High Dose Progesterone Increasing My Insulin Resistance?

[freyasam]

I don't have any study right now, but it would make sense for very large doses of progesterone to cause insulin "resistance". Women have very high levels of progesterone during pregnancy, and Ray has talked about this as an effect that spares glucose for the baby. I don't think that this is a bad effect, and you would probably want to get an OGT before jumping to any conclusions. Do you know you blood levels of estrogen, progesterone, etc?

They're within range normal. Four years ago when I started questioning whether the progest-e I was taking back then was increasing my insulin resistance, my estrogen was out of range low and progesterone was in range normal. Don't have numbers for then or now.

What's an ogt?

 

[rei]

Insulin resistance means that you need more insulin to achieve same function. This is not true with progesterone.

 

[rei]

-

 

[Kartoffel]

They're within range normal. Four years ago when I started questioning whether the progest-e I was taking back then was increasing my insulin resistance, my estrogen was out of range low and progesterone was in range normal. Don't have numbers for then or now.

What's an ogt?

Sorry, I meant OGTT (Oral Glucose Tolerance Test). I think that if I was in your place, I would also do what others have suggested - discontinue the Prometrium and replace it with the same amount of progest-E. It's the only progesterone formula I trust. Can you provide a little more detailed information on your diet, and maybe what other supplements you might take?

 

[freyasam]

Just to sum up --

Progest-e is responsible for the inch of fat gained on my stomach, the underarm discoloration indicating insulin problems, and the increased facial flushing. I know because it's the only change I've made.

Progest-e has caused these issues in the past. Even at doses of up to 400 mg / day. I stopped the PE, problems went away. Other brands of progesterone have no effect.

Prometrium is not responsible for these issues, because I didn't have them on prometrium only. But yes, I will stop it to see what happens.

 

[freyasam]

Peat said when asked that prometrium's progesterone is fine. He doesn't like the fillers. But it is not a progestin. It is progesterone.

 

[mostlylurking]

I had an ovarian cyst years ago. The doctor gave me a shot of progesterone and the cyst ruptured/went away in a few days. He said if the shot didn't work I'd have to have surgery. But it worked.

The fat around your waist sounds like estrogen dominance.

Although I read this thread through, I don't know your history regarding thyroid supplementation. I think thyroid is key. I've been through a difficult time because I was on Armour thyroid and they changed their formula so it doesn't work. Now I take NP Thyroid by Acella which does work. There is a discussion on the different brands of thyroid here: Options for Thyroid Treatment - Stop The Thyroid Madness

Peat has talked about needing to do progesterone 2 weeks on then 2 weeks off with your cycle, otherwise your liver will just almost instantly remove it. The 2 weeks off somehow resets your liver so it doesn't remove the progesterone so quickly. This was discussed on an Herb Doctors show, maybe this one: http://www.westernbotanicalmedicine.com/audio/Hormones, HRT, Estrogen and Metabolism.mp3 unless it's this one: http://www.westernbotanicalmedicine.com/audio/2018 Female Hormones Progesterone Q&A Jan 2018.mp3

I use a mix of bio-identical progesterone and vitamin E that I get the compounding pharmacy to make for me. It is a compounded prescription. It's raised my progesterone level on my blood work to a good range. Progest-E didn't work for me; I needed a higher dose.

 

[TNT]

Progesterone increases my insulin resistance, too. I don't know why.

 

[Ella]

I am already overweight and carry most of that fat in my belly. Also, I've had an increase in Acanthosis nigricans (underarm discoloration). Both of these symptoms suggest an increase in insulin resistance.

Both these symptoms also suggests high cortisol and estrogen. Belly fat is cortisol fat and estrogen dominance.

What steps are you taking to improve liver detoxification pathways?

If you have a high % fat you will be producing loads of estrogen. How was estrogen tested? Which part of your cycle? If low in the blood, you can still have high in the cell.

Are you doing the raw carrot to help with efficient excretion of hormones? Remember, they can be deconjugated and make their way back to the liver again.

Acanthosis Nigricans | International Journal of Clinical & Medical Images

Exercise is not possible for me at this time. I have severe CFS, and it's a struggle just to cook for myself.

Are you eating sufficient calories and good quality proteins like lamb, beef and oysters.

Usually, overweight individuals are frightened to eat sufficient calories. Females especially need to maintain a cycle which requires an investment in providing the body with energy by eating regularly meals with sufficient calories.

You say you are eating plenty of carbs. What sort of carbs are you eating and how much?

