Height is NOT genetic - UK's drastic drop in height due to austerity, poor diet

haidut

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A few years before the pandemic hit, I did a several posts on studies demonstrating that height is not genetically determined and that diet and environment play a much more important role. One of the big studies on that topic demonstrated that Dutch men gained ~20cm (~4in) of height in the last 150 years simply due to increased dairy consumption. The second study demonstrated that in Montenegro, a genetically very similar population has a very pronounced height dimorphism depending on where they live, with the mountain-dwelling people of the country being almost a foot taller then their genetic brethren living down in the fields. Those mountain-dwelling Montenegrins were taller than even the Dutch (who are the tallest, on average, in Europe), while the field-dwelling Montenegrins were among the shortest (on average) in Europe. My guess is that the higher CO2 retention and, again, the higher dairy intake of the "mountain men" were the major factors driving their height gains.
Now, a study from the UK adds even more evidence that height is primarily determined by the environment, by demonstrating that UK kids have "lost", on average, up to 2.7in since 1985 in comparison with their aged-matched peers in the Netherlands. According to the study, the main factors responsible for this drastic diminution were poor diet and growing up in an environment of austerity (both economic and social). I have seen something very similar unfold in the US as well. When I first arrived in the country in the late 1990s I was shocked at how tall the average US male was compared to most Europeans I had seen, even in the non-mountainous DC, and this was especially pronounced in the DC police force. Over the last 2+ decades, this height "premium" seems to have all but disappeared and now most males in the DC police force looks like under-developed adolescents. Since the evidence now points to height being one of the most sensitive indicators of environmental quality, the only reasonable conclusion is that Western populations have been subjected to absolutely abysmal living and dietary conditions since 1985, in direct contrast to the politicians' constant harping about the ever-increasing "prosperity" of their constituents. The studies below mention mostly the economic austerity measures instituted since the financial crisis in 2008. However, I think the elephant in the room that has not manifested its "weight" yet is the pandemic with the associated lockdowns, mask-wearing and social isolation that will probably dwarf the negative height effects of the post-2008 austerity.
@Drareg

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31859-6/fulltext
Regional differences in short stature in England between 2006 and 2019: A cross-sectional analysis from the National Child Measurement Programme
British five-year-olds seven centimetres shorter than Dutch kids
"...British five-year-olds are on average seven centimetres shorter than Dutch children, with a poor diet being blamed for kids falling behind in height rankings. On average, five-year-olds in Britain are up to 2.7 inches shorter than in comparable wealthy nations like the Netherlands, experts revealed. The trend has been described as 'pretty startling', with British youngsters 'falling behind' European kids and dropping 30 places down international height charts since 1985...Professor Tim Cole, an expert in child growth rates at the Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, University College London, explained that height is a clear indicator of living conditions."

Children raised under UK austerity shorter than European peers, study finds
"...British children who grew up during the years of austerity are shorter than their peers in Bulgaria, Montenegro and Lithuania, a study has found. In 1985, British boys and girls ranked 69 out of 200 countries for average height aged five. At the time they were on average 111.4cm and 111cm tall respectively. Now, British boys are 102nd and girls 96th, with the average five-year-old boy measuring 112.5cm and the average girl, 111.7cm. In Bulgaria, the average height for a five-year-old boy is 121cm and a girl, 118cm. Experts have said a poor national diet and cuts to the NHS are to blame. But they have also pointed out that height is a strong indicator of general living conditions, including illness and infection, stress, poverty and sleep quality."

"...“Children in the poorest areas of England are both fatter and significantly shorter than those in the richest areas at age 10 to 11,” said Henry Dimbleby, the former government food adviser.“This is a big enough problem to have an impact at an international level.”"
 

Nfinkelstein

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From metabolic perspective, Broda Barnes pointed out that impaired thyroid function can result in reduced height. But he also pointed that, conversely, the opposite can also be true, hypo people growing taller than if they weren't hypo. Anecdotally I have observed this, people seemingly hypo but growing like weeds. You pointed out dairy consumption in the dutch and montenegrin mtn people as potentially being explanatory of height, and I think you are right --- but dairy consumption per capita in the US is up over the past 20 years, so as you say it likely is a result of something else. Substantially reduced T levels resulting from elevated bmi, environmental toxins, and increased drug use.
 
