Piety made me insane. Religion is a brain-devouring cancer.

[worrywart]

Let me just add that abrasive internet debates are almost always completely fruitless. I have engaged in them myself but I can't say they're a good use of time.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to write this post. I really appreciate it.

I'm aware of Teal Swan and Ra and am warily interested in "New Age" (for lack of better terms) perspectives. You know of course that Christians regard it all as demonic. I can't quite shake off that suspicion.

I will tell you this, though: former New Agers who convert to Christianity are almost always the kindest, chillest Christians. I think they retain the whole "positive vibrations" mindset, and Christianity could really use more of that instead of all that cold, cruel puritanism.

As for your comments on eternal hell, yes, I often think about that and these are among my qualms with Christianity. All I can tell you is addressing it with mere logic is probably insufficient. We can play with syllogisms like lego bricks but we don't really know the content of all the syllogisms. God created the world knowing many would end up in hell, that is weird, yes, but why did he create the world? Why and how did he know many would choose hell? Was free will ontologically necessary? Was hell ontologically necessary so justice may be sated?

"Sadism" is certainly not it. It's more like a betrayed parent kind of thing. God loves us madly but is willing to be just if we mess up. Is what I believe. You ever read some hideous story, some "son tortures own mother to death" kind of story, and get the nagging feeling that if such acts go unpunished the universe is meaningless? Now picture an edenic world, sinless perfection, nothing but good will and humility and generosity and warmth, all animals in harmony, no predation, all humans sincerely friendly to each other.

Now picture sin entering into this world. In a capricious fit of sadism a human grabs a little mouse and squeezes it to death. In a flicker of pride a man sneers at his friend's stupid comment. Cruelty and pride infiltrate paradise. The halo of innocence that covers Creation is dimmed. The pact has been violated, the magic extinguished. This is sin. It mars beauty and innocence and kindness. Turns everything into a bleak wasteland. Hell is probably a consequence of this disposition of the soul. A geographical materialization of evil, to which those who are evilly disposed are as it were magnetically drawn.

This is easier to feel than to explain. When I pray with sincerity I get a feeling of holiness and feel a warmth/light/flame in what some people call the heart chakra region. When I masturbate (particularly if I do it to certain types of porn) I feel like I am spiritually transported to some lower realm, like the bleakness of my act saps my very surroundings of innocence, purity, joy. It feels bleak. Heaven and Hell are probably a matter of "vibrational alignment", then, to use New Age terminology.

I'm trying to walk softly here. These are your choices, and neither I nor the Creator will judge your decisions, as far as I know.

I would suggest following your feelings. Especially in regards to prayer. You clearly have a connection, and praying to God and Jesus for wisdom, love strength and help is likely to work very well for you.

Do you really need to ask external advice? What if you go into prayer for your guidance.

And I would suggest not watching porn. At least for a while since you seem quite confused atm and you have noticed a bad effect. Not that it is a sin, but it does imho damage you. Not your soul, but the human.

If you pray and relax I believe you will be guided to what is true. Trust God and Jesus, they will better guidance then anyone here. When that place that lights up in your chest during prayer lights up, you are probably doing something worth exploring.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I will tell you this, though: former New Agers who convert to Christianity are almost always the kindest, chillest Christians. I think they retain the whole "positive vibrations" mindset, and Christianity could really use more of that instead of all that cold, cruel puritanism.

My guess would be because they didn't grow up in religious environments, or if they did they rebelled against it and in so doing kept the essence (spirit) separated from the trappings in their minds.

 

[Perry Staltic]

As for your comments on eternal hell, yes, I often think about that and these are among my qualms with Christianity. All I can tell you is addressing it with mere logic is probably insufficient. We can play with syllogisms like lego bricks but we don't really know the content of all the syllogisms. God created the world knowing many would end up in hell, that is weird, yes, but why did he create the world? Why and how did he know many would choose hell? Was free will ontologically necessary? Was hell ontologically necessary so justice may be sated?

IMO this is the essence of the matter. God could have avoided the need for justice altogether by creating beings that could not sin. But what is God's purpose for creation? The play/story suggests intimate communion and marriage. How is that accomplished with a being that is not God-like, which is what man was when created, but will be infinitely more so when his redemption is complete because he now has the knowledge of good (which Adam already had) and evil ("the man has become as one of us, knowing both good and evil")? There would IMO be nothing more lonely than being married to someone who doesn't know me. If God really wanted to be known, he would have to create beings with sovereign free will as he has, otherwise they would just be robots going through the motions. And with free will comes risk of consequences. Very complex issue, or as Paul would say, "Great is the mystery"

 

[Perry Staltic]

And I would suggest not watching porn. At least for a while since you seem quite confused atm and you have noticed a bad effect. Not that it is a sin, but it does imho damage you. Not your soul, but the human.

That's what sin is: harming yourself or others. Soul is inseparable from human

 

[Perry Staltic]

"What comes to mind is seeds of personal faith being choked out by garbage." Yes. I trust your spiritual intuition here. I'm fine with 99% of Christianity but there's that 1% that drives me into scrupulosity and makes me want to abandon the whole thing. And then it feels cold and bleak and I miss the warmth of the faith.

