Has Anyone Managed To Go From High Cortisol To A Normal Thyroid Functioning Body

[Simonsays]

Hi everyone,

Ive posted a few times but not really about my own hypo health issues.

Im a bit intimidated as this place is full of very knowledgeable scientific/biological posters and i struggle to take it all in. Its not my strength im afraid.

Im a 51 year old hypothyroid male (diagnosed in early 30s) and discovered Ray Peat about a year ago. What drove it was my increasing rosacea and through research led me to Ray and how its all related to hypothyroidism.

Im hoovering up as much as i can from the various posts and threads.

One that struck home massively was one of Haiduts about exposure to a mothers cortisol in the womb. This would correlate to other research quoted in a psychological book i read that cortisol can be set in early childhood like a thermostat either high or low for life. My mother was a highly stressed woman who had her thyroid zapped a few years prior to my birth and she told me was she was very anxious when she was carrying me.

I believe i have suffered high cortisol since birth. I was chubby and continued to gain weight around midriff into childhood/teenage years/adulthood. My sister was slim and has always been . I sucked my thumb, comforter etc then later solid smoker all forms of anxiety relief.

I have had a saliva test last year showing raised cortisol falling through the day but always above range.

So my question is it really possible at my age or any age for that matter to transform to normal thyroid function if cortisol has been set high since i first entered this world??

 

[Tarmander]

In my own experience, supplements are awesome for the short term and making sure you're getting all the needed nutrients. In the long term, you really cannot supplement/diet away a stressful environment. If you spend all day in an air conditioned room, under florescent lights, and staring at a screen...well I think supplements will only help you so much in that stressful environment. I would use this forum to experiment and change your environment into one that is low in stress. One of the best things I did was load up on supplements for a short period of time just to feel what it is like to be in a low stress inner environment. I then use that to guide me in making decisions going forward.

 

[Simonsays]

Thanks Tarmader,

I do have a stressful job, which i am seriously reassessing. I am trying to lose weight through low fat diet and help liver. Can i ask you what supplements did you use. What were your major issues? Apologies if youve stated this all before.

 

[Brian]

If you have been hypothyroid for a very long time I think one of the first things to focus on should be raising intracellular magnesium.

The strategy I've found to be fairly fast and effective on myself without using thyroid that I think would also work with a lot of people is to keep the body hot enough to sweat for hours per day through some means while sipping on water or juice with a food grade magnesium chloride and a small amount of sodium bicarbonate added throughout the day. This seems to help the magnesium ions effectively enter the cell even though ATP and thyroid might be low by increasing interstitial fluid flow and evaporation rate. Getting the body this warm can usually be accomplished by simply sitting outside during the summer combined with some walks during the hotter hours of the day. A comfortably hot sauna could work as well when the weather isn't hot enough, but there are obviously additional benefits to getting sun each day. Topical Magnesium Chloride (while being hot enough to sweat) and hot epsom salt/baking soda baths are additional cheap, but effective ways to get it in.

Since it can be hard to find the right dose to supplement thyroid when intracellular magnesium is low, I think this can at least be considered a way to prepare the body for thyroid supplementation by first raising magnesium to a decent level.

This method will take time, but I think overall it will begin to show results within a week for most people in the form of lowered cortisol, prolactin, PTH, estrogen, and better glucose utilization through oxidative metabolism.

A very pure form of food grade magnesium chloride that I would recommend is Greenway Biotech. Magnesium Chloride USP - 100% Edible - Pharmaceutical Grade

 

[Simonsays]

Thanks Brian,

I have just recently started using a magnesium oil spray in the mornings and before bed and do take epsom salt baths but infrequently. I also upped my salt intake. I dont know if it is related but my chronic lethargy in the mornings seems to be lifting.

In recent months ive developed missed heartbeats and Ive always suffered muscle twitching and i understand that can be a symptom of magnesium / potassium deficiency.

 

[Stilgar]

I would consider looking over your history to see how you can systemically drive serotonin down. We are all different, probably lots of us had stressful mothers. I know mine was definitely protein deficient, low thyroid and quite estrogenic. I think it makes a difference, because it affects how you grow up too - that influence around you all the time as your body and mind are developing. More crucially, I feel, is that you develop bad habits. For instance, I crave starch meals and sugar, and never protein, because I was never raised on it. When I eat enough protein, I am like a different person. I can literally feel the serotonin disappearing. But somehow, it is still a daily struggle.

Do you do ok with dairy?

