If There's Bacteria in Human Breastmilk, Why Do Haidut and Peat Push the Sterile Gut Nonsense?

[RealNeat]

@DANIΣL Here are my responses to your most recent message.

1. You can laugh at Haidut's thread title that "All Gut Bacteria Dangerous" all you want, it still doesn't make it inaccurate. Are you aware of the definition of the word "dangerous?" Here's what I get when I type it into Google for a definition-

Adjective, -able or likely to cause harm or injury. Second sense -likely to cause problems or to have adverse consequences.

Hmmmm. Based on those definitions, and the content of the thread, it would appear accurate. Replacing the word you're hung up on with the definition, we get "All Gut Bacteria able or likely to cause harm or injury" or "All Gut Bacteria likely to cause problems or to have adverse consequences." Both statements are accurate in the context, especially when he spells out how they are dangerous in the second part of the title (by their production of endotoxin causing liver cancer). He didn't say "Acutely Lethal," which would have been wrong. Basically, gut bacteria are dangerous in the same way plaque in the arteries are dangerous.

If you aren't hung up on the word "dangerous," are you claiming that some strains of gut bacteria don't produce endotoxin?

2. Your claim that "no human has ever had a sterile gut" is flat out wrong. Guess you don't know about David Vetter, aka The Bubble Boy?



More practically, Haidut has cited the example of humans that are on long term antibiotics for things like Lyme Disease, that develop a Sterile (or 99% Sterile) Gut as a side effect of the treatment. Those would be more applicable, as basically no one would choose to live in an isolater like Vetter did, and certainly can't do so retroactively since their birth.

3. I agree that antibiotics should be approached with caution, although I wouldn't go so far as to say "last resort." I do think some of the dangers of antibiotics are overblown. Note the use of the word "danger." That said, I think antibiotics are dangerous too, hence why I said caution in the first sentence of this part.

4. I don't think antibiotics are the only or main factor in gut dysbiosis, certainly not in the US. As a major factor, I would point again to iron in my earlier post, especially supplemental iron like ferrous sulfate. Especially worrisome is the iron found in infant formulas. I think there are benefits to breast milk far beyond bacterial content, maybe even in spite of any bacteria that does appear in breast milk.

I think formula feeding probably one of the major factors in dysbiosis, expecially with so much free iron. 1.8mg in 5fl oz, with no protections like you might get if you ate spinach or beef. Milk (all sorts) has virtually no iron. Infants generally don't need it, they are born iron loaded, which is good, as they "grow" into their iron stores. "Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron" by E.D. Weinberg goes into greater detail about this, and details some of the more horrific experiments where otherwise healthy babies die as a result of getting an injection of Iron Dextran.

View attachment 20726

5. C Section is a stressful way to be born. Neither Haidut nor Peat recommend it, and I don't know if it has much to do with the so called "beneficial bacteria of the mother," though I know I have seen that claim elsewhere. Vaginal birth is certainly better in a number of ways. Same thing with Breast Milk, I pointed out the issue with formula, which most parents use as a substitute nowadays. Using cow or goat milk might avoid some of the formula problems, again many which have nothing to do with so called "beneficial bacteria."

6. You shouldn't make assumptions about others. I have been on the "other side," back in my Paleo days. I tried probiotics like Prescript Assist, ate raw potato starch for the Resistant Starch, drank kombucha, even made my own kefir from raw milk, and saurkraut to boot. I'm not really interested in that so much nowadays, and like I said, I have found much better success personally from things like Antibiotics and AC.

7. You really do seem to be more interested in the concept of the microbiome. That's why I suggested you start a thread. I didn't mean just post a bunch of studies that you didn't read. But a thread, similar to the way Haidut does it, where he posts the study, gives and overview and quotes, and then his own take on it. I think that would be more valuable in general.

By the way, did you look at my thread on how Peat talks about the benefits of lactobacillus bacteria to the gut....... even if the organism is dead? Posting again here in case you missed it-

Probiotics- Better Off Dead. (And More Effective!)

One of the ideas of Ray Peat's that seems to run counter to both the mainstream and alternative health world is that bacteria in the GI tract is NOT beneficial, in general. Peat has said that there are some strains of bacteria that are less harmful than others, and even can produce some...

raypeatforum.com

Here's the clip that leads it off, you should at least listen to this part-

Have you researched the Shikimate pathway?

 

[RealNeat]

I don't think there's any solid proof that antibiotics create "antibiotic resistant bacteria." After reading Weinberg's book, I think it has a lot more to do with the overall health of the host. Iron stores being a big factor. The preface of "Exposing the Hidden Dangers of Iron" describes the lab experiment where Weinberg discovered that iron can completely inactivate the effects of tetracycline.

