If There's Bacteria in Human Breastmilk, Why Do Haidut and Peat Push the Sterile Gut Nonsense?

[TheBeard]

Hey man...do you mind if I PM you?

Please do.
Even ask your question here so everyone can benefit

 

[tankasnowgod]

@DANIΣL

What's wrong with that title "All Gut Bacteria Dangerous, It's Endotoxin Drives Liver Cancer; Antibiotics Cure?" All gut bacteria can be dangerous. Your little laughing emoji does nothing to refute that fact. Haidut even gives an example in the thread of how. He's posted other threads showing how so called "good" bacterial strains can be very detrimental to health-

A Common Probiotic Strain (lactobacillus) May Cause Lupus

In one of his articles, Ray briefly mentioned the possible role of lactobacillus strains in the pathology of Lupus. Food-junk and some mystery ailments: Fatigue, Alzheimer's, Colitis, Immunodeficiency. Carrageenan "...The variations in the post-influenza syndromes are very likely influenced by...

raypeatforum.com

The whole idea of "good" bacteria probably should be discarded, and replaced with the idea of more or less pathogenic bacteria. Or maybe the concept of "mostly benign." If gut bacteria is kept in check, and contained within the gut (two big "Ifs" nowadays), then certain species can be mostly benign, maybe even slightly beneficial. But if they overgrow (because of low body temp or too much iron or whatever), or if they get into other parts of the body (like the lymphatic system), they can certainly be dangerous. Sort of like a caged tiger. When contained, it doesn't pose much of a threat, but if it escapes.........

 

[Perry Staltic]

The whole idea of "good" bacteria probably should be discarded

There's no such thing as healthy innate immunity without good gut bacteria. Research immunity + microbiome.

 

[Perry Staltic]

if they get into other parts of the body (like the lymphatic system), they can certainly be dangerous. Sort of like a caged tiger. When contained, it doesn't pose much of a threat, but if it escapes.........

That's one of the points. A healthy microbiome maintains the mucosal lining that prevents intestinal permeability.

 

[tankasnowgod]

There's no such thing as healthy innate immunity without good gut bacteria. Research immunity + microbiome.

Sure there is. This is witnessed by the fact that animals with sterile guts are very hard to kill, both with diseases and trauma.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Sure there is. This is witnessed by the fact that animals with sterile guts are very hard to kill, both with diseases and trauma.

I meant in humans

 

[DANIEL]

What's wrong with that title "All Gut Bacteria Dangerous, It's Endotoxin Drives Liver Cancer; Antibiotics Cure?" All gut bacteria can be dangerous. Your little laughing emoji does nothing to refute that fact. Haidut even gives an example in the thread of how. He's posted other threads showing how so called "good" bacterial strains can be very detrimental to health-

Have fun consuming your regular dose of antibiotics, then. Or better yet, why don't you just wipe out your entire microbiome?

Cherry-picking research that supports your view of all gut bacteria being dangerous and ignoring the plethora of studies that continue to discover more about the importance and benefits of a healthy microbiome really shows what an open-minded person you are.

But if they overgrow (because of low body temp or too much iron or whatever), or if they get into other parts of the body (like the lymphatic system), they can certainly be dangerous.

Obviously. No one's arguing that there's no such thing as SIBO and that endotoxin isn't bad.

There's no such thing as healthy innate immunity without good gut bacteria. Research immunity + microbiome.

That's one of the points. A healthy microbiome maintains the mucosal lining that prevents intestinal permeability.

+1

The microbiome and innate immunity​

Intestinal Permeability Regulation by Tight Junction: Implication on Inflammatory Bowel Diseases​

Upregulation of T-bet and tight junction molecules by Bifidobactrium longum improves colonic inflammation of ulcerative colitis​

Just to list a few...

He's posted other threads showing how so called "good" bacterial strains can be very detrimental to health

And I could post some threads showing how "good" bacterial strains can be very BENEFICIAL to health.

It's not as one-sided as you'd like it to be.

