If There's Bacteria in Human Breastmilk, Why Do Haidut and Peat Push the Sterile Gut Nonsense?

[TheBeard]

Your observations are based on mainstream perversions of what immunity constitutes. What does immunity constitute? Inflammatory response, no thanks, antibodies? I'll pass. If your body is reacting in that way you've already bypassed several safety systems. Truly healthy immune function may be observed in a child. Very little inflammatory response due to high metabolic rate. High thyroid, high protective sterol production, high state of respiration.

Perhaps. Defining a 'healthy' microbiome may be problematic though. Microbiota will vary immensley depending on environment, food choices, stress to name but a few potential factors.

A quick search for 'progesterone protects gut mucosa' yields several studies showing progesterone to exert a positive effect on gut barrier function. DHEA the same. Ray is clear on this. Thyroid and all the downsream hormones which emanate from it are broadly protective for all tissues including for the gut. Several studies show IBD sufferers to elicit increased cortisol response. There are also several studies showing benefit to IBD from preg, prog and DHEA. I wouldn't be so quick to write off Ray or Haidut's stance on this, it's obviously a very complex topic.

IMO overall bacteria count should be kept low to keep endotoxin to a minimum. But I also believe having a bifidobacteria dominant colon is desirable and being germ free is impossible. It seems logical to me that if having some bacteria in the colon is unavoidable, then the bacteria which are present should at least confer something beneficial to the host. Whether this is a symbiotic relationship which has been developed with the bacteria or in spite of them is open for debate. Are the bacteria producing beneficial substances (b vits, vit k2, short chain fatty acids) for our use or for their own selfish reasons and we just happen to get some benefit? Tough one to call.

Couldn't have said it better, well thought post.

 

[TheBeard]

There's no such thing as healthy innate immunity without good gut bacteria. Research immunity + microbiome.

We are all aware of mainstream research on here, whether it be on hormones or so called "new topics" as the microbiome, although they've been around for enough years to read all studies in depth.
The goal here is to go further than the mainstream narrative and to understand why it could be flowed because not considering the organism in its entirety.
Not that mainstream research always draws the wrong conclusions, just that it can be blind to the bigger picture.

 

[Perry Staltic]

We are all aware of mainstream research on here, whether it be on hormones or so called "new topics" as the microbiome, although they've been around for enough years to read all studies in depth.
The goal here is to go further than the mainstream narrative and to understand why it could be flowed because not considering the organism in its entirety.
Not that mainstream research always draws the wrong conclusions, just that it can be blind to the bigger picture.

That sounds good to me. Gotta push the envelope. Test all things

 

[Perry Staltic]

But I'd also argue, based on the above, you are making those same assumptions I'm guilty of.

I agree. I'm always willing to listen and learn new things. My mind's been blown before.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Here's the clip that leads it off, you should at least listen to this part-

I'm a bit conflicted/skeptical of this claim that lactic acid is not beneficial in the gut (if I understood him correctly). The reason being that bacillus coagulens has given me the best gut health I have ever had in my adult life; at least that's my subjective perception. No intestinal turmoil, nice clean meatballs that probably wouldn't leave a stain on TP (don't know cuz I use a bidet), less bad smell, smaller deposits and one offload per day instead of several throughout the day. I attribute these things to it's ability to coagulate via lactic acid (it's also called lactobacillus sporogenes) and possibly a larger gut population due to its supposedly better survivability in the gut, as opposed to let's say acidophilus.

 

[somuch4food]

Truly healthy immune function may be observed in a child. Very little inflammatory response due to high metabolic rate. High thyroid, high protective sterol production, high state of respiration.

Children have very little inflammatory response? How come they are much more prone to fever? When they are sick, they are sick! Their body reacts acutely to threats with many symptoms related to inflammation. When those symptoms seem too much for their little body, modern medicine relies on acetaminophen and ibuprofen to make symptoms more tolerable.

 

[jb116]

Children have very little inflammatory response? How come they are much more prone to fever? When they are sick, they are sick! Their body reacts acutely to threats with many symptoms related to inflammation. When those symptoms seem too much for their little body, modern medicine relies on acetaminophen and ibuprofen to make symptoms more tolerable.