So called "Antibiotic Resistant Superbugs" are only found in hospital settings, not in the general public, even though health in general has been declining for the overall populace. This falls in line with the Terrain Theory much better than Germ Theory. It also makes sense. It's much easier to kill a weak colony of 1 million bacteria than a well fed colony of 100 Billion (just making up numbers, but think in terms of that overall ratio). Maybe so called "resistant" bacteria to a dose of 500mg Amoxicillin would be killed off by a 5 or 10 gram dose of Amoxicillin.

What about horizontal gene transfer? that seems like a process developed purely for threats like antibiotics. That is the most logical reason for antiB resistance imo.

 

[Hairfedup]

Hey man,

while i can't give you directions in what to do, i atleast want to tell you even if it may not hold much weight or help to you, that you are not the only one. You are not alone in this. Alot of what you are describing resonated alot with me. Having people that are supposed to help you not believing you, not taking you seriously and seem to not be able to comprehend the severity of what is happening here and what the ultimate consequenz of it will be ... i feel you. You are here, you are trying to take care of yourself.

You said it started to get realy bad with that cigarette... i wonder what was in there. But i think these issues usually start alot earlier, in far more subtle ways adn that big moment with that cigarette was just a dam finally breaking. It may just be my opinion, one that may be false, but i see balding as a healthmarker and that something is not right.

Perhaps reduce the amount of k2, if it stopped helping, you might want to reevaluate how and how much you use it. Which one are you using? MK1 or MK4 or MK7? A mix?
Have you tried nicotinamide/niacin already and if so, how did that go? Perhaps use a low dosed b complex with it so you are not depleting urself of certain cofactors (one user reported serious issues if he didnt consume another b vitamin along niacin)

Haidut posted alot of research showing aspirin can help with certain liver issues (i think it was mostly about cancer...), but you said you take it already ... mhhhh

I can't realy tell you what to do in hair loss, im constantly losing but also regrowing hair. Like a constant up and down hill battle. There is some indication that it could be caused by fungi. There is a thread which didn't get much attention but one person claiming potassium bicarbonate regrow his hair. I personally had some succes with scalp health by using aloe vera high quality drinking gel applied to my scalp over night before i wash them in the morning based on a recommendation from the long time user here with the white rat as profile picture ...

I know your response was meant for the beard, either way i wish you the best. Hang in there. Science is advancing and there is already alot of stuff available to test and figure out. Let's not forget there are people who did regrow their hair, that did get rid of their chronic health issues. Why shouldn't we?

Bro! Thank you so much for such a kind response, I posted it here so others may see also and it does help to know that a person isn't alone. I take the, wow I actually can't remember the name and I just was looking at the bottle, life extension? I take that combination of k2 and i haven't tried any niacins etc yet haha. I've only really upped the aspirin (sort of due to necessity really) since my last diagnosis so lets see maybe my liver will be fine next week!

Only God knows what was in that chinese cigarette (double happiness brand, ironically lol) but those unregulated loosies could have anything in them and I guess sort of just pushed me over the edge. To be honest I had a bout of sickness for around a month in the summer before it all started (oct-nov '19) which was definitely gastrointestinal, sort of pressure in my neck and head after eating and the nausea as well as a range of other symptoms, and as usual it passed - only to resurface a few months later and here I am.

Thank you for the suggestions but at this point honestly I don't care about my hair anymore or any other pursuits of vanity, it still hurts like it does for most bald men but I just want to feel alive again, like myself really. Appreciate you taking the time out to respond, much love brother.

 

[Roni123@]

What is the best antibiotic for reset intestine

 

[Hairfedup]

First is first a happy new year to each and every one of you. ..sorry its taken so long for me to write out this reply, I've just been so incredibly overwhelmed with life lately, I don't even know where to start. I'll try to keep this as pragmatic as possible and only stick to the major details and if I've missed out anything important please yourself and the rest of the forum let me know. OK so I'll start in the simplest way which is since late October/early November 2019, I've been feeling sick every day. My daily life has completely changed and has essentially been a sort of lockdown before 'the pandemic' ever hit. I'm male, 28 years old. So I'll start with the daily symptoms which from what I've read, and I started as a complete layman, are associated with some sort of gut/intestinal bacteria etc:

