Low Progesterone Drives The Conception Of Twin (or More) Babies

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    I have always wondered about what causes some people to have twins (e.g. twinning), and why fertility treatments for women often result in much higher chance of twinning or even higher number of babies. While the "unassisted" conception of twins is usually explained away as being genetically driven, the reason why female fertility treatments dramatically increase chance of having more than one baby is currently labelled as "unknown". I have long suspected that the synthetic estrogen clomiphene and the hormone GNRH and hCG (all of which are commonly used in female fertility treatments) are somehow involved. The reason this is important is that while parents may be quite happy to have 2 or more babies after years of infertility, conceiving more than 1 baby is actually considered not a pathological sign by some doctors, and results in much higher risks of chronic disease for both the offsprings and the mother.
    This article below shows that, at least in cows, low progesterone is the driving factor behind twinning. While in cows apparently the cause of low progesterone is excessive food consumption, the article hints that other interventions like prostaglandins and estrogen treatments (Ovsynch) have the same effect. That is not surprising as both prostaglandins and estrogens lower progesterone synthesis.

    https://www.dairyherd.com/article/twinning-increases-high-production
    "...While there may be a genetic predilection for twinning in the Holstein breed, most of the problem has to do with low progesterone levels at the time of ovulation. And that is being driven by the high rate of feed intake high producing cows need to sustain stratospheric levels of milk production. High producing cows will eat well over 50 lb of dry matter per day, and well over 100 lb of feed on an as-fed basis. These high rates of feed intake increase blood flow through the liver, which in turn reduces the amount of progesterone circulating in the blood. Low progesterone, in turn, results in higher rates of double ovulation. Double ovulation does result in higher conception rates, but also more pregnancy losses – and more twins. “It’s all about progesterone,” says Fricke. “It’s like you turn on a switch.” At about 40 kilograms of milk production (88 lb), about 25% of cows double ovulate. At 50 kg of milk production (110 lb), more than half of cows will double ovulate."
     
  2. Tenacity

    Tenacity Member

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    Anecdotal, of course, but my aunt had twins and they both suffer from serious chronic health problems.
     
  3. lampofred

    lampofred Member

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    So eating more reduces progesterone? Or is it something in the feed that is reducing progesterone?
     
  4. pimpnamedraypeat

    pimpnamedraypeat Member

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    Central African woman have the highest rate of twinning and presumably the highest estrogen to progesterone ratio
     
  5. Tenacity

    Tenacity Member

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    Given the correlation between progesterone and intelligence, it should give anyone who believes in 'genetic/racial IQ' a moment to pause.
     
  6. lvysaur

    lvysaur Member

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    Was waiting for someone to mention this.

    African women (highest estrogen) have the most twins, and Asian women (lowest estrogen) have the fewest twins, with west Eurasians in the middle for both twinning rates and estrogen levels.
     
  7. Energizer

    Energizer Member

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    What's your source?
     
  8. pimpnamedraypeat

    pimpnamedraypeat Member

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    If African women have the lowest prenatal progesterone and highest prenatal estrogen levels, and evidence shows that they do, then this would go far in explaining IQ and behavior differences. But the predilection to produce those hormones is at least partly genetic.

    The lowest twinning rate is in Japan and I would wager Japanese women have the highest progesterone levels. They tend to be monogamous and into pair-bonding, especially compared to Nigerian yoruba women who have the highest rate of twinning and are usually dating multiple men at once. A durex survery showed that they were the least monogamous women in the world.

    In my opinion the high E/low P of yoruba women leads to higher sex drive with less pair-bonding which leads to more children with lower parental investment. High P/low E has the opposite effect.

    You can see the results of this and other behavioral patterns in the state of the respective countries.
     
  9. Tenacity

    Tenacity Member

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    It might be, the question is, how large a 'part' does that 'partly' play? The radical right and genetic determinists would suggest near 0%, which clearly isn't true.

    Even a cursory case study glance at demographics reveals the 'IQ and race' idea isn't as cracked up as some would have you believe. Take Singapore for example, average IQ of 108, and a population made up of 74% racially Chinese, 13.3% racially Malaysian, 9.1% racially Indian, and 3.3% Other. China has an average IQ of 104, Malaysia has an average IQ of 93, and India has an average IQ of 81. If race or genetics were the prime determinant of IQ, we would expect China to have a higher national IQ than Singapore, owing to the fact that there are more Chinese people in China (91% of the Chinese population is racially Chinese), and fewer Malaysian and Indian people, who have an average IQ lower than China. Yet that's not what the statistics or demographics reveal. Environmental factors take precedence.
     