In rats it's demonstrated that young organisms have a much better febrile response to pyrogens than older organisms. It's that very diminished response that probably leads older organisms down the more inflammatory path. Also that kind of febrile response in children makes the fever a desirable thing to fight off whatever given pathogen.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I'm a bit conflicted/skeptical of this claim that lactic acid is not beneficial in the gut (if I understood him correctly). The reason being that bacillus coagulens has given me the best gut health I have ever had in my adult life; at least that's my subjective perception. No intestinal turmoil, nice clean meatballs that probably wouldn't leave a stain on TP (don't know cuz I use a bidet), less bad smell, smaller deposits and one offload per day instead of several throughout the day. I attribute these things to it's ability to coagulate via lactic acid (it's also called lactobacillus sporogenes) and possibly a larger gut population due to its supposedly better survivability in the gut, as opposed to let's say acidophilus.

Peat's idea is that it's something about the organism itself that produces the benefits, even if it's dead. He said that part twice.

Regardless, this idea should be pretty easy to put to the test. Take the probiotic you are using, and somehow make sure all the spores are dead. You can do this simply with heat, by just adding the probiotic to whatever you are cooking. Or heating the pills themselves. Do this for a week or two, see if the benefits stay the same, go away, or become amplified.

I remember a lot of complaints from my paleo days of people talking about how most probiotics were dead by the time people were using them, since most weren't refrigerated, and such. Maybe you've been experiencing the benefits of the dead organism, anyway.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Peat's idea is that it's something about the organism itself that produces the benefits, even if it's dead. He said that part twice.

Regardless, this idea should be pretty easy to put to the test. Take the probiotic you are using, and somehow make sure all the spores are dead. You can do this simply with heat, by just adding the probiotic to whatever you are cooking. Or heating the pills themselves. Do this for a week or two, see if the benefits stay the same, go away, or become amplified.

I remember a lot of complaints from my paleo days of people talking about how most probiotics were dead by the time people were using them, since most weren't refrigerated, and such. Maybe you've been experiencing the benefits of the dead organism, anyway.

I think the spore forming probiotics have better survivability, and don't really become active until they hit stomach acid, where they then pass into the intestine and proliferate. I have my doubts about dead bacillus coagulens causing the obvious coagulation I'm seeing, because that is what lactic acid does.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Children have very little inflammatory response? How come they are much more prone to fever? When they are sick, they are sick! Their body reacts acutely to threats with many symptoms related to inflammation. When those symptoms seem too much for their little body, modern medicine relies on acetaminophen and ibuprofen to make symptoms more tolerable.

Because fever is a good thing, so long as it doesn't go too high (over 104 degrees). It helps the body kill off pathogens. The fever itself isn't really an inflammatory response. In fact, it might be anti-inflammatory itself. Peat talks about this in his most recent newsletter, and there is a German author, Uwe Karstädt, who makes similar points about body temperature and fever.



(youtube can autogenerate English subtitles).

Also, this thread- Recover To Optimal Body Temperature With Sleeping On Far Infrared Heating Mat

One of the questions in the video is "How long has it been since your last fever?"

Modern Medicine is far too quick to poison children with acetaminophen and ibuprofen just because their immune system is successfully fighting off pathogens.

The much larger concern is that most adults don't get fevers, and that body temperature is chronically low.

Simple Heating Of Tumor Often Leads To A Rapid And Complete Cure

As many readers of my blog know, one of the primary signs/symptoms in cancer patients is the frequent occurrence of fevers. The official position of mainstream medicine is that the cause of these fevers is unknown but may have to do with the so-called "tumor lysis syndrome". Regardless, the...

raypeatforum.com

Cold Temperatures Promote Tumor Growth

Ray has been saying it for years, but here is the latest study (and I think the first admission by mainstream science) that warm-blooded creatures like mice (and humans) do not function well in the cold. http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/11/ ... h-in-mice/...

raypeatforum.com

 

[tankasnowgod]

I think the spore forming probiotics have better survivability, and don't really become active until they hit stomach acid, where they then pass into the intestine and proliferate. I have my doubts about dead bacillus coagulens causing the obvious coagulation I'm seeing, because that is what lactic acid does.

Well again, why not put it to the test for a week or two? Then, you can know for sure.

 

[DANIEL]

1. You can laugh at Haidut's thread title that "All Gut Bacteria Dangerous" all you want, it still doesn't make it inaccurate. Are you aware of the definition of the word "dangerous?" Here's what I get when I type it into Google for a definition-

Adjective, -able or likely to cause harm or injury. Second sense -likely to cause problems or to have adverse consequences.

"All Gut Bacteria Is Potentially Dangerous" would have been a more apt title.

Gut bacteria is not inherently dangerous, but of course, an unhealthy diet and lifestyle can cause overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria (candida) or can irritate the already-present microbiome, for instance.

If you aren't hung up on the word "dangerous," are you claiming that some strains of gut bacteria don't produce endotoxin?

Some strains can actually reduce the LPS response and seal up the gut barrier.