Haidut saying that "All Gut Bacteria Is Dangerous" is ridiculous.

 

[tankasnowgod]

There is something odd with your posts, @DANIΣL. I get an error message every time I try and quote something from you.

I have seen positive results from Antibiotics, personally. And also Activated Charcoal. And zero results from Probiotics. I don't know why you would laugh at people who have seen benefits from antibiotics, they are probably one of the more useful classes of drugs out there.

Of course, having said that, Antibiotics are also dangerous. Peat and Haidut both mention the dangers, and even when talking about how a sterile gut can be beneficial.

All gut bacteria is dangerous, and Haidut gave examples of how and why. There are lots of dangerous things that can be beneficial. Take guns and cars. Both are dangerous. But cars are incredibly useful as transportation. And a gun can defend your property and your life. But it's still dangerous.

It's ridiculous to think that gut bacteria isn't dangerous. If you actually READ the threads Haidut posted, it's very clear he isn't one sided, and neither is Peat. As an example-

Probiotics- Better Off Dead. (And More Effective!)

One of the ideas of Ray Peat's that seems to run counter to both the mainstream and alternative health world is that bacteria in the GI tract is NOT beneficial, in general. Peat has said that there are some strains of bacteria that are less harmful than others, and even can produce some...

raypeatforum.com

You clearly didn't even read MY words. I didn't say it was one sided. Go back and read what I actually wrote. And also, go and read what Haidut actually wrote.

None of the links you posted in the last post are "studies." They appear to be writeups. Have you read them all? Did you know that Takeda et al. was just a letter to the editor?

You say you CAN post threads on how some bacterial strains are "good" for health. Well...... then why don't you do it? That's where there can be more productive debate, rather than just calling someone else's work "ridiculous."

 

[Perry Staltic]

There is something odd with your posts, @DANIΣL. I get an error message every time I try and quote something from you.

Same with me.

 

[somuch4food]

My guess would be the special character in his name. @charlie @Blossom I think there's a bug when quoting @DANIΣL

 

[charlie]

My guess would be the special character in his name. @charlie @Blossom I think there's a bug when quoting @DANIΣL

I have tried many times to reproduce the error but am not able.

 

[JKX]

There's no such thing as healthy innate immunity without good gut bacteria. Research immunity + microbiome.

Your observations are based on mainstream perversions of what immunity constitutes. What does immunity constitute? Inflammatory response, no thanks, antibodies? I'll pass. If your body is reacting in that way you've already bypassed several safety systems. Truly healthy immune function may be observed in a child. Very little inflammatory response due to high metabolic rate. High thyroid, high protective sterol production, high state of respiration.

That's one of the points. A healthy microbiome maintains the mucosal lining that prevents intestinal permeability.

Perhaps. Defining a 'healthy' microbiome may be problematic though. Microbiota will vary immensley depending on environment, food choices, stress to name but a few potential factors.

A quick search for 'progesterone protects gut mucosa' yields several studies showing progesterone to exert a positive effect on gut barrier function. DHEA the same. Ray is clear on this. Thyroid and all the downsream hormones which emanate from it are broadly protective for all tissues including for the gut. Several studies show IBD sufferers to elicit increased cortisol response. There are also several studies showing benefit to IBD from preg, prog and DHEA. I wouldn't be so quick to write off Ray or Haidut's stance on this, it's obviously a very complex topic.

IMO overall bacteria count should be kept low to keep endotoxin to a minimum. But I also believe having a bifidobacteria dominant colon is desirable and being germ free is impossible. It seems logical to me that if having some bacteria in the colon is unavoidable, then the bacteria which are present should at least confer something beneficial to the host. Whether this is a symbiotic relationship which has been developed with the bacteria or in spite of them is open for debate. Are the bacteria producing beneficial substances (b vits, vit k2, short chain fatty acids) for our use or for their own selfish reasons and we just happen to get some benefit? Tough one to call.

 

[DANIEL]

There is something odd with your posts, @DANIΣL. I get an error message every time I try and quote something from you.

