Iodine And Lipid Peroxidation

[himsahimsa]

Dr. Pete:
Thank you for all the information and thoughts you have posted.

You have emphasized the cascading estrogenic effect of peroxidized multiply unsaturated fatty acids (at least if I understand correctly). Several writers, Dr. Brownstein, Dr. Abraham, and Dr. Fletchas claim that provision of sufficient iodine in the diet causes remission of fibroid conditions in the breast and the uterus but don't really say anything about a mechanism. They also claim that iodine prevents peroxidation (by conjugation) of unsaturated fatty acids. And. Indigenous peoples of the far north, at least those that adhere to a traditional diet, consume large amounts of long chain unsaturated fatty acids but don't die at a high rate from conditions that would suggest estrogenic poisoning (but I don't really know that is so). Because of that diet they also probably consume large amounts of iodine. Would you comment on this?

Another, probably unrelated, question; why is the dopaminergic black stuff black?

Thanks

 

[4peatssake]

Dr. Pete:
Thank you for all the information and thoughts you have posted.

You have emphasized the cascading estrogenic effect of peroxidized multiply unsaturated fatty acids (at least if I understand correctly). Several writers, Dr. Brownstein, Dr. Abraham, and Dr. Fletchas claim that provision of sufficient iodine in the diet causes remission of fibroid conditions in the breast and the uterus but don't really say anything about a mechanism. They also claim that iodine prevents peroxidation (by conjugation) of unsaturated fatty acids. And. Indigenous peoples of the far north, at least those that adhere to a traditional diet, consume large amounts of long chain unsaturated fatty acids but don't die at a high rate from conditions that would suggest estrogenic poisoning (but I don't really know that is so). Because of that diet they also probably consume large amounts of iodine. Would you comment on this?

Another, probably unrelated, question; why is the dopaminergic black stuff black?

Thanks

Welcome to the forum himsahimsa.

To let you know, Ray Peat doesn't post or participant in this forum. Rather this is a community of people who discuss his work and apply his research findings to their lives.

 

[himsahimsa]

I figured as much, but there doesn't seem to be any direct contact method so I dropped it here anyway.

 

[SaltGirl]

Hypothetically a higher load of PUFA in the tissues will cause a greater need for iodine since PUFA tends to have a higher iodine value than saturated fats.

 

[Mittir]

Here is a RP interview on iodine with Lita Lee

The Myth of Iodine Deficiency: An Interview with Dr. Ray Peat

Is iodine supplementation safe and, if not, is there a safe amount of supplemental iodine?

Dr. Peat: “A dosage of 150 mcg (micrograms, not milligrams, e.g., ug not mg) is a safe amount of iodine. There are excellent references describing the effect of a moderate iodine excess (even below a milligram per day) on the thyroid. An iodine deficiency can cause hypothyroidism (rare now), but so can an excess. Iodine deficiency is an unusual cause of hypothyroidism, except in a few places, like the mountains of Mexico and China, and the Andes.

“Most goiters now are from estrogen-like effects, but they used to be from iodine deficiency. Chronic excess iodine tends to cause thyroiditis, regardless of the gland’s size. The amounts used by Abraham and Flechas are much larger than this — very toxic doses, enough to cause severe thyroid problems.”

Is the Iodine Test Kit (from Dr. Abraham) valid and does it reveal thyroid deficiency?

“Guy Abraham and some of his followers claim that an iodine deficiency can be shown by the quick disappearance of a spot of iodine painted on the skin. The skin test of iodine deficiency is completely unscientific. Iodine is converted to colorless iodide by reductants, including vitamin C, glutathione, and thiosulphate. “G. Abraham’s Iodine Test Kit contains iodine overdose pills. The test is completely irrational. It implies that the body should be saturated with iodine.”

Is there a rational way to determine iodine deficiency or excess?

“It’s easy to recognize a chronic iodine deficiency, because it causes the thyroid gland to enlarge. Goiters can be caused in various ways, for example by being exposed to various goitrogens, including excess iodine, or by excessive estrogen and deficient progesterone, as well as by an iodine deficiency. “However, a chronic excess of iodine is harder to recognize, because it can produce a variety of degenerative changes. Measurement of the average daily iodine intake or excretion in the urine would be needed to confirm an excess. High iodine intake can suppress TSH, and since high TSH is pro-inflammatory, the iodine can have some protective anti-inflammatory actions, but in the long run, the thyroid suppression becomes a problem.”