2. Your claim that "no human has ever had a sterile gut" is flat out wrong. Guess you don't know about David Vetter, aka The Bubble Boy?

And he died at 12 years old. "No healthy human has ever had a sterile gut" would have been more accurate.

4. I don't think antibiotics are the only or main factor in gut dysbiosis, certainly not in the US. As a major factor, I would point again to iron in my earlier post, especially supplemental iron like ferrous sulfate. Especially worrisome is the iron found in infant formulas. I think there are benefits to breast milk far beyond bacterial content, maybe even in spite of any bacteria that does appear in breast milk.

I think formula feeding probably one of the major factors in dysbiosis, expecially with so much free iron. 1.8mg in 5fl oz, with no protections like you might get if you ate spinach or beef. Milk (all sorts) has virtually no iron. Infants generally don't need it, they are born iron loaded, which is good, as they "grow" into their iron stores. "Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron" by E.D. Weinberg goes into greater detail about this, and details some of the more horrific experiments where otherwise healthy babies die as a result of getting an injection of Iron Dextran.

Yeah that formula is disgusting, not only does it have iron, it has vegetable oils and soy.

5. C Section is a stressful way to be born. Neither Haidut nor Peat recommend it, and I don't know if it has much to do with the so called "beneficial bacteria of the mother," though I know I have seen that claim elsewhere. Vaginal birth is certainly better in a number of ways. Same thing with Breast Milk, I pointed out the issue with formula, which most parents use as a substitute nowadays. Using cow or goat milk might avoid some of the formula problems, again many which have nothing to do with so called "beneficial bacteria."

The skin-to-skin contact of breastfeeding sends signals from the baby's body to the mother's through saliva, so in addition to the beneficial bacteria strains from the breastmilk (formerly thought to be sterile) the baby is getting more of any specific nutrients that it needs at the time.

6. You shouldn't make assumptions about others. I have been on the "other side," back in my Paleo days. I tried probiotics like Prescript Assist, ate raw potato starch for the Resistant Starch, drank kombucha, even made my own kefir from raw milk, and saurkraut to boot. I'm not really interested in that so much nowadays, and like I said, I have found much better success personally from things like Antibiotics and AC.

I would say that most fermented foods and probiotics are terrible, some probiotic supplements don't even list the strain they used on the label.

For example, two strains of the species Lactobacillus reuteri can be 70% genetically different from one another.

If AC and antibiotics (what kind of antibiotics?) works for you, good for you.

7. You really do seem to be more interested in the concept of the microbiome. That's why I suggested you start a thread. I didn't mean just post a bunch of studies that you didn't read. But a thread, similar to the way Haidut does it, where he posts the study, gives and overview and quotes, and then his own take on it. I think that would be more valuable in general.

Lol, I did start a thread, we're writing in it. I'd rather just post here than adopt haidut's style.

What exactly is your argument? Like haidut, that All Gut Bacteria is dangerous?

If that's what you think, then how far along your journey of achieving a sterile gut do you believe yourself to be?

Everyone can agree on endotoxin being dangerous. Antibiotics can worsen the response to LPS by irritating the microbiome and tearing/weakening the gut barrier which is one-cell thick, if you want proof of that, go read the studies I posted.

First it was "None of the links you posted in the last post are "studies." They appear to be writeups." then "I didn't mean just post a bunch of studies that you didn't read."

 

[Perry Staltic]

Well again, why not put it to the test for a week or two? Then, you can know for sure.

It's not that simple. Occasionally there are swings in output, which would render such a test futile. Every once in a while things will go back to way they used to be for reasons I don't understand. Change in diet? Unperceived inflammatory response? I don't take these things religiously or even daily, but usually when I start taking the stuff again after a change the blessed meatball experience (BME) returns, but not always immediately. I don't really care that much to go to the trouble of nailing down what exactly is going on, even if I could, which I doubt. Too many variables at play. The only thing I'm interested in at the moment is finding the right schedule to perpetuate the BME.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I can't reply to Daniel without getting an error, so I'll do it this way:

"Antibiotics can worsen the response to LPS by irritating the microbiome and tearing/weakening the gut barrier which is one-cell thick, if you want proof of that, go read the studies I posted."

Plus there's the potential for development of antibiotic-resistant pathogenic bacteria in the gut, which really would be a problem. Better to let nature take it's own course with educated help from us along the way.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Plus there's the potential for development of antibiotic-resistant pathogenic bacteria in the gut, which really would be a problem. Better to let nature take it's own course with educated help from us along the way.