I would consider p5p. B6 drives magnesium into the cell, and powerfully lowers cortisol. B6 can't work without sufficient protein, since it is required in proportion to protein intake, so 80-100g of protein a day, and a good hit of sugar alongside that. You can use p5p to avoid negative reactions to tryptophan whilst you get your protein level up to good success.

I would also consider how much sun exposure you get. Vitamin D and sunlight can be crucial for lowering cortisol.

I agree that de-stressing your life is important. You can get stuck in routine easily in that state and never have the energy for much else. I think it helps to lower the serotonin temporarily (if not forever) to facilitate new directions and changes and fun.

If all else fails, LSD.

 

[Simonsays]

Thanks Stilgar,

I do ok with dairy. But i think i went Peat diet mad at first (like a lot i understand) cutting out this piling into that, without really looking into things, i realise its a lot more than milk and orange juice. My lifestyle stunk, stress and diet wise, it still is to a certain extent, which ive addressed in part .

The p5p arrived this morning. I might pass on the LSD, just HCl pepsin for low stomach acid.

 

[Footscray]

Thanks for the questions and the answers guys. I'm newish but although I 'get it', I just 'don't get it' too. Stress is my natural reaction to every thing in life. At 44 and a few issues starting to crop up, it's time I 'get it'. So thanks I am learning much.

 

[Simonsays]

Hi Footscray,

Stress is my natural reaction to every thing in life

I can echo that, recently when ive been socialising with friends to de stress, ive been getting more stressed than my bog normal high stress.

I know its a lot do with my personality, not just life events. Its how you react to them.

In general, I need to talk when around people not relax and dominate the conversation as normal, dont listen, need to control, disclose too much or say something inappropriate, especially when anxious, that then makes me even more stressed.

I can recognise it in others too, but its very difficult to change, even when you are aware of doing it. I stop and think to myself , ive done it again!

 

[Interactome]

I would consider p5p. B6 drives magnesium into the cell, and powerfully lowers cortisol. B6 can't work without sufficient protein, since it is required in proportion to protein intake, so 80-100g of protein a day, and a good hit of sugar alongside that.

Hi. Why is sufficient protein necessary when taking B6? I get toxicity symptoms from taking B6 and still haven't found out why.

 

[Stilgar]

Hi. Why is sufficient protein necessary when taking B6? I get toxicity symptoms from taking B6 and still haven't found out why.

I think balancing protein intake, thyroid function and vitamin A, D (and E, K) could be more useful if you are struggling to use B6 properly. B6 has a quick correcting effect if it is required, so pursuing it isn't wise if it creates very negative reactions in my experience.

B6 is required in proportion to the rate of protein synthesis - so, Vitamin A, which stimulates protein synthesis, can be short if B6 isn't working, as can protein itself, since B6 without protein is like fire without fuel - pointless and potentially dangerous. Complex enzymatic reactions and the synthesis of steroids require B6 (and Vitamin A), so hence needing protein with it. Good protein consumption also lowers serotonin excess and B6 encourages tryptophan to niacin, so is very anti-inflammatory - if the protein is provided in sufficient quantity in the first place. It need not be excessive, but to use B6 (or B6 containing food), protein intake should be 70-100g, or else it is probably not necessary. If neither of those, thyroid function should probably be examined more closely, zinc or riboflavin could be short, which are co-factors in the conversion of B6 to P5P.

And enough sugar to back up all that protein, of course.

Could you give an example of your current daily diet?

 

[Tarmander]

Thanks Tarmader,

I do have a stressful job, which i am seriously reassessing. I am trying to lose weight through low fat diet and help liver. Can i ask you what supplements did you use. What were your major issues? Apologies if youve stated this all before.

Hey Simon. I never saw this post. Sometimes I am away from the forums for a couple days and if you don't quote me I don't see the response. You can check out my log for a list of supplements I have tried and what my take on them was. I have tried most everything and settled on b1, b3, zinc, theanine, and cinnamon as my daily supplements. Not very complex really. I do aspirin a couple times a week and some other stuff once in awhile, like taurine or estroban or MB.

 

[Interactome]

I think balancing protein intake, thyroid function and vitamin A, D (and E, K) could be more useful if you are struggling to use B6 properly. B6 has a quick correcting effect if it is required, so pursuing it isn't wise if it creates very negative reactions in my experience.

B6 is required in proportion to the rate of protein synthesis - so, Vitamin A, which stimulates protein synthesis, can be short if B6 isn't working, as can protein itself, since B6 without protein is like fire without fuel - pointless and potentially dangerous. Complex enzymatic reactions and the synthesis of steroids require B6 (and Vitamin A), so hence needing protein with it. Good protein consumption also lowers serotonin excess and B6 encourages tryptophan to niacin, so is very anti-inflammatory - if the protein is provided in sufficient quantity in the first place. It need not be excessive, but to use B6 (or B6 containing food), protein intake should be 70-100g, or else it is probably not necessary. If neither of those, thyroid function should probably be examined more closely, zinc or riboflavin could be short, which are co-factors in the conversion of B6 to P5P.