  10. michael94

    michael94 Member

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    What is your forum avatar from?
     
  11. pimpnamedraypeat

    pimpnamedraypeat Member

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    I think that's a case of selection bias where the smartest asians move to singapore since it's a financial and business center.

    I think high E/low P is the hormonal framework for a mating strategy akin to the famous r/K. Nigerians being on one end and Japanese on the other. It is not racial so much as it is a reproductive strategy leading to an arms race leading to an exaggeration of traits. Nigerians tend to mate early and often while a significant number of Japanese remain virgins into their 20s and 30s. Nigerians are very dimorphic with the women having larg breasts and buttocks and the men large penii. Nigerians alao tend to be very loud and flashy while Japanese are quiet and humble. But I have seen low-dimorphism, high pair-ponding, high parental investment Nigerians and I have seen highly dimorphic, extroverted, unmonogamous japanese...it's incredible how the traits correlate...after all they are organized by the same hormones and epigenetics.
    It was only in the west that you could be reproductively successful using either strategy but that is quickly changing .

    If you look at it from a selfish gene point of view then the r strategy is winning and winning hard. The japanese have an underpopulation problem while the nogerians have an overpopulation problem. Even though the average quality of life in Nigeria is not something is very bad, genes don't care about GDP or happiness or even health. Genes, and consequently their carriers, tend to be short sighted. They only care about reproducing.

    To cut things short: It's not a stretch to say that doping the African water table with progesterone would increase the quality of life better than any food aid.

    :rightagain2
     
  12. lvysaur

    lvysaur Member

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    The west as in the Middle East (including Europe), yes. Likely the south too (India).
     
  13. Lilac

    Lilac Member

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    The mainstream media would never even hint that multiple births are not optimal for health. And I bet most "educated" people do not know the dangers of multiple births--partly because the media will not discuss this.

    There were so many sets of twins born in my office in the past 10 years. During my time in grammar school (50 years ago), I don't remember any twins in my classes or even grades. My older sister had a set of identical twins in her class, and they were noteworthy.

    And even though I am interested in this topic, I learned something new here--that the mother has an increased risk of chronic disease. That seems obvious now that it has been pointed out. I read once that boy-girl twins present the biggest health risk for the babies, as the hormones are not compatible.
     
  14. Energizer

    Energizer Member

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    Read Ray's articles on intelligence, he addresses IQ testing, and how it has been used to discriminate against immigrants originally and questioned their meaningfulness. He also talks about the scientific climate and how hundreds of Nazi's that were alive and part of engineering "The Final Solution" during the Holocaust still contribute to the scientific environment (he commonly mentions Konrad Lorenz as an example).

    The word genetics itself has been a re-branding from eugenics after the embarrassment of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany and elsewhere. In interviews he has also addressed "The Bell Curve" and called Charles Murray a "real idiot at Harvard." All of the speculation and vague generalizations about race mean nothing because they're just assumptions. Those of you who still believe in genetic determinism, I also recommend checking out Mind and Tissue, the entire book is a rebuke of genetic determinism.
     
  15. pimpnamedraypeat

    pimpnamedraypeat Member

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    I was talking about the west as is commonly referred to. Not the middle east or India.
     
  16. EndAllDisease

    EndAllDisease Member

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    Man that is fascinating. So in theory, twins may be less healthy than a non-twin human being.
     
  17. lvysaur

    lvysaur Member

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    I would expect such strategies to have been successful in those locations as well
     
  18. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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    This is such a coincendence I just found out a friend is having twins and then came over here and saw the headline. She is in fact older. She has three kids already youngest is like 7or 8. My Grandma had twins somewhere towards the end of 9 children! She was likely extremely stressed! And has dealt with mental issues for yrs. Had lots of heart attacks. But is still alive in her 80s no idea how.
     
  19. ImprovingDaily

    ImprovingDaily Member

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    Related question for you Haidut and to others who may know. What's involved in people who have lots of boys, or nothing but girls?

    One of my best friends has 4 kids and they're all boys, from 2 different women. I'm curious if that's pure luck or something else going on hormonally.
     
  20. Aymen

    Aymen Member

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    nice , i have always wanted to figure it out ..
    there is a family where i live where they have 7 daughters ( 18-30 ) years old , they look similar in face and their voice is almost similar too , some are brunes , some are blondes so i just want to figure out what is the cause ?
     
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