I don't think there's any solid proof that antibiotics create "antibiotic resistant bacteria." After reading Weinberg's book, I think it has a lot more to do with the overall health of the host. Iron stores being a big factor. The preface of "Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron" describes the lab experiment where Weinberg discovered that iron can completely inactivate the effects of tetracycline.

So called "Antibiotic Resistant Superbugs" are only found in hospital settings, not in the general public, even though health in general has been declining for the overall populace. This falls in line with the Terrain Theory much better than Germ Theory. It also makes sense. It's much easier to kill a weak colony of 1 million bacteria than a well fed colony of 100 Billion (just making up numbers, but think in terms of that overall ratio). Maybe so called "resistant" bacteria to a dose of 500mg Amoxicillin would be killed off by a 5 or 10 gram dose of Amoxicillin.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I don't think there's any solid proof that antibiotics create "antibiotic resistant bacteria." After reading Weinberg's book, I think it has a lot more to do with the overall health of the host. Iron stores being a big factor. The preface of "Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron" describes the lab experiment where Weinberg discovered that iron can completely inactivate the effects of tetracycline.

So called "Antibiotic Resistant Superbugs" are only found in hospital settings, not in the general public, even though health in general has been declining for the overall populace. This falls in line with the Terrain Theory much better than Germ Theory. It also makes sense. It's much easier to kill a weak colony of 1 million bacteria than a well fed colony of 100 Billion (just making up numbers, but think in terms of that overall ratio). Maybe so called "resistant" bacteria to a dose of 500mg Amoxicillin would be killed off by a 5 or 10 gram dose of Amoxicillin.

Interesting. I definitely give a lot more weight to the Terrain Theory.

 

[tankasnowgod]

@DANIΣL Still getting the error message, so I put your quotes in bold, and my responses in regular font.

"All Gut Bacteria Is Potentially Dangerous" would have been a more apt title.

Gut bacteria is not inherently dangerous, but of course, an unhealthy diet and lifestyle can cause overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria (candida) or can irritate the already-present microbiome, for instance."

So all Haidut had to do to go from writing a ridiculous to accurate title in your opinion was add a superfluous adverb? The concept of "potential" is in the definition of the word "Dangerous."

Or maybe he just needed to add a superfluous and unnecessary adverb.

Some strains can actually reduce the LPS response and seal up the gut barrier.

If you could mention the strains and link to studies that demonstrate this, I'd be interested in looking at them.

Also, maybe you could expand on "LPS Response." Do they lower endotoxin load? Are they TLR4 antagonists?

And he died at 12 years old. "No healthy human has ever had a sterile gut" would have been more accurate.

Does the fact that Vetter died at 12 years old not make him human?

I agree, it was a very extreme treatment, but David Vetter had a very extreme disease- Severe Combined Immunodeficiency, or SCID. He didn't have a working immune system. Most babies born with that condition die before their first birthday (the parents had an earlier child they also named David who suffered that fate). In the context of that disease, living in a totally germ free environment allowed him to live at least 12 times longer than expected. His death was apparently triggered by Epstein-Barr, a virus that's thought to be "mostly benign," which happened with the bone marrow transplant that was supposed to start his immune system. It was a microbe that eventually caused his death, not lack of them.

Most reports are that his physical and mental development were above average-

"Life in a Germ-Free World":: Isolating Life from the Laboratory Animal to the Bubble Boy

This article examines a specific technology, the germ-free "isolator," tracing its development across three sites: (1) the laboratory for the production of standard laboratory animals, (2) agriculture for the efficient production of farm animals, and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Despite, indeed because of, his scientific utility, David posed an acute ethical problem. Without any means of treating David, the only viable option was to do nothing and hope his immune system would begin to work of its own accord.119 Within his isolator David was perfectly healthy, but he was dependent upon it to remain so. In an echo of fictional imaginings of germ-free humans, David was regularly reported as being physically and psychologically highly advanced for his age. The Association for Gnotobiotics Newsletter, for example, described him as "thriving . . . developing an intelligence far above the average and a maturity far beyond his years."

Since his physical and mental development was above average, it doesn't appear that any bacteria offered any sort of special vitamin or nutrient that couldn't be obtained from food (which was itself highly sterilized) or supplements. If anything, they could be a net negative (though probably slight for anyone with a working immune system).

It was harsh psychologically, however. I don't think anyone would choose to be in a fully sterile environment, what was basically a prison. I certainly wouldn't want to be in that environment.

I would say that most fermented foods and probiotics are terrible, some probiotic supplements don't even list the strain they used on the label.

For example, two strains of the species Lactobacillus reuteri can be 70% genetically different from one another.

