Cells Have Memory, And Memories Of Past Conditions Affect Future Response

haidut

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This study looks at a concept that Peat has written a lot about and which has been largely ignored by mainstream medicine (in favor of genetic explanations) - epigenetic cell memory. The study only looked at muscle cells but there is no reason to believe the same mechanism is not present in every other cell. The focus of the study was effects of anabolic steroids on (muscle) cell epigenetic memory, but other steroids like cortisol, estrogen, prolactin, HGH, etc all also perfectly capable of changing cell memory (in a negative way). This epigenetic "stress" memory has been confirmed by studies on Holocaust survivors and their offspring. The evidence so far points to a picture where the collective epigenetic memory of all cells and all environments experienced by organism throughout its lifetime (combined with the epigenetic memory of the preceding 2 generations) greatly affect the response of that organism to future conditions. Even if that epigenetic memory is "bad" it can still be changed with proper lifestyle/diet (or chemicals), but the amount of time required for a positive change will depend on how much "bad" memory has been accumulated. But regardless, there is no need to invoke genes in order to explain disease or, as in the study below, very high athletic performance.

Human Skeletal Muscle Possesses an Epigenetic Memory of Hypertrophy
2018 - Study proves ‘muscle memory’ exists at a DNA level

"...‌Using the latest genome wide techniques, the researchers from Keele, along with the Universities of Liverpool John Moores, Northumbria and Manchester Metropolitan, studied over 850,000 sites on human DNA and discovered the genes 'marked' or 'unmarked' with special chemical 'tags' when muscle grows following exercise, then returns back to normal and then grows again following exercise in later life. Known as epigenetic modifications, these ‘markers’ or ‘tags’ tell the gene whether it should be active or inactive, providing instructions to the gene to turn on or off without changing the DNA itself. Dr Adam Sharples, the senior and corresponding author of the study and Senior Lecturer in Cell and Molecular Muscle Physiology at Keele University and his PhD student Mr Robert Seaborne explained:
In this study, we’ve demonstrated the genes in muscle become more untagged with this epigenetic information when it grows following exercise in earlier life, importantly these genes remain untagged even when we lose muscle again, but this untagging helps ‘switch’ the gene on to a greater extent and is associated with greater muscle growth in response to exercise in later life - demonstrating an epigenetic memory of earlier life muscle growth!” The research has important implications in how athletes train, recover from injury, and also has potentially far-reaching consequences for athletes caught cheating. Dr Sharples explained:
“If an athlete’s muscle grows, and then they get injured and lose some muscle, it may help their later recovery if we know the genes responsible for muscle 'memory’. Further research will be important to understand how different exercise programmes can help activate these muscle memory genes.” Mr Seaborne continued:
If an elite athlete takes performance-enhancing drugs to put on muscle bulk, their muscle may retain a memory of this prior muscle growth. If the athlete is caught and given a ban - it may be the case that short bans are not adequate, as they may continue to be at an advantage over their competitors because they have taken drugs earlier in life, despite not taking drugs anymore. More research using drugs to build muscle, rather than exercise used in the present study, is required to confirm this.”
 

Fractality

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This proves the well known anecdotal experience of those in the AAS/bodybuilding community ("muscle memory"). Moving away from muscles for a second, how about reversing negative epigenetic psyche imprints? Would regular use of anti-cortisol, anti-serotonin compounds be worth experimenting?
 

haidut

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This proves the well known anecdotal experience of those in the AAS/bodybuilding community ("muscle memory"). Moving away from muscles for a second, how about reversing negative epigenetic psyche imprints? Would regular use of anti-cortisol, anti-serotonin compounds be worth experimenting?

That would be my guess. I think an antiserotonin and/or some steroids could be good choices. Progesterone and T seem to be very strong signals of a "good" environment, and not just for muscles. Thyroid is probably another such strong signal but I think blocking/lowering serotonin would be crucial as that chemical is involved in pretty much every negative metabolic process, including formation of traumatic memories. And if the brain is affected negatively then so is the entire body.
Serotonin Is Involved In The Formation Of Traumatic Memories
 

paymanz

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How long cells remember that data and what is the connection between cell memory and methylation?
 

haidut

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How long cells remember that data and what is the connection between cell memory and methylation?

Well, the "memory" they talk about is just methylation/demethylation of specific genes. I don't know how long in general this epigenetic "memory" can last but it clearly lasts months/years in their tests. This is why they are saying people who have been using AAS and are now clean are still at an unfair advantage compared to those who have not used steroids at all, because their cells remember the steroid use and their muscle will grow when they start training again.
 

Koveras

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Well, the "memory" they talk about is just methylation/demethylation of specific genes. I don't know how long in general this epigenetic "memory" can last but it clearly lasts months/years in their tests. This is why they are saying people who have been using AAS and are now clean are still at an unfair advantage compared to those who have not used steroids at all, because their cells remember the steroid use and their muscle will grow when they start training again.

Muscle memory has been shown to be due to the increased myonuclei associated with training or AAS as well - myonuclei which are not lost on detraining.

Myonuclei acquired by overload exercise precede hypertrophy and are not lost on detraining

Muscle memory and a new cellular model for muscle atrophy and hypertrophy

Screen Shot 2018-02-01 at 10.46.52 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-02-01 at 10.47.22 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-02-01 at 10.47.30 AM.png
 

haidut

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Right, but in this specific study I think they focused only on methylation/demethylation. I agree that there are other mechanisms as well.
 

mosaic01

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Haidut, which anti-serotonoergic agents would probably be most suitable to reverse some effects of psychological/emotional trauma?
 

haidut

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Haidut, which anti-serotonoergic agents would probably be most suitable to reverse some effects of psychological/emotional trauma?