- Nausea, heavy for the first 6-8 months, now much lighter (I'll get on to this further down)
- Heart palpitations daily, really annoying.
-Chest, stomach, back pains
- Reflux [although this is relatively new, seems without this symptoms my GP wouldn't even take me seriously at all]
- Massive hit to my cognitive abilities and the worst is of course my memory has been completely obliterate, the names of places, things, people have just vanished and I have to concentrate extremely hard just to remember things that would come to me so easily before this started. This has effected my job [I'm an academic researcher] and my hobbies etc quizzing. I'm only putting down these details to sort of clarify how my mind has just become putty. The other day I couldn't spell the name 'Michael'.
- Burping upwards of 200 times a day (this was in the first 3-4 months).
- Loss of strength, really quite drastic as I was quite strong before (some episodes involve even plates of food being heavy for my hands/arms for weeks at a time]
- Loss of muscle, very noticeable to friends and family so really quite visible although I've gained weight. My glutes which were very well developed have almost disappeared and my chest muscle has also vanished leaving me with 'moobs' but not gyno.
- Chest pains have gotten worse and worse to the point I thought I had a stroke, vibrating shivers down my arms and hamstrings etc after one particularly bad night last month.
- An awful feeling of fullness in my throat, can last weeks then disappear and return
- Need to urinate less than 30-40mins after drinking; this has been quite shocking as I was able to 'hold' on a 14 hour flight with no problems [not ideal obviously but just trying to paint a picture of who I was before]
- My bowels have completely changed I don't even know how to describe it, originally my colon/rectum etc was tight [lol] but now feel completely loose, bowels were clean i.e. barely anything to wipe, now very messy leading on to the next point
- My pelvic floor etc is now very weak in keeping with the above and my erections are terrible [ i thought it was the cigarettes but quitting for 1-2 weeks did nothing]
- Sometimes my stomach feels like its literally doing backflips when I'm in bed, I wake up in the night with my whole body shaking eminating from the vibrations in my stomach.
- Stomach aches (developed in the latter half of the year)
- Dry mouth and lips at all times
- Stabbing pains in hands and arms, hit a crescendo with the chest pain/attack situation I described above
- Stomach pains of course, although little to no diarrhea, although I am prone to bouts of gastrointestinitis from food that agrees fine with my family.
-Kidney pains?
-Easily exhausted muscles and lactic acid feelings. Sometimes very strong.
-Essentially I feel like I'm living in someone else's body - the changes have been so sudden and shocking.


As such I haven't been able to do much at all this year, the pandemic made no real difference. This is all exasperate by the extreme stress I've been under (living with my suicidal sister and being her sole councillor shortly before the symptoms began) and now my idiot estranged family members who come from awful boundary-less cultures harassing me and pushing me to the point of probable [redaracted]. My own GP, coming from a nonsense boundary-less third world culture, after a year of complaints had the nerve to call me an idiot in his language believing that I was too westernized to understand what was said. The lack of boundaries is infuriating but I digress, apologies. The NHS have been useless and only now have I been put on a waiting list to see a gastro specialist, after a whole year but alas I don't want to sound like I'm moaning, I'm just at the edge.

Prior to all of this I could eat anything and everything, truly. I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging but really, there was nothing I couldn't eat. My only health problem was my premature balding. Obviously not ideal but since losing my hair at 20-21 [after heavily stressful situations] never really had any problems aside from contracting dengue fever 5 years ago from which I miraculously recovered (doctors believed I would have started internal haemorrhaging), and bacterial tonsilitis involving a lot of coughing up blood I contracted in the tropics (Indonesia). I can't remember the antibiotics I was administered for this. Other than this my life has just been very stressful, but things were going well up until now in terms of the fact I felt fantastic the vast majority of the time, loved swimming, football, dancing. Haven't been able to do much, exercise even gentle seems to make me feel worse for reasons I can't quite understand.

So how did the symptoms start? Suddenly and rapidly. I was living in South-East Asia, a place I'd frequently visited for years and years eating all kinds of street food etc, but never really had any serious issues aside from some bouts of gastrointestinitis. I remember smoking a Chinese cigarette for the first time after a meal and suddenly felt horrible. I thought it must have been the cigarette, but the symptoms persisted. And never went away. The entire situation has made be become obsessive and examining my background and what may have lead for me to be in this situation. Then I remembered (albeit not very well because like I said my memory is completely shot):

Starting in late 2017, in a vain attempt to regrow my hair etc like many others, I started taking massive amounts of coconut oil, sauerkraut and what I believe worst of all, a brand of Malaysian PROBIOTICS I was picking up at a pharmacy there. I distantly remember this concoction making me feel very similar (in terms of the nausea and general dis-ease, as well as stomach pain) to how I've felt over this last year. Unfortunately I can't even remember what probiotics these were, although I'm hoping my brother has kept a bottle at his place somewhere if any of you think that would help? The last time I posted about my issues I was told it was possibly SIBO, but my doctors completely rubbished that idea.

So what have I been doing to manage symptoms? After a long time and trial and error I've been on a steady diet of aspirin, gelatin (without gelatin the nausea can be intense BUT after a year the gelatin is now giving me alarming chest pain), and vitamin K2. I've only just learned about activated charcoal but I'm so worried about hurting myself more I'm not sure how and when to take it. This hasn't been perfect but my quality of life has atleast improved a lot since the first 6 months. A major turning point was when I was some Fluxocillin in my house...only 12 tabs or so. I took a tab every night for 12 days, and most of symptoms halved. However, my GP tells me I have a damaged liver and it seems certainly to be the case from the Fluxocillin...I have another test next week although another member suggested to me that three days of Niacimide should fix the liver issue entirely (they too took Fluxocillin).