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haidut

haidut

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From metabolic perspective, Broda Barnes pointed out that impaired thyroid function can result in reduced height. But he also pointed that, conversely, the opposite can also be true, hypo people growing taller than if they weren't hypo. Anecdotally I have observed this, people seemingly hypo but growing like weeds. You pointed out dairy consumption in the dutch and montenegrin mtn people as potentially being explanatory of height, and I think you are right --- but dairy consumption per capita in the US is up over the past 20 years, so as you say it likely is a result of something else. Substantially reduced T levels resulting from elevated bmi, environmental toxins, and increased drug use.

Yep, and higher cortisol due to chronic stress would also help explain it as cortisol is a known "stunted growth" inducer. The increased height in some hypo people is likely due to increased growth hormone secretion, as thyroid keeps GH under control. Still, increased height is less common than decreased height in most conditions of suboptimal health.
 

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When I heard about the drop in height recently I immediately thought of the removal of free school milk. In 1995 free milk finally ended for all school children in the UK. It ended for secondary school children in 1968.


The vilification of milk has been quiet intense here. It's all about oat, almond, soya milk - vegan nonsense.



Not to mention all the other stresses that go with being a young person these days. (All the more reason they need good nutrition)

Also breast feeding is in decline

 
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haidut

haidut

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The vilification of milk has been quiet intense here. It's all about oat, almond, soya milk - vegan nonsense.

Same here in the US, at least in most of the big cities I have been to.
 

-Luke-

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Victor Wembanyama's parents (both pretty tall as well) knew what they were doing when they fed him raw milk from an early age. So probably a combination of nature and nurture in this n=1 case study.

@Peatress: Same here. Even ten years ago or so people who drank oat or almond "milk" were sort of odd. Now I see people buying that stuff every time I buy groceries.

Regarding the breast feeding: It's no surprise. Just last week a big German newspaper ran a story about how mothers who want to develop a strong bond to their child (including breast feeding) are right-wingers. No, this is not a joke. I think the objective of articles like that is to motivate parents to deliver their children to state institutions as early as possible, preferably directly from the delivery room. You can't leave indoctr... uhm upbringing to the parents. But the inadequate development due to artificial feeding is a "side benefit".
 

Peatress

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Victor Wembanyama's parents (both pretty tall as well) knew what they were doing when they fed him raw milk from an early age. So probably a combination of nature and nurture in this n=1 case study.

@Peatress: Same here. Even ten years ago or so people who drank oat or almond "milk" were sort of odd. Now I see people buying that stuff every time I buy groceries.

Regarding the breast feeding: It's no surprise. Just last week a big German newspaper ran a story about how mothers who want to develop a strong bond to their child (including breast feeding) are right-wingers. No, this is not a joke. I think the objective of articles like that is to motivate parents to deliver their children to state institutions as early as possible, preferably directly from the delivery room. You can't leave indoctr... uhm upbringing to the parents. But the inadequate development due to artificial feeding is a "side benefit".
This is beyond ridiculous. Not so long ago there was a debate about whether women should be allowed to breast feed in public. Imagine. A country that popularised the page 3 pin up. You can flaunt your breast but God forbid if you decide to feed your baby.

 
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shucknchuck

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Just last week a big German newspaper ran a story about how mothers who want to develop a strong bond to their child (including breast feeding) are right-wingers. No, this is not a joke. I think the objective of articles like that is to motivate parents to deliver their children to state institutions as early as possible...
A Positive side effect of this is that gate keeping is a double edged sword.

Left wingers, who are actively undermining the existence of their country, will be less vital, and right-wingers will reactionarily pick up some positive family traits that sets one up for long-term success in the face of some wild extinction possibilities in Europe. One might call it a "concretizing effect" of propaganda :)

Everyone knows that right-wingerism is a protectivist/naturalist mentality - conservatives were the original isolationists, for instance - not all bad, at all. A country that denies it's right wingers, denies its future. Right wingers need all the prodding they can get lol.
 

lvysaur

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US heights began falling exactly at 1970, which was also exactly when wages started declining
european heights also began to fall around 1970, even though immigration was almost zero around this date

IQs of ethnic Norwegian males have also been dropping since the 1970s


A major study carried out in Norway suggests IQ scores among men there have been falling since the mid-1970s.
The study involved more than 700,000 men born to Norwegian couples between 1962 and 1991.

