High Calcium Intake + Vitamin D Is Bad Combo?

[Collden]

Just a thought, most people at northern latitudes (Scandinavia, Russia) who have low Vitamin D production traditionally ate a lot of dairy, whereas people at southern latitudes with high Vit D production generally eat little dairy and likely get far less overall calcium.

The main function of Vitamin D is to increase intestinal calcium absorption, Vit D and Calcium interact so that lower intake of one can be compensated by higher intake of the other, but it also means that having a high intake of both could spell real trouble - namely hypercalcemia. I'm thinking that if you are of northern descent, and especially if you consume a lot of dairy, your need for Vit D will be far lower than someone of southern descent who eats little dairy. Also because of genetic polymorphisms in Vit D metabolism that make northerners use Vit D more efficiently and make southerners more wasteful of Vit D.

Ray Peat encourages high consumption of both dairy and Vit D supplementation, and I'm wondering if this might not lead some people to develop problems with hypercalcemia.

 

[berk]

no.

 

[lampofred]

They work together for the beneficial effects. Getting enough vitamin K and keeping PUFA low and thyroid/salt/CO2 high will prevent hypercalcemia.

 

[Collden]

Vitamin K also increases calcium retention so how on earth would it prevent hypercalcemia?

 

[lampofred]

K puts calcium into bones where it needs to go and prevents the calcium from causing excessive excitation and cell death.

 

[Collden]

Yes but if there is a high baseline calcium intake and you are bypassing the natural regulation of its absorption by taking supplemental Vitamin D, Vitamin K is not going to do much if you simply have too much damn calcium in your system.

 

[lampofred]

If blood calcium is excessive because of high calcium and vitamin D intake, and vitamin K takes calcium out of blood and puts it into bones, then wouldn't it be reducing hypercalcemia by reducing the availability of calcium to enter cells and cause calcification?

 

[Collden]

I would say your body has a limited ability to deposit excess calcium, your bones cannot store infinite amounts.

 

[Collden]

This is what might happen if you were to store too much calcium, even in the "right" places.

Osteopetrosis - Wikipedia

 

[somuch4food]

This is what might happen if you were to store too much calcium, even in the "right" places.

Osteopetrosis - Wikipedia

Did you read the Wikipedia page? They mention vitamin D as a treatment in infantile cases:

Treatment is necessary for the infantile form:[4]

• Vitamin D (calcitriol) appears to stimulate dormant osteoclasts, which stimulates bone resorption

 

[Collden]

Just saying its bad if your bones absorb too much calcium.

Vitamin D is well known to increase calcium absorption and cause hypercalcemia in excess.

 

[Amazoniac]

Collden!

I think that it's fatal when you obtain an easily-absorbed form of killcium, isolated, concentrated, at a high dose when adapted to low, and add venom D. But there's a remote chance of survival due to how well we absorb toxins at hospitalizing amounts: it's the first preventive break against imbalances of this sort.

 

[Collden]

@Amazoniac

Was just reading through some post of yours and stumbled on Chris Masterjohns article from 2013 and of course this debate is a decade old already.
An Ancestral Perspective on Vitamin D Status, Part 1: Problems With the Naked Ape Hypothesis of Optimal Serum 25(OH)D | Chris Masterjohn, PhD

I found interesting his point that calcium spares 25(OH)D and calcium deficiency causes low 25(OH)D levels, would it stand to reason that with a high enough intake of highly absorbable calcium our need for Vitamin D is much lower. Do we even need Vitamin D for anything aside from helping to maintain calcium levels?

 

[LucH]

Do we even need Vitamin D for anything aside from helping to maintain calcium levels?

Yes, to optimize immunity. D > 45 ng/ml.
NB: There is interaction between vit A D3 and K2. Inverse U effect.

 

[Giraffe]

Just a thought, most people at northern latitudes (Scandinavia, Russia) who have low Vitamin D production traditionally ate a lot of dairy, whereas people at southern latitudes with high Vit D production generally eat little dairy and likely get far less overall calcium.

