAergic (but I thought this would be calming), too little estrogen (seems unlikely).

I'm so confused and really want to heal my poor brain. My doctor took me off a prescribed benzo that I was on just 3 months, but the low progesterone at that time likely left my brain bare. I had a 10 month horror show, put on a medicine called pregabalin (now tapering that but has been stable), and just want my brain and life back!!! I will never take another pharmaceutical again as long as I live!!!

Have you tried Progest-E ?

 

[themartian1000]

Have you tried Progest-E ?

I have both Progest-E and Health Natura (and a compounded suppository and prometrium lol). I found Progest-E harder to work with and not a lot different, but maybe I should try again.

 

[themartian1000]

Everyone likes to take things based on very little information they receive and this leads to unforseen problems. Progesterone is not a pro-gaba substance. No hormone can be classified as this one dimensional. Progesterone can increase sex hormones by inhibiting GABA in the medial preoptic area which is an important area needed for sex hormone production. So in this way, it can be good. But the other issue is it also decreases GABA in the amygdala by decreasing GAD enzyme (which makes GABA from glutamate). This leads to higher glutamatergic activity in the amygdala which is an area in the brain involved in emotion. You can easily imagine how by exciting the amygdala this can cause emotional lability.

What exactly are you trying to heal in your brain?

Yes, I have read those studies about the varied effects of progesterone. At this point, I know that I need something powerful but also natural to help heal the damage that the prescribed benzos, and subsequent cold turkey did. I was told to just hold on and that I would heal. I was unable to function due to the glutamate receptor sensitivity (vomiting, screaming in my head, could not focus on anything or talk to anyone, a horror show beyond belief). I was then put on pregabalin, which pulled me out partially, but not completely.

I feel mentally atrocious. I have done as much as I can with all other modalities (and believe me when I say I have tried all the standard things). DHEA seems to give me rage, even at low doses, pregnenolone does very little.

However, I noticed that I felt a lot better during my luteal phase and absolutely horrid as my hormones fell. Since I am perimenopausal, I felt good maybe 3 days a month. This led me to believe that there may be something healing about progesterone (though estrogen is high at that time too, so perhaps I need both?) Progesterone has been a partial success only. It was honestly my last hope in all of this :-(

 

[Yonebayashian]

Have you ever thought of trying NSI-189?

 

[themartian1000]

Have you ever thought of trying NSI-189?

I have some! Do you have any experience with it? I have heard such variable responses, I was worried it might make me anxious or more emotional. That said, if it could do some real healing, I would do it in a heart beat. I am tapering off pregabalin, which causes mini surges in glutamate and norepinephrine, so I have to figure that out too. What a mess!

 

[des yeux]

How much total progesterone are you taking per day? If you are perimenopausal I imagine you wouldn't need more than 500mg/day to suppress ovulation and your period altogether. Did you try suppressing your cycle? Do you measure your temperature/pulse?

Do you normally feel full of stress hormones and on the edge? Katharina Dalton blames adrenaline when Progesterone isn't doing its job. Peat blames thyroid and prolactin. What's your day to day life like?

 

[InChristAlone]

Sorry to hear about your terrifying experience with benzos, they are truly awful drugs. May I suggest not doing progesterone? Being too emotional will not heal your brain. Being able to separate ourselves from the experience and become the observer has been shown to heal people's suffering (not disassociation). A workbook about this is called "Get out of your mind and into your life: The new acceptance and commitment therapy"

For the bodily symptoms you could try vitamin B3 it has been used to ease withdrawal from benzos.

 

[themartian1000]

How much total progesterone are you taking per day? If you are perimenopausal I imagine you wouldn't need more than 500mg/day to suppress ovulation and your period altogether. Did you try suppressing your cycle? Do you measure your temperature/pulse?

Do you normally feel full of stress hormones and on the edge? Katharina Dalton blames adrenaline when Progesterone isn't doing its job. Peat blames thyroid and prolactin. What's your day to day life like?

Thank so much for your thoughtful reply. I am perimenopausal and am likely on too much, but hoping maybe the extra will heal my brain (or maybe it's making me feel awful, I'm not sure!) Peat speaks so highly of progesterone and says you won't overdose, so I felt comfortable increasing it. I am not sure how much I absorb of the suppository or even prometrium (or any of it for that matter).

