Anti-Peat If There's Bacteria in Human Breastmilk, Why Do Haidut and Peat Push the Sterile Gut Nonsense?

DANIEL

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Shaping the Gut Microbiota by Breastfeeding: The Gateway to Allergy Prevention?

Human milk microbiome

The human milk microbiota, also known as human milk probiotics (HMP), refers to the microbiota (community of microorganisms) residing in the human mammary glands and breast milk.[1] Human breast milk has been traditionally assumed to be sterile,[1][2] but more recently both microbial culture and culture-independent techniques have confirmed that human milk contains diverse communities of bacteria which are distinct from other microbial communities inhabiting the human body.[3][4][5]

The human milk microbiota which could be source of commensal, mutualistic, and potentially probiotic bacteria to the infant gut microbiota.[2] The World Health Organization (WHO) defines "probiotics" as "living organisms which when administered in adequate amounts confer a health benefit on the host".[6]

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Breast milk is a natural source of lactic acid bacteria for the newborn through breastfeeding, and may be considered a symbiotic food.[7] The normal concentration of bacteria in milk from healthy women was about 103 colony-forming units (CFU) per milliliter.[8] The milk's bacterial communities were generally complex.[8] Among the hundreds of operational taxonomic units detected in the milk of every woman, only nine (Streptococcus, Staphylococcus, Serratia, Pseudomonas, Corynebacterium, Ralstonia, Propionibacterium, Sphingomonas, and Bradyrhizobiaceae) were present in every sample from every woman, but an individual's milk bacterial community was generally stable over time.[9] Human milk is a source of live Staphylococci, Streptococci, lactic acid bacteria, Bifidobacteria, Propionibacteria, Corynebacteria, and closely related Gram-positive bacteria for the infant gut.[2]

Breast milk was considered to be free of bacteria until about the early 2000s, when lactic acid bacteria were first described in human milk hygienically collected from healthy women.[7] Several studies have shown that there is a mother-to-infant transfer of bacterial strains belonging, at least, to the genera Lactobacillus, Staphylococcus, Enterococcus, and Bifidobacterium through breastfeeding, thus accounting for the close relationship of bacterial composition of the gut microbiota of breastfed infants with that found in the breast milk of their respective mothers.[2] Research has also found that there are similarities between human milk and infant gut microbial flora, suggesting that dietary exposure, such as human milk probiotics, may have a contribution in supporting infant gut microbiota and immune development.[10]

Bacteria commonly isolated in human milk samples include Bifidobacterium, Lactobacillus, Staphylococcus, Streptococcus, Bacteroides, Clostridium, Micrococcus, Enterococcus, and Escherichia.[3][5] Metagenomic analyses of human milk find it is dominated by Staphylococcus, Pseudomonas, and Edwardsiella.[11][12] The human milk microbiome likely varies by population and between individual women,[13] however, a study based on a group of U.S. women observed the same nine bacterial taxa in all samples from all of their participants, suggesting a common "core" of the milk microbiome, at least in that population.[8] Bacterial communities of human colostrum have been reported as being more diverse than those found in mature milk.[1][14]

The three strains of Lactobacilli with probiotic properties that were isolated from breast milk were L. fermentum CECT5716, L. gasseri CECT5714, and L. salivarius CECT5713,[15] with L. fermentum being one of the most abundant strains.[9] Early administration of L. fermentum CECT5716 in infant formula is claimed to be safe and well tolerated for infants one to six months of age,[16] and safe for long term use.[17]

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I personally f*cked up my gut with aspirin, oregano oil, and haidut's Camphosal, to no fault but my own for falling for some of the BS shared in this community.

But PSA to everyone here, there's no such thing as a sterile gut in a human. We co-evolved with these microbes and most of them are very beneficial to the host, producing essential vitamins, short-chain fatty acids, and other metabolites.
 

schultz

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When has Ray ever suggested that we should try to achieve an entirely sterile GI tract? He has mentioned small intestine, but he did not say the entire small and large intestine should be sterile. He has actually argued against that in saying that if you have a sterile animal and then introduce that animal suddenly to organisms it could die. He followed that up by mentioned that a little bit of endotoxin is good for the immune system. I think he said it "toughens up" the immune system
 

boris

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It‘s a misunderstanding (black and white thinking), just like people misunderstand his view of estrogen.

Peat says to take vitamin K, or eat vitamin K rich foods, during a course of antibiotics because the bacteria that produce vitamin K in the gut get killed off. He also used (only certain) safe probiotics and recommends them.

As schultz said, when he talks about sterility of the gut, he always refers to the small intestine.
 

boris

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How did you take the Aspirin? Swallowing the pills is harmful because they get stuck to your mucosal walls and produce local damage due to their acidity. Aspirin should be taken after a good meal, dissolved in water, strained through a filter (or just leaving the excipients at the bottom of the glass). For Aspirin you also need to take vitamin K beforehand (1mg per 300mg Aspirin) to avoid bleeding issues.
 