Note: I have a list of references on iodine toxicity that are too lengthy for this newsletter. If you are interested in these references, please email me at [email protected], and I will send them to you.

Reference

To Your Health – July 2008 by Lita Lee

Posted in General.

Tagged with functionalps, hypothyroidism, iodine, Lita Lee, Ray Peat, Rob Turner, Simi Valley, thyroid, TSH.

1 comment
By Team FPS – October 12, 2011
source
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/1 ... -ray-peat/

 

[himsahimsa]

Thanks but this is not related to my post.

 

[himsahimsa]

Thanks mittir but this is not related to my post: High iodine > inhibition of lipid peroxidation > suppression of estrogenicity. Or alternatively; polyunsaturated fatty acids might be less estrogenic simply by being conjugated with iodine. Or not. I'm making a hypothesis.

 

[fabiomln]

Even if Peat is not in favor of huge doses of iodine, here what he is saying about iodine (iodide):

One of the best-known free radical scavenging substances that has been widely used as a drug is iodide. It has been used to treat asthma, parasites, syphilis, cancer, Graves’ disease, periodontal disease, and arteriosclerosis. Diseases that produce tissue overgrowth associated with inflammation--granulomas--have been treated with iodides, and although the iodide doesn’t necessarily kill the germ, it does help to break down and remove the granuloma. Leprosy and syphilis were among the diseases involving granulomas* that were treated in this way. In the case of tuberculosis, it has been suggested that iodides combine with unsaturated fatty acids which inhibit proteolytic enzymes, and thus allow for the removal of the abnormal tissue.

In experimental animals, iodide clearly delays the appearance of cataracts. (Buchberger, et al., 199l.)

Inflammation, edema, and free radical production are closely linked, and are produced by most things that interfere with energy production.

Endotoxin, produced by bacteria, mainly in the intestine, disrupts energy production, and promotes maladaptive inflammation. The wide spectrum of benefit that iodide has, especially in diseases with an inflammatory component, suggests first that it protects tissue by blocking free radical damage, but it also suggests the possibility that it might specifically protect against endotoxin.

 

[himsahimsa]

Thanks. Doesn't address my question about suppression of estrogenicity but it is interesting. Where did you find it?

 

[fabiomln]

this is the article:
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/trans ... acts.shtml.

Peat says that there is a correlation between unsaturated fatty acids / endotoxin and estrogens.
So, if iodide protects from unsaturated fatty acids / endotoxin, then it protects from estrogen.

These are some studies about iodine and estrogen related problems (fibrocystic dysplasia of the breast, breast cancer, endometriosis, ovarian cysts and premenstrual syndrome).
http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Par ... PN/5589198

Remember Peat doesn't suggest use of huge quantity of iodine.

 

[Stilgar]

Hmm these days i don't know what to make of rays views on iodine. I find about 6mg to be great in tandem with thyroid. No negatives, unless i up the dose by accident.

no idea what the mechanism for it might be, if ray is correct.

 

[himsahimsa]

Please point me to some R.P. discussion of iodine. Thanks fabiomln

 

[himsahimsa]

I've been taking, averaging, iodine 12mg/D for ~2 years. No ill effects, no apparent increase in thyroid function but no decrease either, going by body temperature and subjective energy, which has always been pretty good anyway. TSH went from 1.3[sup]ish[/sup] to 0.6[sup]ish[/sup]. I keep all my labs in an excel file since 2001 so I can look back. I can say enthusiastically that the subjective feeling from the iodine is entirely wholesome, in the sense, "Do I feel healthier, more solid, when supplementing it?" But I have been healthy, no complaints (excepting accidents and the occasional poisoning), all my life, so I am no good example of the therapeutic value iodine. (I'm 65 and have been deep in the "Health Food" or some say hygienic, camp since I was 18, and my mom, and her mom, pretty much cooked from scratch and avoided processed anything on principal.)