I measure my temperature with an Oura ring which is how I register how I am doing. When I am feeling my best during the luteal phase, my temperatures are about 0.7 degrees higher than normal (on this ring) and about 99.5. Lower than that, an I start feeling anxious. I do feel very much full of stress hormones, and take T3 (labs show T3 in the middle of the range). My pulse is around 80, temp around 99.3, though Oura temps are ranging from -0.5 to 0.0 oddly.

I feel like my glutamate receptors have likely been damaged from the benzo, but that was 15 months ago. I know it can take ages to heal, but I am hoping I can speed it up a bit more as I feel like I can't take much more of this torment (anxiety, feeling on edge, irritable, difficulty doing anything really).

If you have any thoughts or suggestions, I'd pretty much do anything at this point! Thanks for listening.

 

[redsun]

Thank so much for your thoughtful reply. I am perimenopausal and am likely on too much, but hoping maybe the extra will heal my brain (or maybe it's making me feel awful, I'm not sure!) Peat speaks so highly of progesterone and says you won't overdose, so I felt comfortable increasing it. I am not sure how much I absorb of the suppository or even prometrium (or any of it for that matter).

I measure my temperature with an Oura ring which is how I register how I am doing. When I am feeling my best during the luteal phase, my temperatures are about 0.7 degrees higher than normal (on this ring) and about 99.5. Lower than that, an I start feeling anxious. I do feel very much full of stress hormones, and take T3 (labs show T3 in the middle of the range). My pulse is around 80, temp around 99.3, though Oura temps are ranging from -0.5 to 0.0 oddly.

I feel like my glutamate receptors have likely been damaged from the benzo, but that was 15 months ago. I know it can take ages to heal, but I am hoping I can speed it up a bit more as I feel like I can't take much more of this torment (anxiety, feeling on edge, irritable, difficulty doing anything really).

If you have any thoughts or suggestions, I'd pretty much do anything at this point! Thanks for listening.

Ever tried choline supplementation from something like sunflower lecithin? How much choline do you currently get daily? Its needed for acetylcholine (Ach) which has calming effects, like GABA but mainly it helps antagonize norepinephrine in the brain. Norepinephrine is a major excitatory neurotransmitter that when uncontrolled causes many problems and Ach is mainly what controls it. Anxiety, feeling on edge, irritable can definitely be due to high NE.

Animal meat is the best source of B6 which the body needs to make its own GABA. They also contain iron and zinc in good amounts (especially red meat) which are important calming minerals. Eggs and dairy are poor sources of glycine while meat is very high in it and this also tends to be sedative, especially to an overactive nervous system. A very high dairy diet is terrible for women (but anyone really in the long term) by the way since they are already prone to iron deficiency which causes many issues including ones dealing with too much excitation in the brain. I would limit dairy to no more than 3 servings a day and get tested for iron deficiency.

 

[des yeux]

You're right that progesterone is the safest thing to 'overdose on'. I just think it's important to contextualize and re-evaluate if things aren't working out. Do you happen to know why your period isn't suppressed despite 500+mg of progesterone per day? Menstrual suppression with progesterone could be very useful: being perimenopausal already means a higher estrogen load. Are you going through stressful events in your life, and did you remove the initial stressor that caused you insomnia? Is it too cloudy where you live?

The general idea is that you may need a super-environment to overcome the damage done by benzos or the stress at that time of your life, this includes diet, activities, and chemicals. redsun mentioned a potential iron deficiency with your current diet. In one of Peat's articles he talks specifically about the anti-thermogenic effects of estrogen:

Estrogen production is facilitated when tissue is cooler, and it lowers body temperature. Estrogen and the endorphins act together in many ways (including the behavior of estrus), and naloxone (the antagonist of morphine and the endorphins) raises body temperature and in other ways opposes estrogen. Naloxone has been found to improve the symptoms of demented people, and I have seen it quickly, and dramatically, improve the mental clarity of a 60 year old woman who had used estrogen. It, like clonidine (the anti-adrenaline drug), is a good candidate for controlling the hot flashes and other symptoms of menopause.​

So you could try artificially raising your temperatures with 250w incandescent lamps shined on your head and body, or in addition to Peat basics (thyroid, progesterone, aspirin, vitamin D), try naltrexone, cyproheptadine, or clonidine. cyproheptadine is OTC, did you have a chance to try it already?