And enough sugar to back up all that protein, of course.

Could you give an example of your current daily diet?

Thanks for the reply. It's a really complicated mess that I'm trying to decode, apparently by making things systematically worse.

I messed around with supplements (K2, Mg, B3, B6, E, high C, bicarbonate, aspirin), fasting and low protein, high fruit diet a few times in the past which was when things got really deranged.

Right now I try to get about 4 meals/day:

- 2 meals: meat + starch + vegetable
- 2 meals: dairy + fruit (smoothie)

where

- Meat: chicken breast, chicken liver, beef stake, a few eggs / week.
- Starch: potatoes/polenta/white rice
- Fruit: bananas, berries, mango --- oranges make my esophagitis and stomach worse (nausea)
- Dairy: .5-1 L full fat milk/cheese/kefir/whey --- all goat, as cow dairy makes my circulation to my feet worse (leaky gut)
- vegetables: red pepper, pickles, squash, a bit of salad


Supplements
It freaked me out for some months when I first developed B6 toxicity (burning hands + feet) while taking a B complex (10mg B6) a few years ago. I thought I had MS. A year later a neuro prescribed a B1/B6/B12 combo with 100 mg B6 and my hands and feet started burning a few days later. That's when I realised that it's the B6 and stopped it. Some months later I tried the P5P version for 2 days, and it wasn't good either. I haven't taken any B6 for 6 months now.

Latest lab values show high cortisol, renin, and P5P:

- Cortisol: 450 nmol/24h (100-379) --- same 9 months ago
- Renin: 83 uUI/ml (2.8-39.9) --- 9 months ago it was 113
- P5P: 150 nmol/L (35-110) --- so I must have had too high B6 for the past 2 years at least

An Organic Acids Test shows, among others, low B2 (glutaric), low B6 (pyridoxic), low B9 (high Uracil), very low vit C, high HVA/VMA ratio.

I understand now that the low pyridoxic is due to the low B2, but B2 (R5P) doesn't do any wonders. If anything it makes me feel worse. So I'm thinking now that it too must depend on something. I took 1-2 mg 5-MTHF for a few weeks recently which seems to help a bit (compound hetero 677 + 1298 MTHFR). I'm thinking if I should megadose that for longer...

So
- B6 => toxicity --- maybe I should measure vit A levels somehow?
- B3 => increased thirst --- so maybe the Niacin conversion w B6 is not good for me?
- vit C => increased thirst
- K2 => I really think it causes blood clots in me; a heart echo + EKG showed that + slight insufficiency + bicuspid, hence the aspirin + fasting mess-up 1 year ago

 

[Stilgar]

Have you tried magnesium, thyroid or extra salt? I have found personally that almost all supplements react poorly when magnesium retention is poor. B6 needs magnesium, for example, as does riboflavin, niacin, K etc. It can feel like each is having certain reactions, but the effects can often be the same. All stress hormones will increase if thyroid function is low. Riboflavin conversion is directly related to thyroid function, as is B6 most likely, so upping thyroid function via magnesium can help that.

Temporarily removing calcium to improve magnesium retention, adding magnesium sources (either food based or a gentle supplement such as magnesium bicarbonate), salt, a little thyroid and keeping blood sugar steady should help. Then add back in calcium rich protein once you are feeling better and your pulse is high.

 

[Interactome]

Have you tried magnesium, thyroid or extra salt? I have found personally that almost all supplements react poorly when magnesium retention is poor. B6 needs magnesium, for example, as does riboflavin, niacin, K etc. It can feel like each is having certain reactions, but the effects can often be the same. All stress hormones will increase if thyroid function is low. Riboflavin conversion is directly related to thyroid function, as is B6 most likely, so upping thyroid function via magnesium can help that.

Temporarily removing calcium to improve magnesium retention, adding magnesium sources (either food based or a gentle supplement such as magnesium bicarbonate), salt, a little thyroid and keeping blood sugar steady should help. Then add back in calcium rich protein once you are feeling better and your pulse is high.