Now I feel I've found some hope [I've been praying so hard] the stack of antibiotics you suggested seem right up my street but I felt I needed some sort of confirmation. Thankfully another user also suggested how to get my hands on said antibiotics, truly I can't put into words how much hope this forum gives me and just...I really appreciate every little suggestion, you all help me so greatly without even knowing.

Last thing is I smoke cigarettes, american spirit for what its worth. I'm sure they make me feel worse but I've been so down its been very hard to quit. If any of you were to tell me that it is invariably making things worse, your esteemed opinions would be the only thing I think that can get me to give up immediately. I'm really sorry for the long post that's almost stream of conscious like, I'm just struggling heavily. Would appreciate any and every insight into the matter.

edit: I have a lovely mother who has changed the ingredients she cooks with and at the moment we have almost zero PUFA, I think, and everything is cooked in ghee or butter. anything else, I mean anything deep fried, like a burger I recently tried idiotically, almost killed me if not for aspirin/gelatin.

edit 2: it was malaysian PROBIOTICS not antibiotics, really important mistake i almost didn't catch!

Thank you all so much,
Ali

Just bumping this, hoping I can get some resolution as I'm hesitant to try the antibiotic stack but I'm at the end of my tether so I am willing, would love to hear what any of you have to say on the matter. the user 'rei' has mentioned fascial damage which I think I may very well be suffering from due to a horrible posture [extreme spine curvature I inherited from my grandmother's people lol]. still I would rather go the antibiotic/charcoal etc route. I know it seems as if what am i waiting for? But i just would really appreciate any input from your esteemed opinions, all of you i.e. the beard, tankasnowgod anyone and everyone. thank you!

 

[mrchibbs]

Just bumping this, hoping I can get some resolution as I'm hesitant to try the antibiotic stack but I'm at the end of my tether so I am willing, would love to hear what any of you have to say on the matter. the user 'rei' has mentioned fascial damage which I think I may very well be suffering from due to a horrible posture [extreme spine curvature I inherited from my grandmother's people lol]. still I would rather go the antibiotic/charcoal etc route. I know it seems as if what am i waiting for? But i just would really appreciate any input from your esteemed opinions, all of you i.e. the beard, tankasnowgod anyone and everyone. thank you!

You really need a course of antibiotics, followed by a really good probiotic product like Florassist or Megaspore (Danny Roddy talks about it in his latest stream #44)

Can you get access to good safe antibiotics like penicilin, erythromycin and/or minocycline ? Niacinamide, methylene blue, aspirin, carrot salad all help but in your case you need a larger intervention, and your symptoms absolutely stem from your gut.

 

[Hairfedup]

You really need a course of antibiotics, followed by a really good probiotic product like Florassist or Megaspore (Danny Roddy talks about it in his latest stream #44)

Can you get access to good safe antibiotics like penicilin, erythromycin and/or minocycline ? Niacinamide, methylene blue, aspirin, carrot salad all help but in your case you need a larger intervention, and your symptoms absolutely stem from your gut.

Thank you so much for the response, truly. Its a weight of my shoulders having someone actually confirm that it is a gut issue - my GPs and even my close friend who is a junior doctor, have gaslit me to the extreme.

In terms of access to antibiotics I'm not so sure, a user here suggested some Mexican online pharamcies that would ship to the UK so this is most likely the route I would have to go. My friend unfortunately is not willing to acquire medication for me as he 1. think's I'm exaggerating and need PPIs 2. believes it to be too risky. I've asked my brother to ask his colleagues if anyone knows where and how to acquire the medications, seems like a longshot but anything is possible in Asia, haha. Lord knows I'm ready for an intervention, this last year has been hell.

Thanks again,
Ali

 

[mrchibbs]

No worries, we have similar experiences and I could relate to many things you are going through.

If you can't get access to antibiotics readily, I would recommend trying this product:

FLORASSIST® GI with Phage Technology, 30 liquid vegetarian capsules - Life Extension

FLORASSIST® GI is LE’s best formula for probiotic benefits. Its dual-encapsulation stays intact until it gets to the intestine, where it’s most effective.

www.lifeextension.com

Rays has recommended it in the past as an OTC ''fill-in'' for antibiotics, it can target unwanted bacteria and might bring you relief.

It's sad these days we have to take matters into our own hands because doctors are not helpful for the most part.

 

[Hairfedup]

No worries, we have similar experiences and I could relate to many things you are going through.

If you can't get access to antibiotics readily, I would recommend trying this product:

FLORASSIST® GI with Phage Technology, 30 liquid vegetarian capsules - Life Extension

FLORASSIST® GI is LE’s best formula for probiotic benefits. Its dual-encapsulation stays intact until it gets to the intestine, where it’s most effective.

www.lifeextension.com

Rays has recommended it in the past as an OTC ''fill-in'' for antibiotics, it can target unwanted bacteria and might bring you relief.