 

[des yeux]

@themartian1000 Another quote in an old (1991) Peat newsletter:

The main inhibitory transmitter substance in the brain is GABA (gamma amino butyric acid), which is closely related to aspartic and succinic acids. GABA has many anti-stress effects, besides the direct brain- quieting action. For example, it causes a sequestration of insulin, keeping some sugar from being turned into fat, and it promotes progesterone formation, which protects many systems from damaging hyperactivity. Succinic acid was found by Szent- Gyorgyi to stimulate tissue respiration. Others found that it promotes the production of protective steroids, and more recently it was found to be the best material for chelating and removing aluminum from mitochondria. Succinic acid was identified as a major component of Vladimir Filatov's biogenic stimulators of tissue regeneration. Finding food sources rich in this material(especially in combination with the closely related butyric acid) would be desirable. I experimented with various herbs known to have antihistamine and anticholinergic action, with the thought that they would help to sustain blood sugar through the night. (For example, insulin secretion is stimulated by acetylcholine from cholinergic nerves, and lowering its action duringthe night would decrease the need for adrenalin and cortisol.) My best results so far have been with a combination of the mildly sedative Jimson weed and the stimulant Ephedra; in combination, it seems that their antihistamine and glucose sustaining effects predominate, allowing comfortable sleep without the dry-mouth effect of their anticholinergic action.

So an antihistamine isn't the worst, but he suggests light at the end of it as well.

 

[themartian1000]

@themartian1000 Another quote in an old (1991) Peat newsletter:

So an antihistamine isn't the worst, but he suggests light at the end of it as well.

Fascinating - thank you!

 

[themartian1000]

You're right that progesterone is the safest thing to 'overdose on'. I just think it's important to contextualize and re-evaluate if things aren't working out. Do you happen to know why your period isn't suppressed despite 500+mg of progesterone per day? Menstrual suppression with progesterone could be very useful: being perimenopausal already means a higher estrogen load. Are you going through stressful events in your life, and did you remove the initial stressor that caused you insomnia? Is it too cloudy where you live?

The general idea is that you may need a super-environment to overcome the damage done by benzos or the stress at that time of your life, this includes diet, activities, and chemicals. redsun mentioned a potential iron deficiency with your current diet. In one of Peat's articles he talks specifically about the anti-thermogenic effects of estrogen:


So you could try artificially raising your temperatures with 250w incandescent lamps shined on your head and body, or in addition to Peat basics (thyroid, progesterone, aspirin, vitamin D), try naltrexone, cyproheptadine, or clonidine. cyproheptadine is OTC, did you have a chance to try it already?

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I believe the insomnia was caused by the perimenopause itself and the progesterone imbalance. It was a highly stressful time with the start of the pandemic as well, and I wasn't dealing with it well. Since then, I have removed all of the stressors, but of course the stressor of the neural excitation continues. As it continues, the strain in places on my mind and spirit are overwhelming. I am improving slowly, but it is hard to feel like hanging on sometimes.

I have tried everything mentioned except clonidine, though I do have carvedilol, which is an alpha and beta antagonist, so clonidine but with extra features. I use it on occasion, but am not excited to become dependent on another chemical. It is not super helpful, but perhaps my dose is too low.

I have cyproheptadine, it makes me very groggy for a long time, but perhaps worth trying again at very low doses and working my way up.

I hadn't thought of heating myself up, but this is worth a try. My temps tend to be good due to the thyroid and progesterone supplementation (98.5 - 99.5). I do tend to suppress ovulation on most occasions, but just haven't gotten the rhythm of how to absorb progesterone adequately. I have tried the method of applying to the gums, applying to the skin and swallowing with olive oil. I've gotten good results at times, but none that I could sustain for some reason (I assess using basal body temperature - I feel good when +0.5, but I am often at -0.5). I think if I could get this part right, then I might feel worlds better. Perhaps I should be a bit more persistent and stubborn about continuous application in various ways, not worrying about sedation. I was once very energetic and lively, so it is hard to be sedated, but better than feeling dreadful I suppose. I have also done some salt, which helps as well.