In the Norwegian study, results showed the average IQ score increased about three percent for men born between 1962 and 1975 – from 99.5 to 102.3.
But the scores began dropping for men born after 1975. By 1989, the average IQ score had returned to 99.4.

These facts upset a large portion of white supremacists, because they prove that most, if not all of their advantage can be chalked up to the simple circumstance of being rich.
 

LA

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Too True. My dad crawled around under his parents huge kitchen/dining room table and he exchanged his bread for milk from anyone who would trade. His Italian born parents had 12 children born in NY and in So. Italy. 11 boys and 1 girl lived.
My father was the tallest. The fun brother (great at jokes) was the one who ALWAYS traded his milk for the bread or whatever my father was trying to use as an exchange. He (my dad) would crawl around under the huge table to trade his bread or noodles or whatever so he could get more milk.
His brother the fun one was the shortest in the family.
 
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Drareg

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A few years before the pandemic hit, I did a several posts on studies demonstrating that height is not genetically determined and that diet and environment play a much more important role. One of the big studies on that topic demonstrated that Dutch men gained ~20cm (~4in) of height in the last 150 years simply due to increased dairy consumption. The second study demonstrated that in Montenegro, a genetically very similar population has a very pronounced height dimorphism depending on where they live, with the mountain-dwelling people of the country being almost a foot taller then their genetic brethren living down in the fields. Those mountain-dwelling Montenegrins were taller than even the Dutch (who are the tallest, on average, in Europe), while the field-dwelling Montenegrins were among the shortest (on average) in Europe. My guess is that the higher CO2 retention and, again, the higher dairy intake of the "mountain men" were the major factors driving their height gains.
Now, a study from the UK adds even more evidence that height is primarily determined by the environment, by demonstrating that UK kids have "lost", on average, up to 2.7in since 1985 in comparison with their aged-matched peers in the Netherlands. According to the study, the main factors responsible for this drastic diminution were poor diet and growing up in an environment of austerity (both economic and social). I have seen something very similar unfold in the US as well. When I first arrived in the country in the late 1990s I was shocked at how tall the average US male was compared to most Europeans I had seen, even in the non-mountainous DC, and this was especially pronounced in the DC police force. Over the last 2+ decades, this height "premium" seems to have all but disappeared and now most males in the DC police force looks like under-developed adolescents. Since the evidence now points to height being one of the most sensitive indicators of environmental quality, the only reasonable conclusion is that Western populations have been subjected to absolutely abysmal living and dietary conditions since 1985, in direct contrast to the politicians' constant harping about the ever-increasing "prosperity" of their constituents. The studies below mention mostly the economic austerity measures instituted since the financial crisis in 2008. However, I think the elephant in the room that has not manifested its "weight" yet is the pandemic with the associated lockdowns, mask-wearing and social isolation that will probably dwarf the negative height effects of the post-2008 austerity.
@Drareg

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31859-6/fulltext
Regional differences in short stature in England between 2006 and 2019: A cross-sectional analysis from the National Child Measurement Programme
British five-year-olds seven centimetres shorter than Dutch kids
"...British five-year-olds are on average seven centimetres shorter than Dutch children, with a poor diet being blamed for kids falling behind in height rankings. On average, five-year-olds in Britain are up to 2.7 inches shorter than in comparable wealthy nations like the Netherlands, experts revealed. The trend has been described as 'pretty startling', with British youn
gsters 'falling behind' European kids and dropping 30 places down international height charts since 1985...Professor Tim Cole, an expert in child growth rates at the Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, University College London, explained that height is a clear indicator of living conditions."