It's sad these days we have to take matters into our own hands because doctors are not helpful for the most part.

Amazing I'll definitely order that, hopefully everything works out with the antibiotics but I'm still quite unsure as what to use, and how i.e. simultaneously or the protocols one should follow when on antibiotics..sorry I've just become so weary and so everything feel's hesitant.

The Beard earlier in the thread mentioned he took Augmentin, Doxycycline and Azithromycin. tankasnowgod said penicillin I believe. and ofc you've kindly recommended penicilin, erythromycin and/or minocycline. So I'm quite confused but also for the first time I feel hope. I trust you so ideally with the penicilin, erythromycin + minocycline would these be taken together? For how long, dosage and what kind of protocol? and then follow it on with florassist? Sorry for so many questions.

 

[mrchibbs]

Amazing I'll definitely order that, hopefully everything works out with the antibiotics but I'm still quite unsure as what to use, and how i.e. simultaneously or the protocols one should follow when on antibiotics..sorry I've just become so weary and so everything feel's hesitant.

The Beard earlier in the thread mentioned he took Augmentin, Doxycycline and Azithromycin. tankasnowgod said penicillin I believe. and ofc you've kindly recommended penicilin, erythromycin and/or minocycline. So I'm quite confused but also for the first time I feel hope. I trust you so ideally with the penicilin, erythromycin + minocycline would these be taken together? For how long, dosage and what kind of protocol? and then follow it on with florassist? Sorry for so many questions.

I'm not an expert on antibiotics, I try to use what I can find and what is safest, because they are all toxic to an extent. I recommend keeping it simple, a 10 day course of penicilin 125mg (half a 400000UI tablet) every 6-8hours should help you. Danny Roddy says he stacked many of them together, I think Ray has done that too.

But it can also be a shorter therapy, here is a quote from Ray:

‘'If you have a big intestinal mass of putrid material, it can take 2-3 days before moderate doses of penicilin can kill that off.’'

Judge it by your symptoms, if after 3-4 days you feel good, then you can jump into the florassist, and use the carrot salad as well.

If not, maybe you need to go longer (full 10 days) or choose another one.

Bottomline, if I were you I would find the safest antibiotics (proven track record) you can find, maybe get 2 types if you're able, and experiment until you feel better. Then use florassist to help your gut health and restore a suitable flora.

After that, you need to dial everything, good sleep, sun exposure, low stress, good food, carrot salad, mushrooms etc. All these things can modulate gut flora.

 

[Hairfedup]

I'm not an expert on antibiotics, I try to use what I can find and what is safest, because they are all toxic to an extent. I recommend keeping it simple, a 10 day course of penicilin 125mg (half a 400000UI tablet) every 6-8hours should help you. Danny Roddy says he stacked many of them together, I think Ray has done that too.

But it can also be a shorter therapy, here is a quote from Ray:



Judge it by your symptoms, if after 3-4 days you feel good, then you can jump into the florassist, and use the carrot salad as well.

If not, maybe you need to go longer (full 10 days) or choose another one.

Bottomline, if I were you I would find the safest antibiotics (proven track record) you can find, maybe get 2 types if you're able, and experiment until you feel better. Then use florassist to help your gut health and restore a suitable flora.

After that, you need to dial everything, good sleep, sun exposure, low stress, good food, carrot salad, mushrooms etc. All these things can modulate gut flora.

I can't thank you enough. Onwards and upwards.

Thank you so much
Ali

 

[JCastro]

[...] animals with sterile guts are very hard to kill, both with diseases and trauma.

Sterile-gut mice are more sensitive to stress and trauma. More autistic anxious behavior, less able to adapt and function. Looks like sterility and overgrowth both cause autistic dysfunctional behaviors. Being "very hard to kill" is what the Peatarians ridicule about ketosis and fasting, calling it the hibernation metabolism, dauer state etc. But when it comes to sterility, the same thing is happening. Sterility = more "resilient" in a vacuum, unable to function anywhere else.

Absence of the gut microbiota enhances anxiety-like behavior and neuroendocrine response to acute stress in rats

Methods: Germfree (GF) and specific pathogen free (SPF) F344 male rats were first subjected to neurological tests to rule out sensorimotor impairments as confounding factors. Then, we examined the behavior responses of rats to social interaction and open-field tests. Serum corticosterone concentrations, CRF mRNA expression levels in the hypothalamus, glucocorticoid receptor (GR) mRNA expression levels in the hippocampus, and monoamine concentrations in the frontal cortex, hippocampus and striatum were compared in rats that were either exposed to the open-field stress or not.