 

[fabiomln]

Please point me to some R.P. discussion of iodine. Thanks fabiomln

There are not many R.P. discussions about iodine.
Some have been posted in your post.

 

[Steven e]

Unrelated to the main subject, but the iodine issue is very confusing and I think it's time that everyone admits that the controversy is totally justified so that we can get closer to understanding the whole thing. Personally, I have had excellent results in basic markers of good function, and only briefly passing negative or concerning effects with higher doses of lugols 25mg >. one drop, 6.25 mg doesn't have the same effect. Flechas and Brownstein seem to have all the answers, but the answers are always short and the same... add even more iodine or take companion supplements. I don't trust their intellectual honesty... or anyones, including mine. I'd like to see Ray Peat asked some more probing and informed questions regarding iodine and in particular, why might it be that some people respond so wonderfully to the stuff and what about the claims that negative effects are nearly always caused by lack of adequate selenium. I would really like to see a well considered article by him that addresseing the various contradictory views.

 

[haidut]

Hhmm, so if somebody is PUFA depleted wouldn't that suggest that they would have low serum iodine (unless caused by a deficiency)? In other words, less PUFA means less need for iodine. There are quite a few studies on PubMed saying EFA "deficient" people with dermatitis have low serum iodine. I think also William Brown who did the famous fat free diet also experienced low serum iodine as per this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5922&p=70862&hilit=william+brown+iodine#p70862

So, it seems to me the ideal state is for iodine to be a low as possible without being in the deficiency range. This means as close as possible to the 40mcg/L lower end of the normal range but not lower. Values close to the upper limit of 90mcg/L would indicate too much PUFA or iodine overload from supplements, food, or environment.
Thoughts?

 

[montmorency]

Unrelated to the main subject, but the iodine issue is very confusing and I think it's time that everyone admits that the controversy is totally justified so that we can get closer to understanding the whole thing. Personally, I have had excellent results in basic markers of good function, and only briefly passing negative or concerning effects with higher doses of lugols 25mg >. one drop, 6.25 mg doesn't have the same effect. Flechas and Brownstein seem to have all the answers, but the answers are always short and the same... add even more iodine or take companion supplements. I don't trust their intellectual honesty... or anyones, including mine. I'd like to see Ray Peat asked some more probing and informed questions regarding iodine and in particular, why might it be that some people respond so wonderfully to the stuff and what about the claims that negative effects are nearly always caused by lack of adequate selenium. I would really like to see a well considered article by him that addresseing the various contradictory views.

I would love to see this as well.


I've previously searched the articles on RayPeat.com, and also searched this forum with appropriate keywords. I get that Ray disagrees with iodine supplementation,and that he seems to disagree with Brownstein et al on this subject.

However, I've yet to find out what he believes is the mechanism for iodine's alleged negative affects (when supplemented) on the thyroid function.

I've seen citations where he says that it was discovered 30 years ago that "most Americans" had too much iodine (except for in certain areas). I wonder about this. How was "too much" actually determined? And if they do, where are (or were) they getting it from? As I understand it, not all table salt in the USA is iodised nowadays. And people have been discouraged from using too much salt for quite a few years. Bread flour is no longer iodised. I find it hard to believe that the average American consumes very much seaweed or kelp, and do they even consume that much seafood? I guess they do traditionally consume a lot of meat, so is that where it's supposed to be coming from? This would presume that the animals on which they feed were pastured on soils that were rich in iodine, or that iodine was supplemented in their feed.

For those of us who do not live in the USA, the situation might well be different anyway. Someone posted in another thread this map/chart: http://www.who.int/vmnis/iodine/status/ ... r.pdf?ua=1

If that chart is correct, then it does indeed look as though the USA is pretty rich in iodine (I assume this is based on soil levels?). However, that is not true for a lot of the world, and as for my own dear UK, there is no data (why am I not surprised....).

All in all, I'm pretty puzzled.

However, rather than risk haphazard dosages from seafood (not to mention mercury), or what I may or may not get from my meat or eggs, surely it would be less risky to very very cautiously supplement with known small doses (of say Lugol's)?

 

[Brian]

I would love to see this as well.


I've previously searched the articles on RayPeat.com, and also searched this forum with appropriate keywords. I get that Ray disagrees with iodine supplementation,and that he seems to disagree with Brownstein et al on this subject.