I tried this:
Mega-Mag, Natural Ionic Magnesium with Trace Minerals, 400 mg, 4 fl oz (118 ml): Amazon.co.uk: Health & Personal Care

But it increases my thirst. I think it's because it raises Renin somehow. I also think that the increased Renin is behind my vein tissue edema and slight heart muscle hypertrophy which I don't know how to reverse. Or that's what I think my swollen veins mean after talking to an urologist... vein muscles do not contract that well in several places perhaps due to local edema.

I've been trying to increase NaCl the past few days, but I don't know if that will lead to more tissue edema or not... It should lower Renin, but what if lack of NaCl is not the main reason for the high Renin, will I make it worse?

Cortisol, I read, works a bit like Aldosterone, so they both cause Na retention and excretion of the other minerals. Should one then supplement NaCl... or not? And how could one rebalance intracellular minerals if eating K and Mg increases the "bad" hormones...?

I'm waiting for rT3 (hopefully next week) as the others were normal:

- FT3 3.5 pg/ml (2.3-4.2)
- FT4 1.17 bg/dl (0.89-1.76)
- TSH 1.17 ng/dl (0.55-4.78)

Total bilirubin is also high.

 

[Simonsays]

@Tarmander Thanks for that.

Im struggling with missed heartbeats at the moment. They are becoming a regular daily occurrence and seem to come in waves then disappear.

Ive been on t4 for a long time. I havent tried t3, s i fear my body wont cope. Ive changed my diet significantly. Im losing fat i think, my latest shorts are getting loose , but my weight seems to stay the same? Maybe my metabolism is improving and this is causing the missed beats??

But my last blood test my TSH 8.4 . My free T4 19.5. So it seems i have plenty of t4 sloshing around, but the TSH figure???

The magnesium spray and tablets seem to have helped my insomnia and chronic tiredness, but now i get the regular waking at 5 every morning , quick slug of salted OJ and off i go. But this points to the liver not being able to store glucose?? Which considering ive been doing a low fat pro liver diet is really disappointing.

I take @haiduts Vitamin B Energin supplement and the Vit E ( to help with the fat loss) . I think i might have over done the E though taking it on several days in succession, can it cause missed heartbeats??

I fear the real reason is long term hypothyroidism has taken its toll on the heart (valves) , liver fibrotic??, as per Ray ?? My nose definitely has signs of rhinophyma. (Rosacea) Thicker and waxier, always spots . I was getting the red flushed spotty face and this has definitely helped by "carrot salad" .

I suffer regular coated tongue, tonsil stones, which i think points to intestine bacteria problems .

My daily head sweats indicate adrenaline??

Maybe its time to try t3 , but as said i am worried about getting worse symptoms if the body is so adrenalised.

I ordered some Progest E early in my Peat days, so to speak without researching more and my heart went off like a rocket. It took a bout half an hour to subside.

Im at a loss and worrying with the constant missed beats. Sorry for the rambling post all over the place.

All theories/ advice welcomed!!

 

[Simonsays]

However, something interesting happened the other day. I tried half a dose of haidut's vitamin E product and later that day I had the same kind of heart palpitations I'd had from NDT. I didn't think anything of it at first, it was only when I had the same amount of vitamin e a few days later and the same thing occurred that I thought it was more than a coincidence. These palpitations happened the same way as when I was taking NDT, a small amount of acute mental stress would tend to trigger them.

My question is, is it possible that vitamin E could somehow be causing my heart palpitations, by lowering cortisol too much for example or through some other mechanism. Thanks.

I just read this on Sorens post . Could it be due to increased metabolism and too much Vit E??

 

[Interactome]

My daily head sweats indicate adrenaline??

Maybe its time to try t3 , but as said i am worried about getting worse symptoms if the body is so adrenalised.

I ordered some Progest E early in my Peat days, so to speak without researching more and my heart went off like a rocket. It took a bout half an hour to subside.

Im at a loss and worrying with the constant missed beats. Sorry for the rambling post all over the place.

All theories/ advice welcomed!!

From my experience with all my issues so far, stress leads one down a dark rabbit hole, especially when ones health is already compromised in various ways, and supplements can do more harm than good if one doesn't know exactly what they're doing and what ones current state is.

My advice would be, take one supplement at a time and start at a lower dose. And try to accept the situation as it won't go away by stressing over it. I'm telling myself this too, but I forget and stress again later.

Have you had an echochardiogram? Any insufficiency or hypertrophy?

 

[Simonsays]

Have you had an echochardiogram? Any insufficiency or hypertrophy?

Im awaiting the results of a 24hr ECG test. I think i may have overdone it with the Vit E and this aggravated a condition that has been developing for about 6 months now.

 

[Hebe]

Red cheeks, abdominal weight, high cortisol - have you been tested for Cushing’s disease?