My Contribution To The Forum

mrchibbs

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2017
Messages
2,374
Location
Atlantis
@RealNeat

Look, I don't say these things just to be a jerk. I debated whether to reply to you, because I don't go out looking for animosity. In the end, I shared my honest opinion, without malicious intent. I don't want to cause physical harm to anyone, but I do believe Islam is a destructive ideology.

Clearly, you are a believer, and by definition, if I'm critical of Islam, according to you it's gonna be because I don't understand it properly. It's always the same rhetoric, i.e. it has nothing to do with Islam, you don't understand the context, here go watch this video of this muslim apologist.

But I can assure you, I've done my homework on this topic. I know Shabir Ally very well, and I've watched a lot of his videos. He's an apologist for his faith and in that regard, he does his best. I'll give him full marks for being outwardly respectful and gentle in his demeanor. He's much better in that regard than modern "Dawah" guys like Mohammed Hijab.

But I still think it's preposterous to argue that Islam brings anything good to the world.

Let's take this week for example, there's a big scandal in Pakistan because (another) 13 year old Christian girl was kidnapped, raped and forcefully converted to Islam. Within a few days she was married to her new 44 y.old "husband".

Her family appealed to the court, and despite protests, the Islamic courts upheld the marriage because the "husband" claimed she converted of her own free will. She was visibly upset as the "husband" restrained her physically in court. Her parents were crying, and there was nothing they could do about it. This happens because according to their interpretation of Islamic Law, it's perfectly fine. This is a recurrent situation in Pakistan, supported by the institutions.

My first language is french (although I am not from France). Therefore I was able to dig deep into the Samuel Paty incident and read the first hand accounts of the situation. We're not talking of a few Muslims being naughty here, but rather, widespread (if sometimes tacit) support and celebration of this murder among the muslims of France, whether from the students at the school after the murder, or in the social media comments, so many (and I mince my words) rejoiced at this murder.

And it's not difficult to understand why when you read the core texts of the faith. It might sound ludicrous to you right now, but growing up with tons of muslim friends from early childhood, I was actually very open and receptive to the religion of Islam. A decade ago, I remember reading the autobiography of Malcolm X, and that led me to the Qu'ran, which I first read then, as a teenager. (I have it on my Kindle right now)

Since then I've watched documentaries, read books, had many discussions with my muslim friends, and I've read a lot of the Hadiths and Islamic texts. It's been a source of interest to me, along with the other religions.

It's been a slow process but over time as I learned about the details of the life the "prophet", and Islamic theology, I became more and more appalled and turned off. I am prepared to defend every single claim I made about the so-called messenger of Allah, with multiple sources for my claims. Don't assume I'm ignorant about Islam simply because I'm critical of it.

According to you, I am arrogant, juvenile and I lack knowledge of Islam. And now with this book you're preparing you will "refute" my claims. I've heard this tune before, but ok I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately, I believe my perception of Islam to be accurate. Nonetheless, I remain open to new ideas, and I will gladly read your book whenever it's ready, because I don't dismiss the value of your opinion even if we have a fundamental disagreement.
 

RealNeat

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
844
Location
Minnesota
@RealNeat

Look, I don't say these things just to be a jerk. I debated whether to reply to you, because I don't go out looking for animosity. In the end, I shared my honest opinion, without malicious intent. I don't want to cause physical harm to anyone, but I do believe Islam is a destructive ideology.

Clearly, you are a believer, and by definition, if I'm critical of Islam, according to you it's gonna be because I don't understand it properly. It's always the same rhetoric, i.e. it has nothing to do with Islam, you don't understand the context, here go watch this video of this muslim apologist.

But I can assure you, I've done my homework on this topic. I know Shabir Ally very well, and I've watched a lot of his videos. He's an apologist for his faith and in that regard, he does his best. I'll give him full marks for being outwardly respectful and gentle in his demeanor. He's much better in that regard than modern "Dawah" guys like Mohammed Hijab.

But I still think it's preposterous to argue that Islam brings anything good to the world.

Let's take this week for example, there's a big scandal in Pakistan because (another) 13 year old Christian girl was kidnapped, raped and forcefully converted to Islam. Within a few days she was married to her new 44 y.old "husband".