Children raised under UK austerity shorter than European peers, study finds
"...British children who grew up during the years of austerity are shorter than their peers in Bulgaria, Montenegro and Lithuania, a study has found. In 1985, British boys and girls ranked 69 out of 200 countries for average height aged five. At the time they were on average 111.4cm and 111cm tall respectively. Now, British boys are 102nd and girls 96th, with the average five-year-old boy measuring 112.5cm and the average girl, 111.7cm. In Bulgaria, the average height for a five-year-old boy is 121cm and a girl, 118cm. Experts have said a poor national diet and cuts to the NHS are to blame. But they have also pointed out that height is a strong indicator of general living conditions, including illness and infection, stress, poverty and sleep quality."

"...“Children in the poorest areas of England are both fatter and significantly shorter than those in the richest areas at age 10 to 11,” said Henry Dimbleby, the former government food adviser.“This is a big enough problem to have an impact at an international level.”"
Are we surprised, of course not, the system is psychotic, the ruling class will run from studies like this, more evidence of how much of a failure the system is, this is the reason they are desperate for world war 3. Most of the ruling class are also short.

While I don't believe anyone should be abused for being overweight the fat shaming narrative has shifted to not allowing any critique of weight gain, it so sad to see kids overweight, they don't even realise in some cases, the big fast food industry are probably indirectly funding a non profit NGO type operation to promote the "stop the fat shaming narrative".
Calcium suppresses fatty acid synthase and builds bone, obesity lowers testosterone, this cycle beginning in childhood is a disaster, we then have idiots in the green movement trying to stop milk drinking the easiest form to assimilate.
Generation X do not know how to nourish themselves or their kids.
 

LA

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Are we surprised, of course not, the system is psychotic, the ruling class will run from studies like this, more evidence of how much of a failure the system is, this is the reason they are desperate for world war 3. Most of the ruling class are also short.

While I don't believe anyone should be abused for being overweight the fat shaming narrative has shifted to not allowing any critique of weight gain, it so sad to see kids overweight, they don't even realise in some cases, the big fast food industry are probably indirectly funding a non profit NGO type operation to promote the "stop the fat shaming narrative".
Calcium suppresses fatty acid synthase and builds bone, obesity lowers testosterone, this cycle beginning in childhood is a disaster, we then have idiots in the green movement trying to stop milk drinking the easiest form to assimilate.
Generation X do not know how to nourish themselves or their kids.
Seriously - your response should be posted all over the internet !
 

Drareg

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A few years before the pandemic hit, I did a several posts on studies demonstrating that height is not genetically determined and that diet and environment play a much more important role. One of the big studies on that topic demonstrated that Dutch men gained ~20cm (~4in) of height in the last 150 years simply due to increased dairy consumption. The second study demonstrated that in Montenegro, a genetically very similar population has a very pronounced height dimorphism depending on where they live, with the mountain-dwelling people of the country being almost a foot taller then their genetic brethren living down in the fields. Those mountain-dwelling Montenegrins were taller than even the Dutch (who are the tallest, on average, in Europe), while the field-dwelling Montenegrins were among the shortest (on average) in Europe. My guess is that the higher CO2 retention and, again, the higher dairy intake of the "mountain men" were the major factors driving their height gains.
Now, a study from the UK adds even more evidence that height is primarily determined by the environment, by demonstrating that UK kids have "lost", on average, up to 2.7in since 1985 in comparison with their aged-matched peers in the Netherlands. According to the study, the main factors responsible for this drastic diminution were poor diet and growing up in an environment of austerity (both economic and social). I have seen something very similar unfold in the US as well. When I first arrived in the country in the late 1990s I was shocked at how tall the average US male was compared to most Europeans I had seen, even in the non-mountainous DC, and this was especially pronounced in the DC police force. Over the last 2+ decades, this height "premium" seems to have all but disappeared and now most males in the DC police force looks like under-developed adolescents. Since the evidence now points to height being one of the most sensitive indicators of environmental quality, the only reasonable conclusion is that Western populations have been subjected to absolutely abysmal living and dietary conditions since 1985, in direct contrast to the politicians' constant harping about the ever-increasing "prosperity" of their constituents. The studies below mention mostly the economic austerity measures instituted since the financial crisis in 2008. However, I think the elephant in the room that has not manifested its "weight" yet is the pandemic with the associated lockdowns, mask-wearing and social isolation that will probably dwarf the negative height effects of the post-2008 austerity.
@Drareg

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31859-6/fulltext
Regional differences in short stature in England between 2006 and 2019: A cross-sectional analysis from the National Child Measurement Programme
British five-year-olds seven centimetres shorter than Dutch kids
"...British five-year-olds are on average seven centimetres shorter than Dutch children, with a poor diet being blamed for kids falling behind in height rankings. On average, five-year-olds in Britain are up to 2.7 inches shorter than in comparable wealthy nations like the Netherlands, experts revealed. The trend has been described as 'pretty startling', with British youngsters 'falling behind' European kids and dropping 30 places down international height charts since 1985...Professor Tim Cole, an expert in child growth rates at the Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, University College London, explained that height is a clear indicator of living conditions."

