Protein Quality, Not Genes, Determine Male Height

[jaa]

Yes, it's the latter. I am not that crazy :)
But the question still remains. If nature intended for genes to matter that much and be shaped over billions of years of evolution with so much "cost", why allow something as simple as protein quality over a single lifespan completely negate the potential of genes (acquired over billions of years) for something as genetically-driven as height? If environment drives even such heavily genetically-driven features as height then the argument for disease-specific genes is much more difficult to defend.

Sorry I misunderstood your position. I think our positions are pretty closely aligned, but not quite sure because of the terminology being used. Could you point out what you think is wrong in my post here?

 

[Squatrat]

Well, it may be obvious to some people but the mainstream medical opinion is still heavily focused on genes. Hence, studies like this.

Looking at my family which is diverse in size, I'd argue genes gives you a "starting point" but diet can affect height +- 3 inches.

 

[haidut]

Sorry I misunderstood your position. I think our positions are pretty closely aligned, but not quite sure because of the terminology being used. Could you point out what you think is wrong in my post here?

When I click on the link to the argument nothing happens...

 

[yerrag]

Well, living in mountains certainly adds more than just protein quality as I mentioned in my post. CO2 is one big factor. But the Dutch live in one of the countries with the lowest elevation above sea level. In fact, some parts of the country are below sea level. So, apparently, elevation does not play that big of a role, at least for them.
Not sure what else is at play, I would like to see more studies like this try to isolate variable. The study on B&H claims to control for many factors and they are pretty confident it is the protein quality that controls genetic expression of height.

Another factoid going for milk. Chinese, which constitutes a large majority of Singapore population, generally don't drink milk. It doesn't help also that many Chinese are lactose-intolerant.

 

[jaa]

When I click on the link to the argument nothing happens...

Oops try the following

Rates Of Diabetes I And II Are Rapidly Rising In Young Children And Teens

 

[haidut]

Oops try the following

Rates Of Diabetes I And II Are Rapidly Rising In Young Children And Teens

I just responded.

 

[milk_lover]

Nice, how much milk do you think you consume on a daily basis? Is it mostly camel/goat milk or cow milk as well? Do you buy it in the store or get it from desert shepherds?

growing up, we used to have a farm with camels and goats so the milk was sourced from it, but the last ten years I almost drink cow milk inclusively and I buy it from the store. On average, 2 liters of milk daily.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

The traditional masai men are known to be quite tall, and their diet consists mainly of meat and dairy as well.

Some claims about the Masai debunked here:

 

[Atalanta]

I can attest to that. My whole tribe in this generation are short and I may be the tallest one because of my crazy milk drinking habit since childhood (I am only 182 cm) but my grandfathers were taller than me.. All they ate are lamb, Arabic coffee, dates and camel/goat milk. Even my nephews and nieces are encouraged by their families to drink milk to grow tall like milk_lover's real name lol and I am serious!

I can attest to the opposite.

I come from a tall family and I have quite a few biological relatives who are very tall (over 6 feet 3) and while growing up, they/we were mostly starch/vegetable/fruit eaters with small amounts of animal protein(mostly fish and chicken) and little to no milk for most. My brothers, who are over 6 feet tall, hated milk and never drank it. My grandfather did not drink much milk as a child and he was about 6'5" tall. My mother is tall and she did not drink much milk while growing up. Same for my father. I drank more milk than my parents and I am shorter than both of them. I have nephews who are several inches over six feet tall, some drank milk, some didn't. I see no connection at all between milk drinking and height in my family.

I think for us, it is clearly genetics and only severe malnutrition would have made a difference.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

There was a dutch study showing that adult height was predicated on the ratio of dairy protein to wheat protein. The higher the ratio of dairy to wheat protein the greater the adult height reached, in general.

 

[yerrag]

I can attest to the opposite.

I come from a tall family and I have quite a few biological relatives who are very tall (over 6 feet 3) and while growing up, they/we were mostly starch/vegetable/fruit eaters with small amounts of animal protein(mostly fish and chicken) and little to no milk for most. My brothers, who are over 6 feet tall, hated milk and never drank it. My grandfather did not drink much milk as a child and he was about 6'5" tall. My mother is tall and she did not drink much milk while growing up. Same for my father. I drank more milk than my parents and I am shorter than both of them. I have nephews who are several inches over six feet tall, some drank milk, some didn't. I see no connection at all between milk drinking and height in my family.

I think for us, it is clearly genetics and only severe malnutrition would have made a difference.

Perhaps it wasn't so much milk as what's contained in the milk. I think about calcium in the water. Over where I'm at, in Manila, and pretty much the whole of Philippines AFAIK, water is soft and contains few minerals. But in other places such as certain areas in Italy,France, England and Switzerland, water would be much harder and would contain a lot of calcium and magnesium. I wonder whether your water is mineral rich. What is your water like? What is the TDS (total dissolved solids)? What about the water where your parents grew up in? Is it any much different than your water?

 

[zztr]

Mongolians should be very tall if height is a simple matter of protein. They have guzzled milk and meat for the last thousand years. Mongolians happen to be a rather handsome people, but they are not notably tall.

 

[yerrag]

Mongolians should be very tall if height is a simple matter of protein. They have guzzled milk and meat for the last thousand years. Mongolians happen to be a rather handsome people, but they are not notably tall.