Results: GF rats spent less time sniffing an unknown partner than SPF rats in the social interaction test, and displayed a lower number of visits to the aversive central area, and an increase in latency time, time spent in the corners and number of defecations in the open-field test. In response to the open-field stress, serum corticosterone concentrations were 2.8-fold higher in GF than in SPF rats. Compared to that of SPF rats, GF rats showed elevated CRF mRNA expression in the hypothalamus and reduced GR mRNA expression in the hippocampus. GF rats also had a lower dopaminergic turnover rate in the frontal cortex, hippocampus and striatum than SPF rats.

Conclusions: In stress-sensitive F344 rats, absence of the gut microbiota exacerbates the neuroendocrine and behavioral responses to acute stress and the results coexist with alterations of the dopaminergic turnover rate in brain upper structures that are known to regulate reactivity to stress and anxiety-like behavior.

 

[Hairfedup]

I'm not an expert on antibiotics, I try to use what I can find and what is safest, because they are all toxic to an extent. I recommend keeping it simple, a 10 day course of penicilin 125mg (half a 400000UI tablet) every 6-8hours should help you. Danny Roddy says he stacked many of them together, I think Ray has done that too.

But it can also be a shorter therapy, here is a quote from Ray:



Judge it by your symptoms, if after 3-4 days you feel good, then you can jump into the florassist, and use the carrot salad as well.

If not, maybe you need to go longer (full 10 days) or choose another one.

Bottomline, if I were you I would find the safest antibiotics (proven track record) you can find, maybe get 2 types if you're able, and experiment until you feel better. Then use florassist to help your gut health and restore a suitable flora.

After that, you need to dial everything, good sleep, sun exposure, low stress, good food, carrot salad, mushrooms etc. All these things can modulate gut flora.

Hey mrchibbs, would you mind if I DM'd you some follow up questions?

 

[mrchibbs]

Hey mrchibbs, would you mind if I DM'd you some follow up questions?

Sure, go ahead.

 

[Matestube]

Children have very little inflammatory response? How come they are much more prone to fever? When they are sick, they are sick! Their body reacts acutely to threats with many symptoms related to inflammation. When those symptoms seem too much for their little body, modern medicine relies on acetaminophen and ibuprofen to make symptoms more tolerable.

What else do children have in common? They are vaccinated.
From the age of 3 months all the way to the age of 15.

That causes inflammatory and immune responses in chain, to the point where you can't distinguish between true defense to a pathogen or defense to a man made toxin.

 

[Matestube]

First is first a happy new year to each and every one of you. ..sorry its taken so long for me to write out this reply, I've just been so incredibly overwhelmed with life lately, I don't even know where to start. I'll try to keep this as pragmatic as possible and only stick to the major details and if I've missed out anything important please yourself and the rest of the forum let me know. OK so I'll start in the simplest way which is since late October/early November 2019, I've been feeling sick every day. My daily life has completely changed and has essentially been a sort of lockdown before 'the pandemic' ever hit. I'm male, 28 years old. So I'll start with the daily symptoms which from what I've read, and I started as a complete layman, are associated with some sort of gut/intestinal bacteria etc:

- Nausea, heavy for the first 6-8 months, now much lighter (I'll get on to this further down)
- Heart palpitations daily, really annoying.
-Chest, stomach, back pains
- Reflux [although this is relatively new, seems without this symptoms my GP wouldn't even take me seriously at all]
- Massive hit to my cognitive abilities and the worst is of course my memory has been completely obliterate, the names of places, things, people have just vanished and I have to concentrate extremely hard just to remember things that would come to me so easily before this started. This has effected my job [I'm an academic researcher] and my hobbies etc quizzing. I'm only putting down these details to sort of clarify how my mind has just become putty. The other day I couldn't spell the name 'Michael'.
- Burping upwards of 200 times a day (this was in the first 3-4 months).
- Loss of strength, really quite drastic as I was quite strong before (some episodes involve even plates of food being heavy for my hands/arms for weeks at a time]
- Loss of muscle, very noticeable to friends and family so really quite visible although I've gained weight. My glutes which were very well developed have almost disappeared and my chest muscle has also vanished leaving me with 'moobs' but not gyno.
- Chest pains have gotten worse and worse to the point I thought I had a stroke, vibrating shivers down my arms and hamstrings etc after one particularly bad night last month.
- An awful feeling of fullness in my throat, can last weeks then disappear and return
- Need to urinate less than 30-40mins after drinking; this has been quite shocking as I was able to 'hold' on a 14 hour flight with no problems [not ideal obviously but just trying to paint a picture of who I was before]
- My bowels have completely changed I don't even know how to describe it, originally my colon/rectum etc was tight [lol] but now feel completely loose, bowels were clean i.e. barely anything to wipe, now very messy leading on to the next point
- My pelvic floor etc is now very weak in keeping with the above and my erections are terrible [ i thought it was the cigarettes but quitting for 1-2 weeks did nothing]
- Sometimes my stomach feels like its literally doing backflips when I'm in bed, I wake up in the night with my whole body shaking eminating from the vibrations in my stomach.
- Stomach aches (developed in the latter half of the year)
- Dry mouth and lips at all times
- Stabbing pains in hands and arms, hit a crescendo with the chest pain/attack situation I described above
- Stomach pains of course, although little to no diarrhea, although I am prone to bouts of gastrointestinitis from food that agrees fine with my family.
-Kidney pains?
-Easily exhausted muscles and lactic acid feelings. Sometimes very strong.
-Essentially I feel like I'm living in someone else's body - the changes have been so sudden and shocking.