Her family appealed to the court, and despite protests, the Islamic courts upheld the marriage because the "husband" claimed she converted of her own free will. She was visibly upset as the "husband" restrained her physically in court. Her parents were crying, and there was nothing they could do about it. This happens because according to their interpretation of Islamic Law, it's perfectly fine. This is a recurrent situation in Pakistan, supported by the institutions.

My first language is french (although I am not from France). Therefore I was able to dig deep into the Samuel Paty incident and read the first hand accounts of the situation. We're not talking of a few Muslims being naughty here, but rather, widespread (if sometimes tacit) support and celebration of this murder among the muslims of France, whether from the students at the school after the murder, or in the social media comments, so many (and I mince my words) rejoiced at this murder.

And it's not difficult to understand why when you read the core texts of the faith. It might sound ludicrous to you right now, but growing up with tons of muslim friends from early childhood, I was actually very open and receptive to the religion of Islam. A decade ago, I remember reading the autobiography of Malcolm X, and that led me to the Qu'ran, which I first read then, as a teenager. (I have it on my Kindle right now)

Since then I've watched documentaries, read books, had many discussions with my muslim friends, and I've read a lot of the Hadiths and Islamic texts. It's been a source of interest to me, along with the other religions.

It's been a slow process but over time as I learned about the details of the life the "prophet", and Islamic theology, I became more and more appalled and turned off. I am prepared to defend every single claim I made about the so-called messenger of Allah, with multiple sources for my claims. Don't assume I'm ignorant about Islam simply because I'm critical of it.

According to you, I am arrogant, juvenile and I lack knowledge of Islam. And now with this book you're preparing you will "refute" my claims. I've heard this tune before, but ok I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Ultimately, I believe my perception of Islam to be accurate. Nonetheless, I remain open to new ideas, and I will gladly read your book whenever it's ready, because I don't dismiss the value of your opinion even if we have a fundamental disagreement.

Ive debated Islam (and nutrition) online for about 10 years now, and because it took so much of my time I've backed away from it. any confidence you have in your perception is greatly excelled by my education in the matter. I'm not being cocky, but rather your Pakistan statement goes to show how little you actually understand Islam and I'm not talking about people's interpretations, I'm talking majority consensus based on the one and only Quran and authentic non Quran contradicting Hadith. Find me legitimate (Quran and authentic Hadith) sources in context to justify that action (in Pakistan) and we can go from there. Is this not what you do for Ray Peat too? Same thing. This is why I write articles, make podcasts and things of that sort instead of debate trolls online. I want people like you to be able to find them without digging in some Internet forum.
 

mrchibbs

Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2017
Messages
2,374
Location
Atlantis
Ive debated Islam (and nutrition) online for about 10 years now, and because it took so much of my time I've backed away from it. any confidence you have in your perception is greatly excelled by my education in the matter. I'm not being cocky, but rather your Pakistan statement goes to show how little you actually understand Islam and I'm not talking about people's interpretations, I'm talking majority consensus based on the one and only Quran and authentic non Quran contradicting Hadith. Find me legitimate (Quran and authentic Hadith) sources in context to justify that action (in Pakistan) and we can go from there. Is this not what you do for Ray Peat too? Same thing. This is why I write articles, make podcasts and things of that sort instead of debate trolls online. I want people like you to be able to find them without digging in some Internet forum.

Lol, ok. I think we'll leave it at that. Again you brashly assume I know nothing and you're demeaning my position merely because I am critical of Islam. Isn't that the exact definition of cockiness? In my comment, I remained open to reading your book, and did not proclaim myself to be above anybody else. I provided examples (i.e. Pakistan and France), which again, are brushed away as inconsequential or rather, not related to the 'true' Islam of the ''majority consensus''. This is the go-to excuse I've heard countless times.

To me these types of actions (in France and Pakistan) are exactly representative of Islam, as they mirror the life of the ''prophet'', who is seen as the most honorable man and a ''beautiful example of conduct'' by the faithfuls of the Islamic faith. Considering all of the (Sahih) characteristics I used to describe Muhammad, it's no wonder Islam becomes a vector for these vile and depraved acts.