I have seen positive results from Antibiotics, personally. And also Activated Charcoal. And zero results from Probiotics. I don't know why you would laugh at people who have seen benefits from antibiotics, they are probably one of the more useful classes of drugs out there.

Of course, having said that, Antibiotics are also dangerous. Peat and Haidut both mention the dangers, and even when talking about how a sterile gut can be beneficial.

All gut bacteria is dangerous, and Haidut gave examples of how and why. There are lots of dangerous things that can be beneficial. Take guns and cars. Both are dangerous. But cars are incredibly useful as transportation. And a gun can defend your property and your life. But it's still dangerous.

It's ridiculous to think that gut bacteria isn't dangerous. If you actually READ the threads Haidut posted, it's very clear he isn't one sided, and neither is Peat. As an example-

Probiotics- Better Off Dead. (And More Effective!)

One of the ideas of Ray Peat's that seems to run counter to both the mainstream and alternative health world is that bacteria in the GI tract is NOT beneficial, in general. Peat has said that there are some strains of bacteria that are less harmful than others, and even can produce some...

raypeatforum.com

You clearly didn't even read MY words. I didn't say it was one sided. Go back and read what I actually wrote. And also, go and read what Haidut actually wrote.

I'm not laughing at people who have seen benefits from antibiotics. I was laughing at the notion that "All Gut Bacteria Is Dangerous"

If AC and antibiotics work for you, then congrats, but I'd be concerned about the long-term effects of both.

Antibiotics are responsible for more lives saved than any other class of drug, no one is denying this.

But considering the role of the microbiome in immunity, intestinal permeability, vitamin synthesis, circadian rhythm, etc. I just think it's foolish to use antibiotics unless they're a last resort, considering the irreparable damage they often cause.

There's never been an example of a human with a sterile gut and there never will be. Peat doesn't have one, neither does Georgie.

Trillions of beneficial bacteria reside along your epithelial wall and (partly by sheer strength in numbers) maintain your gut barrier integrity, making it difficult for inhospitable bacteria to penetrate. They help maintain an acidic environment to dissuade certain alkaline-loving pathogenic bacteria from taking root. They support the secretion of intestinal mucus and collaborate closely with your gut’s ‘gatekeepers’ (tight junctions) to modulate what should (i.e. nutrients) or shouldn’t (i.e. undigested food particles or pathogenic bacteria) pass through to the body.

The WHO's definition of probiotics are “live microorganisms which when administered in adequate amounts confer a health benefit on the host”

So by definition, a legit probiotic supplement (not kombucha, kefir, or other fermented foods) has randomized controlled trials that prove it has specific benefits in humans.

You can go even further and check if the supplement you've taken has 100% survival to the colon through SHIME simulated human intestinal studies.

This definition is unfortunately not enforced in the US, although it is in the EU. You can sell probiotic tortilla chips here and get away with it.

Healthy people have diverse microbiota that work in unison with the host.

Using antibiotics is often what causes dysbiosis in the first place, just think about how often they are prescribed in the US, if they were that beneficial to use regularly, people here wouldn't be so unhealthy.

None of the links you posted in the last post are "studies." They appear to be writeups. Have you read them all? Did you know that Takeda et al. was just a letter to the editor?

If you're actually open to a different perspective, then you can do some research and easily find out about the importance of the microbiome.

Babies who aren't born by vaginal birth and don't get exposure to their mother's beneficial bacteria already experience allergies, eczema, etc. at a higher rate.

If you'd like some studies, here:

Asthma at 8 years of age in children born by caesarean section
Caesarean section delivery and the risk of allergic disorders in childhood
Delivery mode shapes the acquisition and structure of the initial microbiota across multiple body habitats in newborns

Kids who don't get breastfed also have dysbiosis, because they never got the beneficial bacteria from their mother's breastmilk:

Analysis of Intestinal Flora Development in Breast-Fed and Formula-Fed Infants by Using Molecular Identification and Detection Methods​

Early-Life Events, Including Mode of Delivery and Type of Feeding, Siblings and Gender, Shape the Developing Gut MicrobiotaError - Cookies Turned Off​

Furthermore, the dangers of antibiotic use:

Long-term ecological impacts of antibiotic administration on the human intestinal microbiota​

These results demonstrate that long after the selection pressure from a short antibiotic exposure has been removed, there are still persistent long term impacts on the human intestinal microbiota that remain for up to 2 years post-treatment.