Children raised under UK austerity shorter than European peers, study finds
"...British children who grew up during the years of austerity are shorter than their peers in Bulgaria, Montenegro and Lithuania, a study has found. In 1985, British boys and girls ranked 69 out of 200 countries for average height aged five. At the time they were on average 111.4cm and 111cm tall respectively. Now, British boys are 102nd and girls 96th, with the average five-year-old boy measuring 112.5cm and the average girl, 111.7cm. In Bulgaria, the average height for a five-year-old boy is 121cm and a girl, 118cm. Experts have said a poor national diet and cuts to the NHS are to blame. But they have also pointed out that height is a strong indicator of general living conditions, including illness and infection, stress, poverty and sleep quality."

"...“Children in the poorest areas of England are both fatter and significantly shorter than those in the richest areas at age 10 to 11,” said Henry Dimbleby, the former government food adviser.“This is a big enough problem to have an impact at an international level.”"
I'm mindful of the data in this study, they are looking to privatise the NHS, the big gene therapy push has begun rolling out also, new obesity drugs need to be sold etc, the British establishment are pumping rage bait the last few years to get people to lash out on top of this.

What height are they at 21-24 for example is more instructive, data on how many people are over 6ft would be interesting also, do we have more or less than the past in the USA and UK over 6ft per 1000, sure the average height has gone down but the population has increased significantly. This applies to IQ also, if we have more in the higher IQ ranges per 1000 people relative to the past.
Don't get me wrong we have issues but some positives can be found.
The ruling classes way to deal with the mess they created and profited from is depopulation events, elevated tryptophan hydroxylase could well the be one of the main players in this mass psychosis, they are back beating the genetic sequencing drums also, GWAS etc, questions still not been asked as to what powers the instructive entity that is DNA, having more capacitance present within tissues should allow for more "memory search" and expression of the genome, this creates a feedback loop between DNA and the electromagnetic current generating momentum increasing expression.

For example Jeremy Levine has good talks on voltage charge present in cells, this voltage of cells in its entirety must create a full body resonant effect, billions of cells with a current ready to be released, a resonant environment for maximum expression, every experience allows for a pool of electromagnetism to be pulled from and built upon. Cells may even pass charge to other cells to try correct them, more cells fully charged more power?
 
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haidut

haidut

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While I don't believe anyone should be abused for being overweight the fat shaming narrative has shifted to not allowing any critique of weight gain

The exact same technique is being used with the LGBTQ+ movement - i.e. the rising rates of homosexuality and transgenderism are obviously linked to environmental degradation (deliberate poisoning even, maybe?) yet the population is not allowed to critique or questions it along the lines of "wait a minute, what happened in such a short time-span to have these rates rise so much?". The rising rates are solid proof the whole thing is not genetic, yet the narrative is always "born this way" when it comes to sexuality...but it somehow becomes all about "choice" when it comes to gender. I think the elite is getting lost in their Hegelian maze. They always try to promote an opposite to gets its opposite as an outcome, yet somehow end up making things more psychotic and metabolically unstable.
 

ursidae

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Gotta account for the fact that white anglo men are choosing to have children with tiny neotenous east and southeast asian women en masse. UK, Canada, west coast USA, Australia will be HAPA by 2060. It might take other white countries 10-15 years longer because their men don't select for neoteny as aggressively as anglo men do.
 