If you want, we can have a private discussion on this, but I don't think RPF is the place for where this discussion would take us, especially considering the rather disgusting and explicit nature of the hadiths I could cite. I know how this will go, you'll tell me I don't understand the context, or that some modern scholars have a better understanding of Muhammad than the sources who actually knew Muhammad, or that I am a troll/ignorant etc.
 
Last edited:

Freedom99

Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2021
Messages
54
If you believe in God's eternal love. YOU ARE A COMMUNIST.
The radical left don't have politics anymore. BUT THEY HAVE CHRISTIAN LIBERALISM. And spreading around the money always means god's love.


Bullsh*it !

This has to be a joke, or some crazy desinformation.. Please people, go learn a little bit of REAL history.

The fact is, the very opposite is true, Bolsheviks always persecuted Christians. Bolsheviks/Communists always hated and exterminated Christians. Communists/Bolsheviks exterminated countless Russian Christians. Communists killed some 60 million Russians. 20 million Ukrainians. The communists in China killed another 45 million people. but nobody talks about it, you are not allowed to. And we still see idiots/useful idiots around propagating marxist/socialist/communist ideology. unacceptable.
 
Last edited:

Perry Staltic

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2020
Messages
697
What dietary choices are forbidden in your beliefsystem?

I can't speak for OP's beliefs, but Jesus clearly stated that nothing a person puts into the body defiles it (ie, makes a person unclean in God's sight). No food is forbidden if it is eaten in faith.
 
Last edited:

Cloudhands

Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2019
Messages
383
I think any abstract concept such as religion is kind of like a gun. Religion doesnt kill people: people kill people. Every religion has had destructive followers, and every religion has had altruistic followers. Criticizing people based on their religion isnt cool in my opinion, religion is abstract, and at the end of the day we can always find reasons to criticize others, or we can find reasons to love eachother and be friends. Im agnostic, im spiritual, and the basic philosophy i think everyone should follow is to not be an ***hole.
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2019
Messages
307
I think any abstract concept such as religion is kind of like a gun. Religion doesnt kill people: people kill people. Every religion has had destructive followers, and every religion has had altruistic followers. Criticizing people based on their religion isnt cool in my opinion, religion is abstract, and at the end of the day we can always find reasons to criticize others, or we can find reasons to love eachother and be friends. Im agnostic, im spiritual, and the basic philosophy i think everyone should follow is to not be an ***hole.

Is it abstract though?

Neil Degrasse Tyson speaking on the Apophis (Wormwood) asteroid in 2008 (7m 4s):


An article regarding the asteroid:

"Apophis" is the name of an egyptian serpent god who opposes the sun god, Ra. Interestingly, one of the titles of Jesus Christ is the "Sun of righteousness" (see Malachi 4:2 below)


[Old Testament]
Jeremiah 9:10-16
[10] For the mountains will I take up a weeping and wailing, and for the habitations of the wilderness a lamentation, because they are burned up, so that none can pass through them; neither can men hear the voice of the cattle; both the fowl of the heavens and the beast are fled; they are gone.
[11] And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.
[12] Who is the wise man, that may understand this? and who is he to whom the mouth of the LORD hath spoken, that he may declare it, for what the land perisheth and is burned up like a wilderness, that none passeth through?
[13] And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;
[14] But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:
[15] Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink.
[16] I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.

[New Testament]
Revelation 8:7-11
[7] The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
[8] And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
[9] And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
[10] And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
[11] And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Malachi 4:1-2
[1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
[2] But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
 
Last edited:

Cloudhands

Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2019
Messages
383
Is it abstract though?

Neil Degrasse Tyson speaking on the Apophis (Wormwood) asteroid in 2008 (7m 4s):


An article regarding the asteroid:

"Apophis" is the name of an egyptian serpent god who opposes the sun god, Ra. Interestingly, one of the titles of Jesus Christ is the "Sun of righteousness" (see Malachi 4:2 below)


[Old Testament]
Jeremiah 9:10-16
[10] For the mountains will I take up a weeping and wailing, and for the habitations of the wilderness a lamentation, because they are burned up, so that none can pass through them; neither can men hear the voice of the cattle; both the fowl of the heavens and the beast are fled; they are gone.
[11] And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.
[12] Who is the wise man, that may understand this? and who is he to whom the mouth of the LORD hath spoken, that he may declare it, for what the land perisheth and is burned up like a wilderness, that none passeth through?
[13] And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;
[14] But have walked after the imagination of their own heart, and after Baalim, which their fathers taught them:
[15] Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink.
[16] I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.