What other things in your life with this kind of ratio would you even think of doing something so drastic? Doesn't it make more sense to abandon the scrupulosity, incrementally, of course, so you can weigh the effect/worth of each particular on your life and faith? Maybe admit that what they taught you is wrong; not the faith itself, but their Pharisaical baggage masquerading as such.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Hell is not a place, it is an event.

If it's just an event and then nothingness, why would anyone fear God?

 

[charlie]

fear God

This is another mainstream Christian bible thumper failure. Fear should have been translated to revere. Fire, damnation, and torture is a satanic doctrine. Come out of babylon. Our Father is all loving and like He said is Hosea 6:6, He does not want our burnt offerings, He wants our Love. A Great leader does not lead through fear, He leads through Respect and Reverence. Satan leads through fear.

 

[Perry Staltic]

This is another mainstream Christian bible thumper failure. Fear should have been translated to revere. Fire, damnation, and torture is a satanic doctrine. Come out of babylon. Our Father is all loving and like He said is Hosea 6:6, He does not want our burnt offerings, He wants our Love. A Great leader does not lead through fear, He leads through Respect and Reverence. Satan leads through fear.

Unquenchable fire in which the flame doesn't die and the worm dieth not is a satantic doctrine? Those are Jesus' own words

 

[charlie]

Unquenchable fire in which the flame doesn't die and the worm dieth not is a satantic doctrine? Those are Jesus' own words

Brother, you are lost and need to get with a good teacher. God is not going to torture people for Eternity. I will not argue with you over scripture and gave the tools to plow in my end times thread. I will not do the work for you, plow your own field.

Take care.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Brother, you are lost and need to get with a good teacher. God is not going to torture people for Eternity. I will not argue with you over scripture and gave the tools to plow in my end times thread. I will not do the work for you, plow your own field.

Take care.

Apart from the holy spirit, I don't need a teacher to tell me what Jesus' words mean. He said it, I believe it, that's all I can do.

 

[Perry Staltic]

And this is the promise which he promised us: everlasting life. I wrote these things to you concerning the ones leading you astray. And the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you. But as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and as he taught you, abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him, that when he is revealed we may have confidence, and not be shamed from him in his coming. 1 John 2:25-28

 

[BRMarshall]

@madman

Yes religion can be very toxic as well as endless internet debates.

Seeing this is the Ray Peat forum, and that Ray Peat was a scientist whose scientific endeavors were informed by William Blake who had some important things to say about religion and its toxicities perhaps everyone reading the thread might want to read or reread some William Blake and Ray's article

Can art instruct science? William Blake as biological visionary

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Here is an interesting article

Blake’s attack on State Religion and Encoded Authority, by Saree Makdisi

Antinomianism, Patriarchy, and De-Coding the Matrix No matter what difficulties he may have had with the Enlightenment discourse of liberty, Blake had no hesitation whatsoever in joining the radica…

thehumandivine.org

Note that Aleister Crowley, himself abused by Chiristian fundamentalist parents, was informed by Blake and that besides the religion Crowley created, that its moral injunction of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" is found in St. Augustine's "Love God and Do what thou wilt"....
IT should be noted that at the heart of Rudolph Steiner's work was his Phd. thesis "The Philosophy of Freedom" which situated a means of working situating individual freedom upon an epistimology that opens the door for appreciating and exercising moral intuition, as freedom is so situated, separate from "thou shalts" that then can become the basis for enslavement and/or neurosis....

Of course the Jesus himself represented through teaching through parables a means of breaking our of moral armoring....which also makes me think that Willhelm Reich's The Murder of Christ would be important reading in looking at what Reich called the trap, man's own conceptions in perversion due to perceptional abilities hindered by armoring against life energy, the pulsation of our bodies....

 

[Nebula]

Anyway my scrupulosity has grown byzantine. It's grown so bad I want to kill myself. I feel guilty for everything but I know my guilt is ridiculous. I feel guilty for pirating

Howdy friend, I went though all this myself throughout my teens until I lost my particular religious worldview in my early 20's, which was Mormonism. And yes the scrupulosity was absolutely miserable during my teen years. Strangely it seemed the majority of people I knew didn't experience religion and spirituality this way despite having the same religious worldview. Well for whatever reason it wasn't working for me and it led to me losing all my religious beliefs involuntarily and abruptly which was very traumatic. I suppose some of us just aren't compatible with the linguistic effects of some aspects of a more insulated culture. We take it very sincerely to heart in ways that other people typically don’t. I think we can see it as a gift and find a positive use for our natures.

Looking back I think it would have been best for me to focus on making new positive friendships, hobbies, and experiences during this time. Inside your current social and probably especially outside it. You may feel a natural desire to push away the people already in your life and you may have to do that to some degree as you give room for your mind to expand, but I think it’s also possible to strengthen your current relationships as well. Being honest with them about your thinking and feeling and finding new ways to share positive things with each other that feel meaningful.