As such I haven't been able to do much at all this year, the pandemic made no real difference. This is all exasperate by the extreme stress I've been under (living with my suicidal sister and being her sole councillor shortly before the symptoms began) and now my idiot estranged family members who come from awful boundary-less cultures harassing me and pushing me to the point of probable [redaracted]. My own GP, coming from a nonsense boundary-less third world culture, after a year of complaints had the nerve to call me an idiot in his language believing that I was too westernized to understand what was said. The lack of boundaries is infuriating but I digress, apologies. The NHS have been useless and only now have I been put on a waiting list to see a gastro specialist, after a whole year but alas I don't want to sound like I'm moaning, I'm just at the edge.

Prior to all of this I could eat anything and everything, truly. I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging but really, there was nothing I couldn't eat. My only health problem was my premature balding. Obviously not ideal but since losing my hair at 20-21 [after heavily stressful situations] never really had any problems aside from contracting dengue fever 5 years ago from which I miraculously recovered (doctors believed I would have started internal haemorrhaging), and bacterial tonsilitis involving a lot of coughing up blood I contracted in the tropics (Indonesia). I can't remember the antibiotics I was administered for this. Other than this my life has just been very stressful, but things were going well up until now in terms of the fact I felt fantastic the vast majority of the time, loved swimming, football, dancing. Haven't been able to do much, exercise even gentle seems to make me feel worse for reasons I can't quite understand.

So how did the symptoms start? Suddenly and rapidly. I was living in South-East Asia, a place I'd frequently visited for years and years eating all kinds of street food etc, but never really had any serious issues aside from some bouts of gastrointestinitis. I remember smoking a Chinese cigarette for the first time after a meal and suddenly felt horrible. I thought it must have been the cigarette, but the symptoms persisted. And never went away. The entire situation has made be become obsessive and examining my background and what may have lead for me to be in this situation. Then I remembered (albeit not very well because like I said my memory is completely shot):

Starting in late 2017, in a vain attempt to regrow my hair etc like many others, I started taking massive amounts of coconut oil, sauerkraut and what I believe worst of all, a brand of Malaysian PROBIOTICS I was picking up at a pharmacy there. I distantly remember this concoction making me feel very similar (in terms of the nausea and general dis-ease, as well as stomach pain) to how I've felt over this last year. Unfortunately I can't even remember what probiotics these were, although I'm hoping my brother has kept a bottle at his place somewhere if any of you think that would help? The last time I posted about my issues I was told it was possibly SIBO, but my doctors completely rubbished that idea.

So what have I been doing to manage symptoms? After a long time and trial and error I've been on a steady diet of aspirin, gelatin (without gelatin the nausea can be intense BUT after a year the gelatin is now giving me alarming chest pain), and vitamin K2. I've only just learned about activated charcoal but I'm so worried about hurting myself more I'm not sure how and when to take it. This hasn't been perfect but my quality of life has atleast improved a lot since the first 6 months. A major turning point was when I was some Fluxocillin in my house...only 12 tabs or so. I took a tab every night for 12 days, and most of symptoms halved. However, my GP tells me I have a damaged liver and it seems certainly to be the case from the Fluxocillin...I have another test next week although another member suggested to me that three days of Niacimide should fix the liver issue entirely (they too took Fluxocillin).

Now I feel I've found some hope [I've been praying so hard] the stack of antibiotics you suggested seem right up my street but I felt I needed some sort of confirmation. Thankfully another user also suggested how to get my hands on said antibiotics, truly I can't put into words how much hope this forum gives me and just...I really appreciate every little suggestion, you all help me so greatly without even knowing.

Last thing is I smoke cigarettes, american spirit for what its worth. I'm sure they make me feel worse but I've been so down its been very hard to quit. If any of you were to tell me that it is invariably making things worse, your esteemed opinions would be the only thing I think that can get me to give up immediately. I'm really sorry for the long post that's almost stream of conscious like, I'm just struggling heavily. Would appreciate any and every insight into the matter.

edit: I have a lovely mother who has changed the ingredients she cooks with and at the moment we have almost zero PUFA, I think, and everything is cooked in ghee or butter. anything else, I mean anything deep fried, like a burger I recently tried idiotically, almost killed me if not for aspirin/gelatin.

edit 2: it was malaysian PROBIOTICS not antibiotics, really important mistake i almost didn't catch!