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JKX

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Breast milk is about as 'peaty' as it gets. Sure there are bacteria present and this is probably heavily influenced by the mothers state of health, but it's also choc full of compounds such as lactoferrin which control harmful bacterial types and promote more beneficial types. It also contains a large amount of galacto-oligosaccharides which preferentially feed bifidobacteria. The short chain faty acids these bacteria produce such as acetate aid thyroid function.
 

cjm

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Breast milk is about as 'peaty' as it gets. Sure there are bacteria present and this is probably heavily influenced by the mothers state of health, but it's also choc full of compounds such as lactoferrin which control harmful bacterial types and promote more beneficial types. It also contains a large amount of galacto-oligosaccharides which preferentially feed bifidobacteria. The short chain faty acids these bacteria produce such as acetate aid thyroid function.

Just want to add, there is an extensive discussion on that here: Why Is There So Much Soluble Fibre In Human Breast Milk?
 

JKX

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Thanks for posting that thread. I didnt know it existed. Ive only read the first page but already lots of good discussion. 49 pages is going to take a bit of reading though...
 

mrchibbs

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Exhibit A: Textbook example of a Straw Man Argument, with a condescending tone to boot.
 

TheBeard

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You misinterpreted his message.

He and Haidut said a sterile gut is preferable to a dysbiotic microbiome, not that it's ideal.
 

GreenTrails

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I am reading the book, Gut and Physiology Syndrome, by Natasha Campbell-McBride, MD. I highly recommend this book. She explains the role of our microbiome in our entire physiology. "Good health begins in the soil inside us! If you don't like bacteria, you're on the wrong planet." -- Stewart Brand
Also, you are all familiar with Hippocrates concluded more than 2,000 years ago: " All diseases begin in the gut."

Daniel, thanks for posting.
 

DANIEL

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You misinterpreted his message.

He and Haidut said a sterile gut is preferable to a dysbiotic microbiome, not that it's ideal.
Okay. But their approval of using antibiotics contributes to a dysbiotic microbiome in the first place.
I am reading the book, Gut and Physiology Syndrome, by Natasha Campbell-McBride, MD. I highly recommend this book. She explains the role of our microbiome in our entire physiology. "Good health begins in the soil inside us! If you don't like bacteria, you're on the wrong planet." -- Stewart Brand
Also, you are all familiar with Hippocrates concluded more than 2,000 years ago: " All diseases begin in the gut."

Daniel, thanks for posting.
Certainly the cornerstone of health! You might enjoy this video on the microbiome
Exhibit A: Textbook example of a Straw Man Argument, with a condescending tone to boot.
Thanks for adding to the discussion.
When has Ray ever suggested that we should try to achieve an entirely sterile GI tract? He has mentioned small intestine, but he did not say the entire small and large intestine should be sterile. He has actually argued against that in saying that if you have a sterile animal and then introduce that animal suddenly to organisms it could die. He followed that up by mentioned that a little bit of endotoxin is good for the immune system. I think he said it "toughens up" the immune system
To be clear, I have seen multiple threads on this forum and Haidut saying on YT that all probiotics are harmful, antibiotics can cure all gut issues etc. Most likely, Ray's words are being twisted by people who monetize his work which seems to be the case. Ray usually doesn't give general advice, which is a good thing.
This.
Small intestine -> sterile
Colon -> full of beneficial bacteria
:thumbup
 

TheBeard

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@DANIΣL

The use of antibiotics is a tool to level the playfield when dysbiosis is present, whether dysbiosis was antibiotic-induced or not.
 

mrchibbs

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This may be a sensationalist title, but the core idea is that both harmful and ''beneficial'' bacteria can release LPS into the bloodstream.

We have indeed evolved symbiotic relationships with certain bacteria in the large intestines, which synthesize many nutrients. However, in a state of chronic stress, even the ''good" bacteria can become pathogenic.

The good bacteria are still bacteria, benefits to the host are side-effects of their continued existence, not their primary function.

I suggest you look into the studies regarding bacterial translocation.

With the adaptive downregulation of thyroid function during chronic stress, and the permeability of the gut membranes, endotoxin (LPS) from the intestines can and indeed do spread to other organs, where they do not belong.

In extreme scenarios, antibiotics can bring profound relief. Of course this often creates other downstream problems regarding, absorption and synthesis of nutrients.

But again this illustrates that the relationship with bacteria is not linear and very much context-dependent.
 

tankasnowgod

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Ah. So Breast milk was thought to be free of bacteria until the early 2000s, huh? Well, two possibilities with that-

1. Breast milk always had bacteria in it.
2. Breast milk only started to have bacteria in it in the 2000s (or at least increased bacterial loads made it more measureable).