I also think it’s very helpful when dealing with an existential crisis to spend a lot of time saturated into nature. Sometimes I would spend all day and night in a nearby nature reserve when I was recovering from my abrupt existential dread. I slept outside almost every night one summer. Under a wild apple tree in the reserve or on this ridge above the creek where I’d waken to bucks stand over me watching in the moonlight. A summer where I just let myself soak in natural beauty. I think it helped lay a new foundation for my mind. One where I saw my thoughts as part of a beautiful ecosystem like the nature reserve was. Not seeing my thoughts as threats. The harsh unreasonable rules I had running through my head from the way I had experienced religion.

Overall I am very grateful for the religious chapter of my earlier life now although it didn’t work out as a lifelong carrier of my mind and soul. I now hold no or at least few intense bad feelings towards the religion I was raised in and the people I experienced it with. Some have only become closer and deeper friends since, including my parents who are still very religious. We have a stronger connection I never would have thought possible when I was going through the darkest days of my implosion of my worldview where it was very easy to feel intense rage and hatred towards them. That storm has passed and I’m very grateful for my parents now and love them and old religious friends just the way they are.

This may be the beginning of a beautiful journey beyond your current comprehension. I’m glad you felt comfortable to open up with us here about it. It may lead you to creating a new healthier relationship to your current religion or another worldview altogether.

 

[OccamzRazer]

Apart from the holy spirit, I don't need a teacher to tell me what Jesus' words mean. He said it, I believe it, that's all I can do.

But...didn't pastors and churches teach you how to interpret Jesus' words on this subject?

 

[Perry Staltic]

But...didn't pastors and churches teach you how to interpret Jesus' words on this subject?

No. I did learn things from a friend at the beginning, some of it good, some of it bad. Besides the bible I did read a few books and commentaries on hard matters, and still do so. I have actually learned a tremendous amount by watching other peoples' mistakes

 

[sleepson]

This is another mainstream Christian bible thumper failure. Fear should have been translated to revere. Fire, damnation, and torture is a satanic doctrine. Come out of babylon. Our Father is all loving and like He said is Hosea 6:6, He does not want our burnt offerings, He wants our Love. A Great leader does not lead through fear, He leads through Respect and Reverence. Satan leads through fear.

(Deut 6:2) That thou mightest fear the Lord thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
(Psalm 22:23) Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
(Psalm 33:18) Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy
(Prov 1:7) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The scriptures (2 Tim 3:16-17) are filled with references to the fear of the Lord. Did Isaiah fear or revere the Lord when he was brought into his presence in his vision?

(Isa 6:1-5)
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

(Psalm 103:17) But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

 

[sleepson]

(Malachi 3:16-18) Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

 

[charlie]

(Deut 6:2) That thou mightest fear the Lord thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
(Psalm 22:23) Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
(Psalm 33:18) Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy
(Prov 1:7) The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The scriptures (2 Tim 3:16-17) are filled with references to the fear of the Lord. Did Isaiah fear or revere the Lord when he was brought into his presence in his vision?

(Isa 6:1-5)
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

(Psalm 103:17) But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Pray for the scales to fall off your eyes. Look at the scriptures you posted, it goes from fear to praise, fear to worship, fear to righteousness. Does that even make sense? Change fear to revere and then Praise God for showing you the Truth of how Loving and Amazing He is.

revere - to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor

 

[sleepson]

Pray for the scales to come off your eyes. Look at the scriptures you posted, it goes from fear to praise, fear to worship, fear to righteousness. Does that even make sense? Change fear to revere and then Praise God for showing you the Truth of how Loving and Amazing He is.

revere - to show devoted deferential honor to : regard as worthy of great honor

By God’s grace, Who has blessed by removing my heart of stone and giving me a heart of flesh that now beats for him, who I once despised in word, thought, deed, and desire, he has brought me by his providence into a faithful congregation of believers sit under faithful preaching of the whole counsel of God, where his people worship in spirit and in truth (John 4:23, Heb 10:25), by his grace alone - without which we could in no wise honor him in the slightest. It is the greatest privilege to be brought into the fold of the Good Shepherd, to worship him with his people, singing hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs, to be nourished and strengthened for the Christian life through the ordinary means of grace (preaching of the word, the lords supper, and baptism). Fear for him leads his people to worship, fear for him, in reverence rather than solely in terror, is only made possible by his spirit, and we are only made righteous by the work of Christ and faith in him given us by the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you that the fear of the Lord results in these very things, but to those who are without, who have not yet tasted of his goodness, who have not been convicted of their sins and regenerated by the Holy Spirit ought to fear him for that reason that our Lord gives in Mat 10:28.

Regarding church discipline (Mat 18:15-17), those who are within the visible church that repent not of their heinous sins are to be cast out and treated as a heathen, as an outsider - this being better for them than to think themselves belonging to Christ and yet like unto them that say Lord, Lord (Mat 7:21-23).

(Mat 18:15-17)
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

(Mat 7:21-23)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I certainly understand your concern for the misunderstanding of the fear of the Lord, and there are doubtless many examples of this being taught in a way that is not in continuity with the scriptures, yet at the same time, even as our Lord’s brother says:

(Jude 20-23)
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Not seeking by any means to be hostile or high minded but to clarify and work together with the brethren to understand the great truths of Almighty God!