It's issues like this why I'm not interested in "Microbiome" research all that much. There doesn't seem to be any practical way to use it in your own life. Can't use fermented food, or probiotics to promote certain strains. Prebiotics like resistant starch have the same issues. Can't use antibiotics to get rid of other certain strains. And there doesn't seem to be any measurement of microbial load. You even said in an earlier post that a healthy microbiome is impossible to define.

So there is no real target, and no reliable vehicle to get there. It's a crapshoot.

What exactly is your argument? Like haidut, that All Gut Bacteria is dangerous?

If that's what you think, then how far along your journey of achieving a sterile gut do you believe yourself to be?

Why do you think I'm on a "journey of achieving a sterile gut?" Just because I acknowledge the fact that all gut bacteria are dangerous? I know cars are dangerous, too. I still drive a few times a week.

Having said that, I tend to think a lower microbial load is probably better overall.

I don't have any interest in probiotics at this point, save for the dead one ones that I mentioned in that other thread.

I do use antibiotics sometimes, though it's infrequent. I know antibiotics are dangerous too, but I've seen more benefits from them than detriments. I think they are very useful to have on hand. As I mentioned above, I don't think they are a big factor in "gut dysbiosis." Things like iron fortification, formula feeding as an infant, low stomach acid, body temperature (and especially core or gut temperature) and PUFA, especially from vegetable oils, are much bigger factors, IMO. I do try and use AC once a week. I have some Flowers of Sulfur, too, I think that's useful as an anti-fungal (fungal overgrowth is one of the bigger risks of using antibiotics).

 

[charlie]

@DANIΣL Still getting the error message, so I put your quotes in bold, and my responses in regular font.

This should be fixed now. If anyone still runs into this error please send me a message.

 

[Hairfedup]

Please do.
Even ask your question here so everyone can benefit

First is first a happy new year to each and every one of you. ..sorry its taken so long for me to write out this reply, I've just been so incredibly overwhelmed with life lately, I don't even know where to start. I'll try to keep this as pragmatic as possible and only stick to the major details and if I've missed out anything important please yourself and the rest of the forum let me know. OK so I'll start in the simplest way which is since late October/early November 2019, I've been feeling sick every day. My daily life has completely changed and has essentially been a sort of lockdown before 'the pandemic' ever hit. I'm male, 28 years old. So I'll start with the daily symptoms which from what I've read, and I started as a complete layman, are associated with some sort of gut/intestinal bacteria etc:

- Nausea, heavy for the first 6-8 months, now much lighter (I'll get on to this further down)
- Heart palpitations daily, really annoying.
-Chest, stomach, back pains
- Reflux [although this is relatively new, seems without this symptoms my GP wouldn't even take me seriously at all]
- Massive hit to my cognitive abilities and the worst is of course my memory has been completely obliterate, the names of places, things, people have just vanished and I have to concentrate extremely hard just to remember things that would come to me so easily before this started. This has effected my job [I'm an academic researcher] and my hobbies etc quizzing. I'm only putting down these details to sort of clarify how my mind has just become putty. The other day I couldn't spell the name 'Michael'.
- Burping upwards of 200 times a day (this was in the first 3-4 months).
- Loss of strength, really quite drastic as I was quite strong before (some episodes involve even plates of food being heavy for my hands/arms for weeks at a time]
- Loss of muscle, very noticeable to friends and family so really quite visible although I've gained weight. My glutes which were very well developed have almost disappeared and my chest muscle has also vanished leaving me with 'moobs' but not gyno.
- Chest pains have gotten worse and worse to the point I thought I had a stroke, vibrating shivers down my arms and hamstrings etc after one particularly bad night last month.
- An awful feeling of fullness in my throat, can last weeks then disappear and return
- Need to urinate less than 30-40mins after drinking; this has been quite shocking as I was able to 'hold' on a 14 hour flight with no problems [not ideal obviously but just trying to paint a picture of who I was before]
- My bowels have completely changed I don't even know how to describe it, originally my colon/rectum etc was tight [lol] but now feel completely loose, bowels were clean i.e. barely anything to wipe, now very messy leading on to the next point
- My pelvic floor etc is now very weak in keeping with the above and my erections are terrible [ i thought it was the cigarettes but quitting for 1-2 weeks did nothing]
- Sometimes my stomach feels like its literally doing backflips when I'm in bed, I wake up in the night with my whole body shaking eminating from the vibrations in my stomach.
- Stomach aches (developed in the latter half of the year)
- Dry mouth and lips at all times
- Stabbing pains in hands and arms, hit a crescendo with the chest pain/attack situation I described above
- Stomach pains of course, although little to no diarrhea, although I am prone to bouts of gastrointestinitis from food that agrees fine with my family.
-Kidney pains?
-Easily exhausted muscles and lactic acid feelings. Sometimes very strong.
-Essentially I feel like I'm living in someone else's body - the changes have been so sudden and shocking.