They would be known for drinking milk and eating meat, but my impression is that the landscape and terrain does not offer them much as compared to other areas of the world, and the place is not exactly the proverbial land of milk of honey. They may drink milk and eat meat, but I'm not sure they eat out of plenty.

But, I'm just stating my impression of Mongolia and I admit I've not been there, so I would likely be off in my assumptions.

 

[Richiebogie]

The reason I subscribe to the idea that genetics also plays a role is that it's the scientific consensus.

What a poisonous phrase...

"Scientific Consensus" = politically correct = factually false.

 

[zztr]

Are notably taller people healthier? The tall seem to die much younger from what I've read. Anecdotally, you literally never see tall 80 year olds. Is there a link to hormonal problems and being much over 6 feet? I might guess the optimal height for males is somewhere between 5'9 and 6'1.

 

[yerrag]

Are notably taller people healthier? The tall seem to die much younger from what I've read. Anecdotally, you literally never see tall 80 year olds. Is there a link to hormonal problems and being much over 6 feet? I might guess the optimal height for males is somewhere between 5'9 and 6'1.

That seems to be the case. I've been thinking, if height isn't so directly related to genes, but appears to be related to genes, is it possible to relate this to the frame - the skeletal structure and the support needed for this frame to be large (and tall)? Protein quality is important, but does not in itself determine height. Since bone is composed largely of calcium (I guess), it would need a lifetime of calcium supply, especially in the growing years, to provide the frame with material. Since to simply attribute the frame to calcium is rather simplistic, one may want to consider the role of trace minerals as well - in the sense of 'additives' when making a strong structure from cement to form concrete.

What if these "trace minerals" were transmitted from mother to offspring (through the placenta), and not by the father (as he simply contributes a tiny sperm), and that these trace minerals provided a key ingredient to building height, and is actualized when the offspring develops during its growth years with adequate quality protein, plenty of calcium (thru milk or water sources), and an environment that is free of stress?

It may seem implausible that the father contributes little to height, but it may just seem so because the maternal transmittal of "trace minerals" becomes evident only when the offspring grows up in a locale that has a different set of conditions that is far different from the environment in which the parents were raised, one that is conducive to height maximization.

[I don't want to bore you with koi talk, but I only say this about the effect of trace minerals because I fed my koi with trace mineral additives, and didn't feed food with very high protein percentages, but still made sure it was quality protein, together with coconut meat, a quality fat. And my koi grew long and had bulk, and looked rather like a koi imported grown by a Japanese breeder. I was able to achieve this growth despite talk that it is very difficult to grow koi this large in a tropical environment, because putatively the weather was not conducive to it, and also that koi are 4-season fish, and would not develop well in a tropical climate.

My koi are my 'rats.' I want to test feeding them with more gelatin as well, to preserve the youth of their skin. I also am interested in testing out "Blocking Serotonin Extends Youthfulness by 40%" on them. By extending their youthfulness, koi will remain beautiful longer and the quality of their skin will be kept from declining.]

Just a thought.

 

[jaa]

What a poisonous phrase...

"Scientific Consensus" = politically correct = factually false.

Not nearly as poisonous as the opposite belief. Go ahead and shun the scientific consensus throughout your life and see where you end up. You'll be a climate change denying, flat earth loving, fairy-tale believing awful arbiter of evidence subject to fall for any level of deceit of wishful thinking be it by others or yourself.

 

[Richiebogie]

@jaa, the lesson from Ray Peat and this forum is to do your own research as vested interests, perverse incentives and a groupthink echo chamber effect abound in biology, medicine, politics, etc etc.

 

[jaa]

@jaa, the lesson from Ray Peat and this forum is to do your own research as vested interests, perverse incentives and a groupthink echo chamber effect abound in biology, medicine, politics, etc etc.

Sure and that's all well and good, but the world is infinitely complex and human brainpower and time is extremely finite. Do you have the time to reach a similar plane of knowledge as experts in a given field? Have you undertaken such efforts? If not, then it's worthwhile to consider that they may be using information unknown to you and likely have much better reasons for their opinions in areas where your opinions differ.

You said ""Scientific Consensus" = politically correct = factually false."

While it's true that the scientific models of today are just that and are almost assuredly false in the sense they could use refinement, their still likely less false than any other theory. The implicit meaning behind your statement is poisonous in that it discredits the very methods and institutions that allowed humanity to reach the knowledge peak we currently stand on in favour of whatever the believer of the statement wishes to be true.

 

[sladerunner69]

Well this doesn't explain why my younger brother, who has never thought twice about what he eats, is an inch taller than I am. Growing up, he probably ate fast food like taco bell or mcdonalds or carls junior at least once a day. The rest of his meals were toast, bagels, hot pockets, frozen meals, chef boyardee, candy. These days his diet is comparably more nutritious, but he does not eat a significant amount of animal protein that much is clear.

On the contrary I have been bodybuilding since i was 14 and fastidiously consuming large quantities of protein. For years I ate 6 egg yolks a day, protein powder 2-3 times a day, chicken breast, some nonfat milk, low fat cottage cheese,etc etc. I probably averaged 200-250g of protein a day for years in search of a large muscular physique, and I sure got it. My shoulders are very broad, I have thick arms especially my forearms and people frequently ask if I know anything about steroids. I probably would have got bigger too if I didn't take propecia and nearly fall dead.

Also, I have more masculine facial features and am hairier, but for some reason my brother is still taller....

This had me thinking height must be mostly genetic. Maybe it's just a case of an outlier.