Incomplete recovery and individualized responses of the human distal gut microbiota to repeated antibiotic perturbation​

In all subjects, the composition of the gut microbiota stabilized by the end of the experiment but was altered from its initial state. As with other ecosystems, the human distal gut microbiome at baseline is a dynamic regimen with a stable average state. Antibiotic perturbation may cause a shift to an alternative stable state, the full consequences of which remain unknown.

You say you CAN post threads on how some bacterial strains are "good" for health. Well...... then why don't you do it? That's where there can be more productive debate, rather than just calling someone else's work "ridiculous."

Gut microbiota functions: metabolism of nutrients and other food components​

Bacteria as vitamin suppliers to their host: a gut microbiota perspective​

Formation of propionate and butyrate by the human colonic microbiota​

Effectiveness of probiotics in type 2 diabetes: a meta-analysis​

B‐Group vitamin production by lactic acid bacteria – current knowledge and potential applications​

 

[DANIEL]

being germ free is impossible. It seems logical to me that if having some bacteria in the colon is unavoidable, then the bacteria which are present should at least confer something beneficial to the host. Whether this is a symbiotic relationship which has been developed with the bacteria or in spite of them is open for debate. Are the bacteria producing beneficial substances (b vits, vit k2, short chain fatty acids) for our use or for their own selfish reasons and we just happen to get some benefit? Tough one to call.

Defining a 'healthy' microbiome may be problematic though. Microbiota will vary immensley depending on environment, food choices, stress to name but a few potential factors.

Agreed. It's impossible to define a healthy microbiome.

 

[cjm]

My thought on this whole debate was that the germ-free state might not be achievable or beneficial under the current conditions, but I guess you should define the current conditions so that you could scientifically investigate the conditions under which germ-free can happen, but only if the germ-free animals are truly remarkable. From memory, they are "remarkably resistant to shock, infection, and trauma" -- but like, how remarkable? Are they all the equivalent of better-than-the-best Olympic athletes? Do they live insanely luxurious lives in the sterile lab? This is what this whole thing hinges on, those damn vivacious GF mice, and they're sort of mythical. I haven't found a lot of evidence compiled in one place and I have heard from both sides.

 

[Perry Staltic]

This is the error msg I get when I respond to Daniel with a quote:

Oops! We ran into some problems. Please try again later. More error details may be in the browser console."

This is what I was replying to: "You can sell probiotic tortilla chips here and get away with it"

My response: That's actually how I found out about bacillus coagulens; produced a noticeable improvement in my daily deposits. Made a believer out of me.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Your observations are based on mainstream perversions of what immunity constitutes. What does immunity constitute? Inflammatory response, no thanks, antibodies? I'll pass.

I think you're making some big assumptions. If the innate immune system is working at optimal capacity you won't always notice an inflammatory response. It's happening, you're just not aware of it because your system is responding quickly and effectively.

 

[charlie]

This is the error msg I get when I respond to Daniel with a quote:

I am troubleshooting it.

 

[tankasnowgod]

@DANIΣL Here are my responses to your most recent message.

1. You can laugh at Haidut's thread title that "All Gut Bacteria Dangerous" all you want, it still doesn't make it inaccurate. Are you aware of the definition of the word "dangerous?" Here's what I get when I type it into Google for a definition-

Adjective, -able or likely to cause harm or injury. Second sense -likely to cause problems or to have adverse consequences.