Thank you all so much,
Ali

My symptoms match yours to a T. It almost looks like I wrote the post.

I was also living in South East Asia when this began, and the only 2 clues I have to find a cause are: Hep B vaccine, and a few courses of Azithromycin and Doxycycline.
How are you doing now? Have you found solutions?

 

[Hairfedup]

My symptoms match yours to a T. It almost looks like I wrote the post.

I was also living in South East Asia when this began, and the only 2 clues I have to find a cause are: Hep B vaccine, and a few courses of Azithromycin and Doxycycline.
How are you doing now? Have you found solutions?

Hey man. Sadly much the same but transformative symptoms. Right now dealing with an entirely different issue but as you know I know exactly how you feel and I'm real sorry - shi* sucks. I'll DM you regarding some of my improvement and what I've done/plan on doing.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Antibiotics have mostly been a bad experience for me, there are never any health benefits associated with taking them in my case.

Azithromycin ruins my teeth and oral health generally. I've just taken a 6 day course during a COVID infection. This happens every time that I take it (which isn't often thankfully), my teeth get stained in weird ways, start looking more transparent and even my gums seem to have receeded. My oral health is normally good but I believe the antibiotics wreck the bacterial balance, leaving only the worst, resistant bacteria in the mouth and that is why this happens.

I started some probiotics but I'm not feeling or seeing much difference from those either.

 

[SaltiestSardine]

Antibiotics have mostly been a bad experience for me, there are never any health benefits associated with taking them in my case.

Azithromycin ruins my teeth and oral health generally. I've just taken a 6 day course during a COVID infection. This happens every time that I take it (which isn't often thankfully), my teeth get stained in weird ways, start looking more transparent and even my gums seem to have receeded. My oral health is normally good but I believe the antibiotics wreck the bacterial balance, leaving only the worst, resistant bacteria in the mouth and that is why this happens.

I started some probiotics but I'm not feeling or seeing much difference from those either.

Everything you just described here seems like the antibiotic is doing what it should. Why you think your teeth look better off antibiotics is because the bacterial chains on your teeth themselves and from what you describe like your gingival tissue are riddled with hard plaque(which can look just like an enamel for some people)and inflammation in the case of your gums. The reason they recede when you take the antibiotic is because you have disrupted the biofilms keeping them in place which reduces the inflammation and you see the true erosion that has occured from the gum disease or whatever it is you are suffering with. The translucent thing you are experiencing with your teeth means that you have suffered quite a bit of enamel loss. Teeth don't just suddenly go transparent unless you have lost quite a bit of density to them exposing the dentin

All the antibiotics is showing you is the true state of your dental health, and by what you have described what they appear like when on antibiotics, it's not as good as you think it is. I'd pay more attention to what they look like after antibiotics than before since something is telling you that whatever you are doing day to day oral health wise, and possibly your diet is not able to keep those biofilms at bay without the assistance of them(antibiotics)

 

[Greyfox]

@DANIΣL

It's all specualtions and theories until you experiment to know how YOU feel.

I have my whole life been living in a cloud, my brain always felt like glue, I would wake up as a teen and need ages to be functional, never fully developed like others, was weak.

Part of what I tried to get better were probiotic pills and raw whole probiotic foods such as raw sauerkraut and kefir.

It only made the matter worse, made my muscles cramps and feel acid.

Everything changed for the better when I took Augmentin, Doxycycline and Azithromycin.

I felt strong as a bull, gained healthy weight, was jolly, had the sex drive of a chimp, and could think clearly for the first time.

If probiotic foods suit you, we are not here to argue that they don't.

When I was 16 I went to the doctor for a problem with acne. He prescribed me antibiotics. 500mg amoxycillin 2-3 times daily. I somehow kept picking up repeat prescriptions that meant I had a supply of amoxycillin that lasted me 6 months. The doctor looked at me worried the last time I went down to pick up more, indicating that I should not have been on them for that long. However, as a peaky hypothyroid kid, I was never better than when I was on the massive bricks of amoxycillin tablets. My skin became more plump and full, I had more energy, became more popular with my friends and with the ladies. I'm also pretty sure that my deep purple eye bags completely vanished as well, though it was a long time ago. I definitely wouldn't have had the growth spurt I managed to get on the amount of calories I was eating at the time without those antibiotics. I think the problem with antibiotics is the die-off period that can last a while and also potential k2 deficiency which occasionally made my teeth a bit loose. My diet was atrocious back then as well, full of fibrous grain food that may have caused the acne in the first place. I'm really leaning closer to the sterile gut theory as something that makes more sense over the rather confusing, nebulous science of which bacteria is bad and which bacteria is good, which nobody seems to convincingly able to explain. Though I admit, it does seem to be one of those things that could absolutely devastate health if I happened to be wrong and went about trying to sanitise my gut.