Thanks for sharing and hopefully I will have some good results soon.

 

[PeskyPeater]

But progesterone is a sigma-1 antagonist, I think it makes more sense to use some DHEA, sigma-1 agonist, intra-nasal instead or mixed.
By the way, if you are looking to fix gaba take alook at Dang gui it's a partial gaba agonist

 

[Kaur Singh]

hypothyroid

if you find yourself taking that much progesterone and it's not having a corresponding effect:
hypothyroid

if you are constantly needing progesterone:
hypothyroid

emotional lability goes with estrogen

preventing ovulation often is defeating the purpose of having your own body produce progesterone...

spend some time reading Peat, he's got a great book for you:
"FROM PMS To MENOPAUSE: Female Hormones in Context"

keep it simple

The Estrogen Industry, the magic of progesterone and the importance of thyroid with Dr Ray Peat & Kate Deering - Weight Loss For Women: eat more, train less, get results

We've had Dr Ray Peat on the podcast twice before and his episode with Emma Sgourakis - The Nutrition Coach is the most downloaded podcast episode of all time!So Kate and I decided to get him back on to do a deep dive into hormones.This is a 2-hou...

www.winatlifepodcast.com.au

 

[mostlylurking]

At this point, I know that I need something powerful but also natural to help heal the damage that the prescribed benzos, and subsequent cold turkey did.

I found this: The Nightmare of Benzodiazepine Withdrawal- Hormones Matter

"Even if you have successfully and easily gone off them in the past, I strongly suggest anyone who wants to taper off go to the Benzo Buddies site and read the various methods of tapering. Educate yourself. The most common taper method is the Ashton Protocol. Dr. Ashton ran a benzo withdrawal clinic in the U.K. and has probably done the most research of anyone on benzos and how to safely get off them."

 

[themartian1000]

I found this: The Nightmare of Benzodiazepine Withdrawal- Hormones Matter

"Even if you have successfully and easily gone off them in the past, I strongly suggest anyone who wants to taper off go to the Benzo Buddies site and read the various methods of tapering. Educate yourself. The most common taper method is the Ashton Protocol. Dr. Ashton ran a benzo withdrawal clinic in the U.K. and has probably done the most research of anyone on benzos and how to safely get off them."

That ship has sailed. I'm off 16 months now, not going back on. But tapering pregabalin using this method. Hoping progesterone heals me enough to do it. Ray Peat has some pretty compelling stories of healing people on seizure meds and people with damage from them with progesterone. Doesn't matter as this is prettu much my only option.

 

[themartian1000]

hypothyroid

if you find yourself taking that much progesterone and it's not having a corresponding effect:
hypothyroid

if you are constantly needing progesterone:
hypothyroid

emotional lability goes with estrogen

preventing ovulation often is defeating the purpose of having your own body produce progesterone...

spend some time reading Peat, he's got a great book for you:
"FROM PMS To MENOPAUSE: Female Hormones in Context"

keep it simple

The Estrogen Industry, the magic of progesterone and the importance of thyroid with Dr Ray Peat & Kate Deering - Weight Loss For Women: eat more, train less, get results

We've had Dr Ray Peat on the podcast twice before and his episode with Emma Sgourakis - The Nutrition Coach is the most downloaded podcast episode of all time!So Kate and I decided to get him back on to do a deep dive into hormones.This is a 2-hou...

www.winatlifepodcast.com.au

Normally I'd say absolutely 100%. But in my case, I have a medication induced brain injury and now tapering off another highly toxic drug. It's a mess. I do take thyroid and my tests are pretty good now. I'd ovulated but my brain isn't able to deal with the roller coaster at this point. It's a crap road, and I hate my doctor. But it's my fault for taking the drug and trusting too. But none of that matters at this point. I just have to find a way to heal.