If you are in your late 30s, you may be trying to juggling a demanding career, family obligations - its a ***t life for females with little time for self care. The toll on our health is enormous.

There is no magic pill or hormone that can wipe out this kind of stress. Our fertility suffers and we lose sight of the person we always dreamed of becoming. We no longer recognise ourselves.

From someone who has been there, seize control of your life. You need to stop and reassess what is not right in your life and start freeing up time for self care.

If you live a crazy stressful lifestyle, where meals are all over the place, bad sleep habits, wrong type of exercise with insufficient calories, then cortisol is going to be sky high. Unless you burn yourself out. If you have CFS, then you probably in the "give up" state. The body slowing metabolism in an attempt to increase nutrient reserves.

This is the most likely reason why you are intolerant to thyroid hormone at this point in time. However, thyroid will help to clear cortisol. You need to furnish the body with nourishing foods to support all that happening in your body and life.

Do you have labs on thyroid hormones, including RT3? If you are hypothyroid, then you will require more magnesium and calcium is require to increase metabolism and to support your cycle. People always underestimate how much food the body needs.

I remember being intolerant to progesterone and thyroid. Pg made me go crazy and pregnenolone made me feel invincible but gave me a fat face.

When you are estrogen dominant and high cortisol - it is the most scariest and an absolute roller coaster ride.

The fact you are going months without a period points to insufficient energy and perhaps you are not eating to meet your needs or your lifestyle is rapidly depleting you of valuable nutrients.

You say you are on point. How do you know you are meeting your requirements for minerals and nutrients. What about malabsorption issues?

 

[tara]

I gained weight including lean and fat for a while while supplementing with larger amounts of progesterone. I don't say that was the cause, because there were multiple factors that I can't separate out clearly, including dietary changes. I was taking the progest-e continuously, not 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, so I would guess my liver got more efficient at removing it. I was also not very consistent about precise dosing for some of that time.

I'm not sure it's so easy to know about causes - when there are internal changes going on, sometimes they may be having effects of their own, apart from the effects of things you are actively doing. The cysts and whatever is going on with that may be having other effects too?

well here you are at your dead end.
I'd suggest you put this story into a 2 or 3 brief sentences terminating with your last comments regarding mag,cal, etc
(especially if its been a while since you last communicated)
If not I'd suggest you stop trying to follow his model because you obviously require a next step for it to succeed
and if he doesn't know or want to say then its prolly safest to abandon otherwise you're just repeating the same
experiment over and over with the same result. You already know the results up to this point, you either need additional variables
or you should move on.

I still think its a safe bet you're missing a/multiple rate limiters
and that literally could be ANY required micro nutrient from iodine to A or D and or and or and or and or and or

+1
Whether or not you pursue further communication with Peat, consider mineral and vitamin sources?

There is no magic pill or hormone that can wipe out this kind of stress.

+1

Most of Peat's ideas just don't work for me.

Do you want to spell out what you are eating these days? Have you had a go at running it through cronometer or similar lately?
I can't remember the detail of conversation since then - is this (2014) still a reflection of your diet and your interpretation of Peat's ideas?:

It's easier to say "I've been Peating for a year" instead of "I've been avoiding PUFAs, emphasizing fruit over starch, limiting vegetables except for carrots and potatoes, getting as much light as possible, watching calcium to phosphorus ratio, and experimenting with aspirin, niacinamide, progest-e, magnesium, etc, for a year."

If so, there could be more to be gained by reconsidering/testing aspects of this.

I've no expertise in the area of cysts or other growths. It sounds to me like something is amiss with appropriate cell differentiation and apoptosis under at least local if not systemic stress conditions. If what you are doing isn't working, keep looking.

Hope things go well and you can turn this around.

 

[freyasam]

If you are in your late 30s, you may be trying to juggling a demanding career, family obligations - its a ***t life for females with little time for self care. The toll on our health is enormous.

There is no magic pill or hormone that can wipe out this kind of stress. Our fertility suffers and we lose sight of the person we always dreamed of becoming. We no longer recognise ourselves.

From someone who has been there, seize control of your life. You need to stop and reassess what is not right in your life and start freeing up time for self care.

Well, I could say I no longer recognize myself and many of my dreams have been smashed, but not because of career and family obligations. Having kids or a career are two things illness has stolen from me, at least at this time for the career part (I doubt children will ever be in the cards for me now). I was working part time, online, at home for a few years but this year I'm struggling to just maintain domestic tasks, and my boyfriend does over half the housework. So I'm not currently doing any work. I have a ten minute standing tolerance, to give you an idea of the level of fatigue.