As such I haven't been able to do much at all this year, the pandemic made no real difference. This is all exasperate by the extreme stress I've been under (living with my suicidal sister and being her sole councillor shortly before the symptoms began) and now my idiot estranged family members who come from awful boundary-less cultures harassing me and pushing me to the point of probable [redaracted]. My own GP, coming from a nonsense boundary-less third world culture, after a year of complaints had the nerve to call me an idiot in his language believing that I was too westernized to understand what was said. The lack of boundaries is infuriating but I digress, apologies. The NHS have been useless and only now have I been put on a waiting list to see a gastro specialist, after a whole year but alas I don't want to sound like I'm moaning, I'm just at the edge.

Prior to all of this I could eat anything and everything, truly. I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging but really, there was nothing I couldn't eat. My only health problem was my premature balding. Obviously not ideal but since losing my hair at 20-21 [after heavily stressful situations] never really had any problems aside from contracting dengue fever 5 years ago from which I miraculously recovered (doctors believed I would have started internal haemorrhaging), and bacterial tonsilitis involving a lot of coughing up blood I contracted in the tropics (Indonesia). I can't remember the antibiotics I was administered for this. Other than this my life has just been very stressful, but things were going well up until now in terms of the fact I felt fantastic the vast majority of the time, loved swimming, football, dancing. Haven't been able to do much, exercise even gentle seems to make me feel worse for reasons I can't quite understand.

So how did the symptoms start? Suddenly and rapidly. I was living in South-East Asia, a place I'd frequently visited for years and years eating all kinds of street food etc, but never really had any serious issues aside from some bouts of gastrointestinitis. I remember smoking a Chinese cigarette for the first time after a meal and suddenly felt horrible. I thought it must have been the cigarette, but the symptoms persisted. And never went away. The entire situation has made be become obsessive and examining my background and what may have lead for me to be in this situation. Then I remembered (albeit not very well because like I said my memory is completely shot):

Starting in late 2017, in a vain attempt to regrow my hair etc like many others, I started taking massive amounts of coconut oil, sauerkraut and what I believe worst of all, a brand of Malaysian PROBIOTICS I was picking up at a pharmacy there. I distantly remember this concoction making me feel very similar (in terms of the nausea and general dis-ease, as well as stomach pain) to how I've felt over this last year. Unfortunately I can't even remember what probiotics these were, although I'm hoping my brother has kept a bottle at his place somewhere if any of you think that would help? The last time I posted about my issues I was told it was possibly SIBO, but my doctors completely rubbished that idea.

So what have I been doing to manage symptoms? After a long time and trial and error I've been on a steady diet of aspirin, gelatin (without gelatin the nausea can be intense BUT after a year the gelatin is now giving me alarming chest pain), and vitamin K2. I've only just learned about activated charcoal but I'm so worried about hurting myself more I'm not sure how and when to take it. This hasn't been perfect but my quality of life has atleast improved a lot since the first 6 months. A major turning point was when I was some Fluxocillin in my house...only 12 tabs or so. I took a tab every night for 12 days, and most of symptoms halved. However, my GP tells me I have a damaged liver and it seems certainly to be the case from the Fluxocillin...I have another test next week although another member suggested to me that three days of Niacimide should fix the liver issue entirely (they too took Fluxocillin).

Now I feel I've found some hope [I've been praying so hard] the stack of antibiotics you suggested seem right up my street but I felt I needed some sort of confirmation. Thankfully another user also suggested how to get my hands on said antibiotics, truly I can't put into words how much hope this forum gives me and just...I really appreciate every little suggestion, you all help me so greatly without even knowing.

Last thing is I smoke cigarettes, american spirit for what its worth. I'm sure they make me feel worse but I've been so down its been very hard to quit. If any of you were to tell me that it is invariably making things worse, your esteemed opinions would be the only thing I think that can get me to give up immediately. I'm really sorry for the long post that's almost stream of conscious like, I'm just struggling heavily. Would appreciate any and every insight into the matter.

edit: I have a lovely mother who has changed the ingredients she cooks with and at the moment we have almost zero PUFA, I think, and everything is cooked in ghee or butter. anything else, I mean anything deep fried, like a burger I recently tried idiotically, almost killed me if not for aspirin/gelatin.

edit 2: it was malaysian PROBIOTICS not antibiotics, really important mistake i almost didn't catch!