When you consider that nothing increases bacteria levels like iron, and iron intake has been increasing in humans for the 20th century (and remains high in the 21st, thanks to "fortification"), well, the second option is certainly plausible.

iron-intake2.png


Regardless, the fact that breast milk might have some bacteria in it doesn't mean that a sterile gut can't be beneficial.


"A bird developing inside its eggshell illustrates the way organs and the environment interact. The chicken created a very good environment for the early development of its young. When the egg is formed, it contains everything needed to produce a chicken, except for oxygen and a steady warm temperature. But before the chick’s body has finished developing, using yolk fat for energy, the glucose contained in the egg has been consumed, and at that point the chick’s brain stops growing. A researcher who knew that brain growth in other kinds of animals requires glucose, injected glucose (or glycine) into the developing eggs when the original glucose had been depleted. The supplemental glucose allowed the chick’s brain to continue growing until it hatched. These chicks had larger brains, containing more numerous cells. The same experimenters also found that progesterone increases brain size, while corticosterone decreases it. Although the egg is a very good environment for the development of chickens, these experiments showed that it isn’t the best that can be achieved. If the hen’s environment had been different, it might have been able to provide as much glucose and progesterone as the experimenters did."

Of course, having said that, getting to that stage of a sterile gut can be very difficult and impractical for most, and using antibiotics to try to achieve this comes with its own set of risks.
 

TheBeard

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@DANIΣL

It's all specualtions and theories until you experiment to know how YOU feel.

I have my whole life been living in a cloud, my brain always felt like glue, I would wake up as a teen and need ages to be functional, never fully developed like others, was weak.

Part of what I tried to get better were probiotic pills and raw whole probiotic foods such as raw sauerkraut and kefir.

It only made the matter worse, made my muscles cramps and feel acid.

Everything changed for the better when I took Augmentin, Doxycycline and Azithromycin.

I felt strong as a bull, gained healthy weight, was jolly, had the sex drive of a chimp, and could think clearly for the first time.

If probiotic foods suit you, we are not here to argue that they don't.
 

Ben.

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@DANIΣL

It's all specualtions and theories until you experiment to know how YOU feel.

I have my whole life been living in a cloud, my brain always felt like glue, I would wake up as a teen and need ages to be functional, never fully developed like others, was weak.

Part of what I tried to get better were probiotic pills and raw whole probiotic foods such as raw sauerkraut and kefir.

It only made the matter worse, made my muscles cramps and feel acid.

Everything changed for the better when I took Augmentin, Doxycycline and Azithromycin.

I felt strong as a bull, gained healthy weight, was jolly, had the sex drive of a chimp, and could think clearly for the first time.

If probiotic foods suit you, we are not here to argue that they don't.


I wonder what the exact mechanisms are behind both kinds of succes stories.

Probiotics, fermented food, Prebiotics, Fiber etc. are used to change the gut microbiome right? For some this may lead to the desired changes in the GI tract and they get better. For others it doesn't or make it worse.

Could it be that there are bacteria which are so big in numbers or w/e that probiotics and or prebiotics just increase symptoms? And the only way to realy get things changing is heavy artillery with antibiotics?

Maybe its the setup? And the problem is not a lack of biffido strains but the lack of some completly others/unknown ones? maybe missing enough amounts of "friends" down there cause even the "healthy" strains to be problematic? Even vitamin supplementation like vit d or b can induce changes in the gut microbiome. I feel like anything we consume can to a degree.

Been experimenting with probiotics on and off and i don't seem to react too well to them. A sporebased one seemed to "atleast" not trigger a bad response. Fermented foods however ... getting scary reactions from them in regards to my brain (nightmares, dizziness, insecurity, suicidal thoughts etc.)

I think this forum could realy benefit of an concentrated information chart based off of the different testimonials and succes stories so one can evaluate what to do and test for him/herself depending on the health issues, like a table of expirementations one could do. The information that these 3 antibiotics helped you is extremely valuable. Perhaps i can do that ....

Sorry... just thinking out loud here.
 

Hairfedup

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@DANIΣL

It's all specualtions and theories until you experiment to know how YOU feel.

I have my whole life been living in a cloud, my brain always felt like glue, I would wake up as a teen and need ages to be functional, never fully developed like others, was weak.

Part of what I tried to get better were probiotic pills and raw whole probiotic foods such as raw sauerkraut and kefir.

It only made the matter worse, made my muscles cramps and feel acid.

Everything changed for the better when I took Augmentin, Doxycycline and Azithromycin.

I felt strong as a bull, gained healthy weight, was jolly, had the sex drive of a chimp, and could think clearly for the first time.

If probiotic foods suit you, we are not here to argue that they don't.

Hey man...do you mind if I PM you?
 
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