[New Testament]
Revelation 8:7-11
[7] The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
[8] And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
[9] And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
[10] And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
[11] And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Malachi 4:1-2
[1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
[2] But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Theres absolutely lots of historical evidence included in many religious beliefs, but what makes religion different than history is the different beliefs, rituals, rules, practices etc. Its very cultural, traditional etc. Its ambiguous and abstract in the sense that if you try to define it, youll always be wrong to some degree, and even people within religions disagree with which methods are most correctly practiced within a religion. My take away is that in any group, institution, culture, tribe, religion, sect, etc. you can always look past differences, or choose to focus on them. I think that im happier when i choose to be friends with people, and im sure most humans would be happier if they didnt hate on others for their different beliefs or faiths etc. I was raised ashkenazi jewish, and even checked out chassidism when i was younger, decided religion wasnt for me, i practice it during holidays as a way to bond with my family, but otherwise personally, things like knowing about meteors and floods, and fear of god etc arent very practical or pragmatic while im trying to enjoy my life, but i still respect other peoples faith and dont think theyre wrong for it.
 

meatbag

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
1,128
Islam is a 6th century fabrication by Balkan Oligarchs. A heretical Christian cult was elevated to the current status. Very little evidence exists to support the existence of Mohamed as a historical character. The philosophical basis of Islam is Aristotle.

Excellent resources: The Orthodox Nationalist: Islam, the Jews and the Balkan Oligarchs – TON 082119

Amazon product.

Amazon product
That's interesting, I have read before that islam incorporates a lot Aristotelian concepts.
I read some ideas that the Old Testament was heavily influenced by Plato, who was educated by an Egyptian Horite priest when he was educated there.
Russel Gmirkin(Russell Gmirkin - Wikipedia), whose father () was the white russian CIA agent who ensured the US acquired night vision technology from Germany, has written a lot about it;
 

meatbag

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
1,128
Thank you for your invitation to something besides materialism and the worship of "science" and the neo-Darwinist digital frontier.

Ray and I talk about, morality, the analog world vs digital and a higher power in my newest interview. It'll be published on the Primitive Initiative Podcast in about a month.

also Yerba mate is one of my favorites, I love the ritual of making it.

and no I'm not Christian
Would you mind expading on what you mean by materialism? I think recently Peat had mentioned how digital culture is built on essentialism and the ideas of emmanuel kant and people also seem to equate market culture and capitalism or even just consumerism as being materialism, it seems like the term is used to stand for a lot of different things
 

Perry Staltic

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2020
Messages
697
That's interesting, I have read before that islam incorporates a lot Aristotelian concepts.
I read some ideas that the Old Testament was heavily influenced by Plato, who was educated by an Egyptian Horite priest when he was educated there.
Russel Gmirkin(Russell Gmirkin - Wikipedia), whose father () was the white russian CIA agent who ensured the US acquired night vision technology from Germany, has written a lot about it;

Too long to watch, but he has it wrong. The authors of the old testament were not influenced by Plato. The gnostics who came after them were, though.
 

meatbag

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
1,128
Too long to watch, but he has it wrong. The authors of the old testament were not influenced by Plato. The gnostics who came after them were, though.
Who wrote the old testament?
 

meatbag

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
1,128
Joined
Apr 22, 2019
Messages
307
What is the evidence that men living before plato wrote the old testament?
Titus 3:8-11
[8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
 

meatbag

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
1,128
Joined
Apr 22, 2019
Messages
307
[New Testament]
2 Timothy 3:1-7
[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[6] For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[7] Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[Old Testament]
Daniel 12:4
[4] But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
 