However, I've yet to find out what he believes is the mechanism for iodine's alleged negative affects (when supplemented) on the thyroid function.

I've seen citations where he says that it was discovered 30 years ago that "most Americans" had too much iodine (except for in certain areas). I wonder about this. How was "too much" actually determined? And if they do, where are (or were) they getting it from? As I understand it, not all table salt in the USA is iodised nowadays. And people have been discouraged from using too much salt for quite a few years. Bread flour is no longer iodised. I find it hard to believe that the average American consumes very much seaweed or kelp, and do they even consume that much seafood? I guess they do traditionally consume a lot of meat, so is that where it's supposed to be coming from? This would presume that the animals on which they feed were pastured on soils that were rich in iodine, or that iodine was supplemented in their feed.

For those of us who do not live in the USA, the situation might well be different anyway. Someone posted in another thread this map/chart: http://www.who.int/vmnis/iodine/status/ ... r.pdf?ua=1

If that chart is correct, then it does indeed look as though the USA is pretty rich in iodine (I assume this is based on soil levels?). However, that is not true for a lot of the world, and as for my own dear UK, there is no data (why am I not surprised....).

All in all, I'm pretty puzzled.

However, rather than risk haphazard dosages from seafood (not to mention mercury), or what I may or may not get from my meat or eggs, surely it would be less risky to very very cautiously supplement with known small doses (of say Lugol's)?

Conventional dairy is high in iodine (I think usually around 50mcg per cup of milk). Maybe even too high for people with thyroiditis. And think this is the main danger in iodine supplementation: inducing Autoimmune Thyroiditis.

If I understand it right high iodine intake is very likely to cause Thyroiditis if there are deficiencies in magnesium, Vitamin A, zinc, selenium, copper in particular. An inflammatory response seems to be the body's way of shutting off hormone production in order to not make the deficiencies worse.

I have tried iodine supplementation before around 2mg per day of kelp iodine. It felt great at first, but I think it was too hard to keep from getting deficient in co-factors and it ended up in Thyroiditis and it took months to recover. I think it's much safer to focus on good nutrition that covers all the other co-factor basics and maybe giving some red light therapy to the thyroid to heal any inflammation you might have there and do very minor iodine supplementation (under 400mcg per day) if you aren't eating seafood or conventional dairy that would easily supply your iodine needs.

Increasing magnesium, zinc, vitamin A, copper, B vitamins, red light are probably much safer ways to increase thyroid function than increasing iodine.

 

[montmorency]

Conventional dairy is high in iodine (I think usually around 50mcg per cup of milk). Maybe even too high for people with thyroiditis. And think this is the main danger in iodine supplementation: inducing Autoimmune Thyroiditis.

If I understand it right high iodine intake is very likely to cause Thyroiditis if there are deficiencies in magnesium, Vitamin A, zinc, selenium, copper in particular. An inflammatory response seems to be the body's way of shutting off hormone production in order to not make the deficiencies worse.

I have tried iodine supplementation before around 2mg per day of kelp iodine. It felt great at first, but I think it was too hard to keep from getting deficient in co-factors and it ended up in Thyroiditis and it took months to recover. I think it's much safer to focus on good nutrition that covers all the other co-factor basics and maybe giving some red light therapy to the thyroid to heal any inflammation you might have there and do very minor iodine supplementation (under 400mcg per day) if you aren't eating seafood or conventional dairy that would easily supply your iodine needs.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the quick reply.
Your points seem sensible.
However, what you say about conventional dairy may only be true for the USA (or other places with iodine-rich soils). It would be good to find out what the true situation is here in the UK, but given that Ireland seems to be low (on that chart I posted a link to), I would guess that Britain is similar.

 

[Brian]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the quick reply.
Your points seem sensible.
However, what you say about conventional dairy may only be true for the USA (or other places with iodine-rich soils). It would be good to find out what the true situation is here in the UK, but given that Ireland seems to be low (on that chart I posted a link to), I would guess that Britain is similar.

Conventional dairy is usually high iodine because it is used to sanitize the udders during milking. It is also supplemented in cattle feed. Do you know if that practice is used in the UK?