 

[freyasam]

I gained weight including lean and fat for a while while supplementing with larger amounts of progesterone. I don't say that was the cause, because there were multiple factors that I can't separate out clearly, including dietary changes. I was taking the progest-e continuously, not 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, so I would guess my liver got more efficient at removing it. I was also not very consistent about precise dosing for some of that time.

I'm not sure it's so easy to know about causes - when there are internal changes going on, sometimes they may be having effects of their own, apart from the effects of things you are actively doing. The cysts and whatever is going on with that may be having other effects too?


+1
Whether or not you pursue further communication with Peat, consider mineral and vitamin sources?


+1


Do you want to spell out what you are eating these days? Have you had a go at running it through cronometer or similar lately?
I can't remember the detail of conversation since then - is this (2014) still a reflection of your diet and your interpretation of Peat's ideas?:

If so, there could be more to be gained by reconsidering/testing aspects of this.

I've no expertise in the area of cysts or other growths. It sounds to me like something is amiss with appropriate cell differentiation and apoptosis under at least local if not systemic stress conditions. If what you are doing isn't working, keep looking.

Hope things go well and you can turn this around.

Tara, thanks for weighing in and your well wishes.

Yeah, I did a hair mineral analysis with Garrett Smith and his supplements made me feel worse. Gave up on that whole route.

I'm eating intuitively now, not really following Peat super closely. I try to minimize pufa but I don't have the energy or strength to make pristine meals all the time when I'm ravenously hungry yet debilitated with fatigue. I don't have the energy to do cronometer anymore but I'd reckon I get over 3000 cal, a lot is carb and protein is probably low according to Peat but I just go with what my body wants.

I'm so tired of tinkering with diet. It never worked anyway. And every time I list specifically what I eat, I get comments telling me "of course you're sick, you should eat more like xyz." It's really exhausting. I'm sure now I'll get someone saying "why are you eating 3000 cal when you're obese." The answer of course is that I'm hungry.

I've been in Peat communities since early 2014. I've pretty much tried all the interventions people regularly recommend. Before that I tried all kinds of other diets and approaches. IDK, maybe I'm just gonna be sick. But I'd still like to know why and how progest-e but not RX progesterone makes me gain stomach fat. :)

 

[freyasam]

Another question:

the ovarian cysts are PARAovarian cysts, which means they're outside the ovaries. My gynecologist swears these cysts aren't releasing hormones or contributing to my symptoms, but she says I can have laparoscopic surgery to remove them if I want.

Anyone know if surgical removal of paraovarian cysts would help things?

 

[tara]

I'm eating intuitively now, not really following Peat super closely. I try to minimize pufa but I don't have the energy or strength to make pristine meals all the time when I'm ravenously hungry yet debilitated with fatigue. I don't have the energy to do cronometer anymore but I'd reckon I get over 3000 cal, a lot is carb and protein is probably low according to Peat but I just go with what my body wants.

I understand not having energy to keep measuring and being 'pristine, and I'm not sure what standard would make sense to be 'pristine' to anyway, unless you've already figured out what works for you in detail.

My experience of large hunger at times in the past has sometimes seemed to be related to missing particular micro nutrition - I keep wanting to eat more till I get it, even if the food I'm eating isn't giving me what I need and is actually making me feel worse. Takes experimenting to figure out what is missing.

For me ATM, after a period of eating more sugar and less starch and veges, I've drifted into eating more veges, including greens, than ever, and enjoying them more than ever. I seem to need small portions of protein at least 3-4 x/day, with the biggest round midday. Really noticing I don't do so well with too much refined sugars or white rice.

Also really observing and taking seriously that some foods don't do me any good at this time, and I'd best avoid them, even if they are fine for other people.

For me, and as you know I don't assume it will be the same for anyone else, I think I've had benefit from supplementing small amounts of of some micronutrients, esp. B-vits and some minerals.

 

[freyasam]

I understand not having energy to keep measuring and being 'pristine, and I'm not sure what standard would make sense to be 'pristine' to anyway, unless you've already figured out what works for you in detail.

My experience of large hunger at times in the past has sometimes seemed to be related to missing particular micro nutrition - I keep wanting to eat more till I get it, even if the food I'm eating isn't giving me what I need and is actually making me feel worse. Takes experimenting to figure out what is missing.