Last edited:
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
haidut In Most Cases, Genes Have Less Than 5% Contribution To Disease Risk Scientific Studies 4
Amazoniac Gut Microbiota And B-vitamins: An Estimation Of Its Contribution To Daily Intakes Vitamins 1
Edward Energy Contribution of Octanoate to Intact Rat Brain Metabol Articles & Scientific Studies 0
Brandin Poll: hopefully disproving my mom in her theory that This forum is a bunch of Nazis... Polls 63
P forum suggestion - diet list accessible by hovering mouse over users Suggestions, Complaints, Board Glitches 12
M Is Anyone From The Forum From Germany Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 0
Inaut Something Different For The Forum Miscellaneous 4
B Almost Everyone On This Forum Is Highly Misinformed Health 49
A Some Dude Sounding High IQ Talking About Looksmaxxing On An Incel Forum Ask For Help or Advice 72
S What's Up With Raising Body Temperature In This Forum? Thyroid and Hormones 5
J New To The Forum. Been Doing A Experiement Here Recently Experiments 15
S Google Is Censoring This Forum Miscellaneous 42
A Balding Chad Finds Ray Peat Forum Hair & Nails 24
I Anti-Peat The Overwhelming Majority Of This Forum Is Depressed Debate - Anti-Peat 64
A Guys Should We Rename This Forum To The Marylin Monroe Forum? Rant or Rave 18
Mark2020 New To The Forum, But Not New To Peat - My 8 Years On This Journey Discussing Dietary Models 32
B You Have No Idea How Glad I Am To Have Found This Forum K 10
Lenny Need Help Taking DHEA/PREG And Searching This Forum! Ask For Help or Advice 16
yerrag Who Is This Woman? Ray Peat Forum Member? Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 0
B Why Is This Forum Still So Obsessed With Studies Autism 51
C New To Forum Hair & Nails 3
jzeno Thank You Ray Peat And Danny Roddy And This Forum: Just Recorded All New Record High Body Temp. 99F Testimonials 15
Pulstar Current Forum Frame Size And Color At 100% Zoom Level Suggestions, Complaints, Board Glitches 3
jamies33 Frustrated With Medicine, Doctors - Where To Get Good Health Advice Outside Of This Forum? Natural Dessicated Thyroid 14
Aaron Hey! This Forum Full Of Geniuses Has Helped Deliver Me From Sad Cripple To Super Saiyan Meet & Greet 51
N New To Forum - Struggle With Hormone Imbalance But Suspecting Lifelong Serotonin See Saw Ask For Help or Advice 17
indeterminacy Why Do You Think MDMA Clears My Skin And Makes It "glow" (+ My [re]introduction To The Forum) Mental Issues 0
AretnaP This Forum Needs A Red Theme Red Light, Infrared, LLLT 0
healthnatura Minimal Presence On This Forum Health Natura 31
S What Is The Final Verdict On LDN On The Forum? Cholesterol 26
Danni Q Young Triple Positive Breast Cancer New To Forum Meet & Greet 26
raypeatclips This Forum Being Unresponsive For Anyone Else? Suggestions, Complaints, Board Glitches 7
charlie Announcement Introducing The New Ray Peat Forum Search Engine! Ray Peat Forum Announcements 35
ddjd Android App For Ray Peat Forum? The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 1
Milena Has The Redlightman Discount For Forum Members Ended? Red Light, Infrared, LLLT 11
W Forum Website Down So Often! The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 0
theman55 Newbie, Looking For A Good Forum To Be Social/learn All I Can Meet & Greet 2
S Forum Bugging Me About Avatar Suggestions, Complaints, Board Glitches 7
johnwester130 When Did This Forum Start Complaining About The PUFA In Coconut Oil ? Coconut Oil 36
natedawggh Politics In The Ray Peat Forum And Retaliation Rant or Rave 16
whodathunkit I'm Getting A Message From All Browsers About Forum's Security Certificate Suggestions, Complaints, Board Glitches 16
Maretch New To The Forum And Have Questions Diet 14
Elchapchapchapo New To Forum. Looking For Direction Ask For Help or Advice 6
MB50 Ray Peat Forum Video Discussion? Ask For Help or Advice 10
ecstatichamster Great Idea Having This New Forum Experiments 5
S [Suggestion] Private Forum Suggestions, Complaints, Board Glitches 12
charlie How To Use Forum Software Ray Peat Forum Announcements 18
charlie Important Announcement Regarding Forum Software Change, Please Read! Ray Peat Forum Announcements 48
E New to forum - Are there peaterians with successful pregnancy stories? Female Issues 6
K New to the forum and need lots of input!!! Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 10

Similar threads

Top