Thank you all so much,
Ali

 

[Ben.]

First is first a happy new year to each and every one of you. ..sorry its taken so long for me to write out this reply, I've just been so incredibly overwhelmed with life lately, I don't even know where to start. I'll try to keep this as pragmatic as possible and only stick to the major details and if I've missed out anything important please yourself and the rest of the forum let me know. OK so I'll start in the simplest way which is since late October/early November 2019, I've been feeling sick every day. My daily life has completely changed and has essentially been a sort of lockdown before 'the pandemic' ever hit. I'm male, 28 years old. So I'll start with the daily symptoms which from what I've read, and I started as a complete layman, are associated with some sort of gut/intestinal bacteria etc:

- Nausea, heavy for the first 6-8 months, now much lighter (I'll get on to this further down)
- Heart palpitations daily, really annoying.
-Chest, stomach, back pains
- Reflux [although this is relatively new, seems without this symptoms my GP wouldn't even take me seriously at all]
- Massive hit to my cognitive abilities and the worst is of course my memory has been completely obliterate, the names of places, things, people have just vanished and I have to concentrate extremely hard just to remember things that would come to me so easily before this started. This has effected my job [I'm an academic researcher] and my hobbies etc quizzing. I'm only putting down these details to sort of clarify how my mind has just become putty. The other day I couldn't spell the name 'Michael'.
- Burping upwards of 200 times a day (this was in the first 3-4 months).
- Loss of strength, really quite drastic as I was quite strong before (some episodes involve even plates of food being heavy for my hands/arms for weeks at a time]
- Loss of muscle, very noticeable to friends and family so really quite visible although I've gained weight. My glutes which were very well developed have almost disappeared and my chest muscle has also vanished leaving me with 'moobs' but not gyno.
- Chest pains have gotten worse and worse to the point I thought I had a stroke, vibrating shivers down my arms and hamstrings etc after one particularly bad night last month.
- Need to urinate less than 30-40mins after drinking; this has been quite shocking as I was able to 'hold' on a 14 hour flight with no problems [not ideal obviously but just trying to paint a picture of who I was before]
- My bowels have completely changed I don't even know how to describe it, originally my colon/rectum etc was tight [lol] but now feel completely loose, bowels were clean i.e. barely anything to wipe, now very messy leading on to the next point
- My pelvic floor etc is now very weak in keeping with the above and my erections are terrible [ i thought it was the cigarettes but quitting for 1-2 weeks did nothing]
- Sometimes my stomach feels like its literally doing backflips when I'm in bed, I wake up in the night with my whole body shaking eminating from the vibrations in my stomach.
- Stomach aches (developed in the latter half of the year)
- Dry mouth and lips at all times
- Stabbing pains in hands and arms, hit a crescendo with the chest pain/attack situation I described above
- Stomach pains of course, although little to no diarrhea, although I am prone to bouts of gastrointestinitis from food that agrees fine with my family.
-Kidney pains?
-Easily exhausted muscles and lactic acid feelings. Sometimes very strong.
-Essentially I feel like I'm living in someone else's body - the changes have been so sudden and shocking.


As such I haven't been able to do much at all this year, the pandemic made no real difference. This is all exasperate by the extreme stress I've been under (living with my suicidal sister and being her sole councillor shortly before the symptoms began) and now my idiot estranged family members who come from awful boundary-less cultures harassing me and pushing me to the point of probable [redaracted]. My own GP, coming from a nonsense boundary-less third world culture, after a year of complaints had the nerve to call me an idiot in his language believing that I was too westernized to understand what was said. The lack of boundaries is infuriating but I digress, apologies. The NHS have been useless and only now have I been put on a waiting list to see a gastro specialist, after a whole year but alas I don't want to sound like I'm moaning, I'm just at the edge.

Prior to all of this I could eat anything and everything, truly. I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging but really, there was nothing I couldn't eat. My only health problem was my premature balding. Obviously not ideal but since losing my hair at 20-21 [after heavily stressful situations] never really had any problems aside from contracting dengue fever 5 years ago from which I miraculously recovered (doctors believed I would have started internal haemorrhaging), and bacterial tonsilitis involving a lot of coughing up blood I contracted in the tropics (Indonesia). I can't remember the antibiotics I was administered for this. Other than this my life has just been very stressful, but things were going well up until now in terms of the fact I felt fantastic the vast majority of the time, loved swimming, football, dancing. Haven't been able to do much, exercise even gentle seems to make me feel worse for reasons I can't quite understand.