• Your claim that people in North of Europe eat more dairy than in the South is wrong. (see study)
• The vitamin D levels in South Europe are not higher than in North Europe. "unexpected north–south gradient, with a positive correlation between vitamin D status and latitude"

Just saying its bad if your bones absorb too much calcium.

Vitamin D is well known to increase calcium absorption and cause hypercalcemia in excess.

Vitamin D toxicity, is extremely rare.

article
In healthy individuals, exogenous VDT is usually caused by prolonged use (months) of vitamin D mega doses, but not by the abnormally high exposure of skin to the sun or by eating a diversified diet. [...] Exogenous VDT due to vitamin D overdosing is diagnosed by markedly elevated 25(OH)D concentrations (>150 ng/ml) accompanied by severe hypercalcemia and hypercalciuria and by very low or undetectable parathyroid hormone (PTH) activity (4).

Do we even need Vitamin D for anything aside from helping to maintain calcium levels?

To have the blood calcium level in a certain range is utterly important.

Because of the critical nature of Ca2+ levels in the blood, the importance of vitamin D cannot be overestimated. -- "Handbook of Vitamins, Minerals and Hormones" by Roman J. Kutsky, Ph.D.

 

[milkbasedvegan]

I would expect people from Northern Europe to get plenty of vitamin D from seafood

 

[Collden]

Most fish provide at most a few hundred IUs at reasonable intakes, plus since both fish and dairy are protein sources I imagine the more dairy you have the less fish you'd eat.

Giraffe, I'm not sure how representative your study is since it contradicts FAO data showing Spain consumes considerably less milk than scandinavian countries. Overall people eat far less dairy the closer you get to the equator although there might be isolated countries that buck the trend. The prevalence of lactase persistence also increases sharply the further north you go.

That people in the North dont have lower circulating D levels might be due to genetic differences or the sparing effect of higher calcium consumption, but that Vitamin D production from sun exposure is lower in the north is I think indisputable, no?

Lots of people report having issues with even moderate amounts of supplemental Vit D so likely there can be subclinical disturbances in calcium.

 

[Momentum]

I remember seeing a graphic over a decade ago that showed the globe with the rates of auto-immune disorders and vitamin D levels. The further away from the equator, the higher the rate of auto-immune and the lower the average vitamin D level.
At that time the Vitamin D Council recommended keeping your 25OH at around 75 and around 100 if your health was compromised. They've lowered their numbers (last I looked), but it appeared more for political pressure than for better data.
With our nutrient void food we are seeing a rise in symptoms/diseases associated with B1, B12 deficiencies, a rise in rickets, iodine deficient diseases and I'm sure you all could add to this list

 

[Auslander]

Just a thought, most people at northern latitudes (Scandinavia, Russia) who have low Vitamin D production traditionally ate a lot of dairy, whereas people at southern latitudes with high Vit D production generally eat little dairy and likely get far less overall calcium.

The main function of Vitamin D is to increase intestinal calcium absorption, Vit D and Calcium interact so that lower intake of one can be compensated by higher intake of the other, but it also means that having a high intake of both could spell real trouble - namely hypercalcemia. I'm thinking that if you are of northern descent, and especially if you consume a lot of dairy, your need for Vit D will be far lower than someone of southern descent who eats little dairy. Also because of genetic polymorphisms in Vit D metabolism that make northerners use Vit D more efficiently and make southerners more wasteful of Vit D.

Ray Peat encourages high consumption of both dairy and Vit D supplementation, and I'm wondering if this might not lead some people to develop problems with hypercalcemia.

You just manufactured this hypothesis out of a thin air. Not bad.

 

[Collden]

You just manufactured this hypothesis out of a thin air. Not bad.

Thanks, I quite like it too.

Just look here how the map of UV radiation sufficiency correlates with the map of lactose intolerance, with exceptions for places recently colonized by Europeans.

I do find it odd that blanket recommendations of supplementing thousands of IUs per day are being made, when for large swathes of the global population, their ancestors would historically not have gotten anything close to that amount on a daily basis, and they have likely adapted to lower Vit D production both genetically and culturally. Supplementation makes the most sense for southerners who move north.