Liam311

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From metabolic perspective, Broda Barnes pointed out that impaired thyroid function can result in reduced height. But he also pointed that, conversely, the opposite can also be true, hypo people growing taller than if they weren't hypo. Anecdotally I have observed this, people seemingly hypo but growing like weeds. You pointed out dairy consumption in the dutch and montenegrin mtn people as potentially being explanatory of height, and I think you are right --- but dairy consumption per capita in the US is up over the past 20 years, so as you say it likely is a result of something else. Substantially reduced T levels resulting from elevated bmi, environmental toxins, and increased drug use.
Interesting point from Broda Barnes. I can't help but notice how tall this current generation is.
 

BrianF

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I don't disagree with the premise of this study but being from the UK (the best part which is Scotland but lived in London for around 20 years in total), there's a few things I must question about this study.

Firstly, the use of the term 'austerity' is misleading and its meaning differs depending upon the political agenda of the person using it. The UK benefit sytem has been very generous and until the last few years easily gave more than enough to feed, clothe and heat. The British have largely forgotten how to cook or decided its too much trouble. This is a cultural issue. The least expensive way to eat in the UK is still the way my mother fed me and my two 6 foot plus brothers. Potatoes, inexpensive meat, eggs, milk and cheese. Some people are struggling to feed theur kids on processed foods yet can't / won't feed them on still affordable, basic foods.

Secondly, I'm around 6'3 and I don't stand out as excessively tall anywhere in the UK these days, especially in the company of younger people (but i used to). So I'm wondering if there is something off in the methodology of the this study, leading to point three..

Thirdly, a lot of children included in this study could be first generation immigrants (or even second) from the third-world. We often criticise immigrants for not integrating into society but in my opinion, that's largely not true, especially when it comes fast food and the other slovenly habits increasingly favoured buy the natives! The phrase 'its emptier than a MacDonald's during ramadan' is being heard more often than our pc overlords would like and there's an actual truth there!
 
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EustaceBagge

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Gotta account for the fact that white anglo men are choosing to have children with tiny neotenous east and southeast asian women en masse. UK, Canada, west coast USA, Australia will be HAPA by 2060. It might take other white countries 10-15 years longer because their men don't select for neoteny as aggressively as anglo men do.
Yes, but if you compare UK to Netherlands, Netherlands has more immigrants yet less drastic reduction in height. Unless I'm mistaken somewhere, the hypothesis that diet is important (the most important factor) holds true.

I believe that if you give Asians a proper meat and milk diet for 1-2 generations, they can literally transform. It wouldn't take longer than that.

If I only had this knowledge in early puberty...

From metabolic perspective, Broda Barnes pointed out that impaired thyroid function can result in reduced height. But he also pointed that, conversely, the opposite can also be true, hypo people growing taller than if they weren't hypo. Anecdotally I have observed this, people seemingly hypo but growing like weeds. You pointed out dairy consumption in the dutch and montenegrin mtn people as potentially being explanatory of height, and I think you are right --- but dairy consumption per capita in the US is up over the past 20 years, so as you say it likely is a result of something else. Substantially reduced T levels resulting from elevated bmi, environmental toxins, and increased drug use.
Yes, castrato usually grow taller than regular men, which is interesting. I think that heightgrowth should be valued within the context of having thick wrists and wide clavicles. That is a strong man.
 
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shucknchuck

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US heights began falling exactly at 1970, which was also exactly when wages started declining
european heights also began to fall around 1970, even though immigration was almost zero around this date

IQs of ethnic Norwegian males have also been dropping since the 1970s




These facts upset a large portion of white supremacists, because they prove that most, if not all of their advantage can be chalked up to the simple circumstance of being rich.
Isn't the ability for a whole nation to obtain wealth (even the lowest "social castes"), partially correlated with IQ?

The West identified the following virtues, that are very convincing forces for personal success:
"The cardinal virtues are four virtues of mind and character in both classical philosophy and Christian theology. They are prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. They form a virtue theory of ethics."

IDK what white-supremacists say, but I think it's important to note that IQ itself doesn't have to be static (I think that's pretty antithetical to their belief about race and IQ), but is created by a combo of factors, most of which are intentionally controlled for by man. In this regard, Western society (white people world) has truly made the most of itself, while most other cultures self-admittedly seem lacking.
 
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shucknchuck

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Ray said that he grew an inch after taking thyroid for a decade (40 to 50 years of age).
 
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