So how did the symptoms start? Suddenly and rapidly. I was living in South-East Asia, a place I'd frequently visited for years and years eating all kinds of street food etc, but never really had any serious issues aside from some bouts of gastrointestinitis. I remember smoking a Chinese cigarette for the first time after a meal and suddenly felt horrible. I thought it must have been the cigarette, but the symptoms persisted. And never went away. The entire situation has made be become obsessive and examining my background and what may have lead for me to be in this situation. Then I remembered (albeit not very well because like I said my memory is completely shot):

Starting in late 2017, in a vain attempt to regrow my hair etc like many others, I started taking massive amounts of coconut oil, sauerkraut and what I believe worst of all, a brand of Malaysian antibiotics I was picking up at a pharmacy there. I distantly remember this concoction making me feel very similar (in terms of the nausea and general dis-ease, as well as stomach pain) to how I've felt over this last year. Unfortunately I can't even remember what probiotics these were, although I'm hoping my brother has kept a bottle at his place somewhere if any of you think that would help? The last time I posted about my issues I was told it was possibly SIBO, but my doctors completely rubbished that idea.

So what have I been doing to manage symptoms? After a long time and trial and error I've been on a steady diet of aspirin, gelatin (without gelatin the nausea can be intense BUT after a year the gelatin is now giving me alarming chest pain), and vitamin K2. I've only just learned about activated charcoal but I'm so worried about hurting myself more I'm not sure how and when to take it. This hasn't been perfect but my quality of life has atleast improved a lot since the first 6 months. A major turning point was when I was some Fluxocillin in my house...only 12 tabs or so. I took a tab every night for 12 days, and most of symptoms halved. However, my GP tells me I have a damaged liver and it seems certainly to be the case from the Fluxocillin...I have another test next week although another member suggested to me that three days of Niacimide should fix the liver issue entirely (they too took Fluxocillin).

Now I feel I've found some hope [I've been praying so hard] the stack of antibiotics you suggested seem right up my street but I felt I needed some sort of confirmation. Thankfully another user also suggested how to get my hands on said antibiotics, truly I can't put into words how much hope this forum gives me and just...I really appreciate every little suggestion, you all help me so greatly without even knowing.

Last thing is I smoke cigarettes, american spirit for what its worth. I'm sure they make me feel worse but I've been so down its been very hard to quit. If any of you were to tell me that it is invariably making things worse, your esteemed opinions would be the only thing I think that can get me to give up immediately. I'm really sorry for the long post that's almost stream of conscious like, I'm just struggling heavily. Would appreciate any and every insight into the matter.

edit: I have a lovely mother who has changed the ingredients she cooks with and at the moment we have almost zero PUFA, I think, and everything is cooked in ghee or butter. anything else, I mean anything deep fried, like a burger I recently tried idiotically, almost killed me if not for aspirin/gelatin.

Thank you all so much,
Ali

Hey man,

while i can't give you directions in what to do, i atleast want to tell you even if it may not hold much weight or help to you, that you are not the only one. You are not alone in this. Alot of what you are describing resonated alot with me. Having people that are supposed to help you not believing you, not taking you seriously and seem to not be able to comprehend the severity of what is happening here and what the ultimate consequenz of it will be ... i feel you. You are here, you are trying to take care of yourself.

You said it started to get realy bad with that cigarette... i wonder what was in there. But i think these issues usually start alot earlier, in far more subtle ways adn that big moment with that cigarette was just a dam finally breaking. It may just be my opinion, one that may be false, but i see balding as a healthmarker and that something is not right.

Perhaps reduce the amount of k2, if it stopped helping, you might want to reevaluate how and how much you use it. Which one are you using? MK1 or MK4 or MK7? A mix?
Have you tried nicotinamide/niacin already and if so, how did that go? Perhaps use a low dosed b complex with it so you are not depleting urself of certain cofactors (one user reported serious issues if he didnt consume another b vitamin along niacin)

Haidut posted alot of research showing aspirin can help with certain liver issues (i think it was mostly about cancer...), but you said you take it already ... mhhhh

I can't realy tell you what to do in hair loss, im constantly losing but also regrowing hair. Like a constant up and down hill battle. There is some indication that it could be caused by fungi. There is a thread which didn't get much attention but one person claiming potassium bicarbonate regrow his hair. I personally had some succes with scalp health by using aloe vera high quality drinking gel applied to my scalp over night before i wash them in the morning based on a recommendation from the long time user here with the white rat as profile picture ...

I know your response was meant for the beard, either way i wish you the best. Hang in there. Science is advancing and there is already alot of stuff available to test and figure out. Let's not forget there are people who did regrow their hair, that did get rid of their chronic health issues. Why shouldn't we?