For me ATM, after a period of eating more sugar and less starch and veges, I've drifted into eating more veges, including greens, than ever, and enjoying them more than ever. I seem to need small portions of protein at least 3-4 x/day, with the biggest round midday. Really noticing I don't do so well with too much refined sugars or white rice.

Also really observing and taking seriously that some foods don't do me any good at this time, and I'd best avoid them, even if they are fine for other people.

For me, and as you know I don't assume it will be the same for anyone else, I think I've had benefit from supplementing small amounts of of some micronutrients, esp. B-vits and some minerals.

Which B vits do you supplement?

I've tried most of the B's, all the fat-sol vitamins, magnesium, calcium, potassium, boron, manganese and probably lots of other micros and the hunger never seems to budge. Went from thin all my life to obese in just a few years.

 

[Cirion]

Try brewer's/nutritional yeast. I'm a big fan of it ever since Nate recommended them to me. It's "natures's" form of a B vitamin supplement, and I always prefer natural sources of vitamins. I like to have it with my spinach / mushroom / carrot + butter (and salt) "salad", and I always feel pretty good after so I know all those nutrients are doing me good.

I just had Liverwurst for the first time, and I felt good after this also. I think organ meat is pretty much the best source of vitamin B12 you can get. Plus COQ10 (which I just learned about today) which apparently is crucial for thyroid support. I'll probably never have any other meat again for my protein. It even is a good source of choline, which kind of mitigates the need for egg protein (so you can avoid the PUFA's therein).

Good luck. Being hypo is not a fun time. I'm probably not as bad off as you, but I can still feel your pain, it has been a long road for me too and I've still got a ways to go. I can almost definitely say at least a big part of the problem is a deficiency in one or two vitamins and minerals though, that's been my experience.

 

[freyasam]

Try brewer's/nutritional yeast. I'm a big fan of it ever since Nate recommended them to me. It's "natures's" form of a B vitamin supplement, and I always prefer natural sources of vitamins. I like to have it with my spinach / mushroom / carrot + butter (and salt) "salad", and I always feel pretty good after so I know all those nutrients are doing me good.

I just had Liverwurst for the first time, and I felt good after this also. I think organ meat is pretty much the best source of vitamin B12 you can get. Plus COQ10 (which I just learned about today) which apparently is crucial for thyroid support. I'll probably never have any other meat again for my protein. It even is a good source of choline, which kind of mitigates the need for egg protein (so you can avoid the PUFA's therein).

Good luck. Being hypo is not a fun time. I'm probably not as bad off as you, but I can still feel your pain, it has been a long road for me too and I've still got a ways to go. I can almost definitely say at least a big part of the problem is a deficiency in one or two vitamins and minerals though, that's been my experience.

Thanks.

Try brewer's/nutritional yeast. I'm a big fan of it ever since Nate recommended them to me. It's "natures's" form of a B vitamin supplement, and I always prefer natural sources of vitamins. I like to have it with my spinach / mushroom / carrot + butter (and salt) "salad", and I always feel pretty good after so I know all those nutrients are doing me good.

I just had Liverwurst for the first time, and I felt good after this also. I think organ meat is pretty much the best source of vitamin B12 you can get. Plus COQ10 (which I just learned about today) which apparently is crucial for thyroid support. I'll probably never have any other meat again for my protein. It even is a good source of choline, which kind of mitigates the need for egg protein (so you can avoid the PUFA's therein).

Good luck. Being hypo is not a fun time. I'm probably not as bad off as you, but I can still feel your pain, it has been a long road for me too and I've still got a ways to go. I can almost definitely say at least a big part of the problem is a deficiency in one or two vitamins and minerals though, that's been my experience.

Thanks. What brand yeast do you like?

 

[Motif]

What are symptoms that show us that we are insulin resistant? How did you exactly feel that it's getting worse ?

 

[Cirion]

Thanks. What brand yeast do you like?

Anything that does not have additives is preferred, but this is what I have been using.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PJ3IPMI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[Herbie]

Ray says in his books that women become diabetic in pregnancy, more so each child they have and said its good becuase it sends the gylcogen to the baby. Would this have something in common with progesterone and insulin resistance?

 

[sweetpeat]

I wonder how much vitamin E you're getting in a large dose of Progest-E. I mention it because I've been experimenting with my blood sugar levels, seeing how diet and supplements impact it. I took 400iu vitamin E recently and had the highest fasting glucose I've ever seen since starting this experiment. It could be related to something else. I'm still sorting it out. I don't know why vitamin E would do that but I thought I'd mention it as something else to look into.