Hmmmm. Based on those definitions, and the content of the thread, it would appear accurate. Replacing the word you're hung up on with the definition, we get "All Gut Bacteria able or likely to cause harm or injury" or "All Gut Bacteria likely to cause problems or to have adverse consequences." Both statements are accurate in the context, especially when he spells out how they are dangerous in the second part of the title (by their production of endotoxin causing liver cancer). He didn't say "Acutely Lethal," which would have been wrong. Basically, gut bacteria are dangerous in the same way plaque in the arteries are dangerous.

If you aren't hung up on the word "dangerous," are you claiming that some strains of gut bacteria don't produce endotoxin?

2. Your claim that "no human has ever had a sterile gut" is flat out wrong. Guess you don't know about David Vetter, aka The Bubble Boy?



More practically, Haidut has cited the example of humans that are on long term antibiotics for things like Lyme Disease, that develop a Sterile (or 99% Sterile) Gut as a side effect of the treatment. Those would be more applicable, as basically no one would choose to live in an isolater like Vetter did, and certainly can't do so retroactively since their birth.

3. I agree that antibiotics should be approached with caution, although I wouldn't go so far as to say "last resort." I do think some of the dangers of antibiotics are overblown. Note the use of the word "danger." That said, I think antibiotics are dangerous too, hence why I said caution in the first sentence of this part.

4. I don't think antibiotics are the only or main factor in gut dysbiosis, certainly not in the US. As a major factor, I would point again to iron in my earlier post, especially supplemental iron like ferrous sulfate. Especially worrisome is the iron found in infant formulas. I think there are benefits to breast milk far beyond bacterial content, maybe even in spite of any bacteria that does appear in breast milk.

I think formula feeding probably one of the major factors in dysbiosis, expecially with so much free iron. 1.8mg in 5fl oz, with no protections like you might get if you ate spinach or beef. Milk (all sorts) has virtually no iron. Infants generally don't need it, they are born iron loaded, which is good, as they "grow" into their iron stores. "Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron" by E.D. Weinberg goes into greater detail about this, and details some of the more horrific experiments where otherwise healthy babies die as a result of getting an injection of Iron Dextran.

5. C Section is a stressful way to be born. Neither Haidut nor Peat recommend it, and I don't know if it has much to do with the so called "beneficial bacteria of the mother," though I know I have seen that claim elsewhere. Vaginal birth is certainly better in a number of ways. Same thing with Breast Milk, I pointed out the issue with formula, which most parents use as a substitute nowadays. Using cow or goat milk might avoid some of the formula problems, again many which have nothing to do with so called "beneficial bacteria."

6. You shouldn't make assumptions about others. I have been on the "other side," back in my Paleo days. I tried probiotics like Prescript Assist, ate raw potato starch for the Resistant Starch, drank kombucha, even made my own kefir from raw milk, and saurkraut to boot. I'm not really interested in that so much nowadays, and like I said, I have found much better success personally from things like Antibiotics and AC.

7. You really do seem to be more interested in the concept of the microbiome. That's why I suggested you start a thread. I didn't mean just post a bunch of studies that you didn't read. But a thread, similar to the way Haidut does it, where he posts the study, gives and overview and quotes, and then his own take on it. I think that would be more valuable in general.

By the way, did you look at my thread on how Peat talks about the benefits of lactobacillus bacteria to the gut....... even if the organism is dead? Posting again here in case you missed it-

Probiotics- Better Off Dead. (And More Effective!)

One of the ideas of Ray Peat's that seems to run counter to both the mainstream and alternative health world is that bacteria in the GI tract is NOT beneficial, in general. Peat has said that there are some strains of bacteria that are less harmful than others, and even can produce some...

raypeatforum.com

Here's the clip that leads it off, you should at least listen to this part-

 

[JKX]

I think you're making some big assumptions. If the innate immune system is working at optimal capacity you won't always notice an inflammatory response. It's happening, you're just not aware of it because your system is responding quickly and effectively.

That's fair. I'm attempting to draw conclusions from a young persons response versus an aged adults response, which I think from a health perspective is reasonable.

There's no such thing as healthy innate immunity without good gut bacteria. Research immunity + microbiome.

But I'd also argue, based on the above, you are making those same assumptions I'm guilty of.