Any anti-serotonin chemical should do. Most studies I have seen have been with 5-HT3 antagonists (ondansetron) and cyproheptadine. Notably, if ondansetron is used, studies found that only doses in the sub 4mg range had good effects. Higher doses were ineffective. So, the commonly available 8mg doses are too high. I think a good start would be 2mg once or twice daily, and same dose for cypro. Other non-selecive antagonists like methysergide or metergoline should also work.
 

mosaic01

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Interesting. I had positive results with cypro, but the effects become less pronounced after 1-2 weeks. I have some hydergin and have wondered if it could be used for this.
 

haidut

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Interesting. I had positive results with cypro, but the effects become less pronounced after 1-2 weeks. I have some hydergin and have wondered if it could be used for this.

It should work as well, but most ergot derivatives have some serotonergic effects as well. So, I would not use in higher doses if it is to be used long term.
 

Tarmander

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Would you mind explaining more about this @Tarmander?
The more thyroid I take, the more my past comes up and then disappears. Kind of an anti aging of the mind. Remember your mind when you were a child? Hope and looking towards the future. You did not have a past weighing you down, or experiences pulling your attention to them. Thyroid gives your cells energy to let go of these weights and turn their attention towards the now and the future.
 
L

lollipop

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The more thyroid I take, the more my past comes up and then disappears. Kind of an anti aging of the mind. Remember your mind when you were a child? Hope and looking towards the future. You did not have a past weighing you down, or experiences pulling your attention to them. Thyroid gives your cells energy to let go of these weights and turn their attention towards the now and the future.
Love it! I knew it was important to ask you...I started Tyromax about a month ago and seriously turned my lights on. Your explanation above adds another layer of why intuitively Thyroid makes sense for me...
 

Tarmander

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Love it! I knew it was important to ask you...I started Tyromax about a month ago and seriously turned my lights on. Your explanation above adds another layer of why intuitively Thyroid makes sense for me...
Wow that is great to hear! Glad you are liking Tyromax, I use it occassionally as well. I look at people who are in therapy for years and years, or constantly dealing with the same issue, moving no where. I know it is important to move through those things at your own pace, but I can't help but want to give them some thyroid to help them along :)
 
L

lollipop

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Wow that is great to hear! Glad you are liking Tyromax, I use it occassionally as well. I look at people who are in therapy for years and years, or constantly dealing with the same issue, moving no where. I know it is important to move through those things at your own pace, but I can't help but want to give them some thyroid to help them along :)
:): sooo get that wish to help them along. Thanks again @Tarmander!
 

Capt Nirvana

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This study looks at a concept that Peat has written a lot about and which has been largely ignored by mainstream medicine (in favor of genetic explanations) - epigenetic cell memory. The study only looked at muscle cells but there is no reason to believe the same mechanism is not present in every other cell. The focus of the study was effects of anabolic steroids on (muscle) cell epigenetic memory, but other steroids like cortisol, estrogen, prolactin, HGH, etc all also perfectly capable of changing cell memory (in a negative way). This epigenetic "stress" memory has been confirmed by studies on Holocaust survivors and their offspring. The evidence so far points to a picture where the collective epigenetic memory of all cells and all environments experienced by organism throughout its lifetime (combined with the epigenetic memory of the preceding 2 generations) greatly affect the response of that organism to future conditions. Even if that epigenetic memory is "bad" it can still be changed with proper lifestyle/diet (or chemicals), but the amount of time required for a positive change will depend on how much "bad" memory has been accumulated. But regardless, there is no need to invoke genes in order to explain disease or, as in the study below, very high athletic performance.

Human Skeletal Muscle Possesses an Epigenetic Memory of Hypertrophy
2018 - Study proves ‘muscle memory’ exists at a DNA level

"...‌Using the latest genome wide techniques, the researchers from Keele, along with the Universities of Liverpool John Moores, Northumbria and Manchester Metropolitan, studied over 850,000 sites on human DNA and discovered the genes 'marked' or 'unmarked' with special chemical 'tags' when muscle grows following exercise, then returns back to normal and then grows again following exercise in later life. Known as epigenetic modifications, these ‘markers’ or ‘tags’ tell the gene whether it should be active or inactive, providing instructions to the gene to turn on or off without changing the DNA itself. Dr Adam Sharples, the senior and corresponding author of the study and Senior Lecturer in Cell and Molecular Muscle Physiology at Keele University and his PhD student Mr Robert Seaborne explained:
In this study, we’ve demonstrated the genes in muscle become more untagged with this epigenetic information when it grows following exercise in earlier life, importantly these genes remain untagged even when we lose muscle again, but this untagging helps ‘switch’ the gene on to a greater extent and is associated with greater muscle growth in response to exercise in later life - demonstrating an epigenetic memory of earlier life muscle growth!” The research has important implications in how athletes train, recover from injury, and also has potentially far-reaching consequences for athletes caught cheating. Dr Sharples explained:
“If an athlete’s muscle grows, and then they get injured and lose some muscle, it may help their later recovery if we know the genes responsible for muscle 'memory’. Further research will be important to understand how different exercise programmes can help activate these muscle memory genes.” Mr Seaborne continued:
If an elite athlete takes performance-enhancing drugs to put on muscle bulk, their muscle may retain a memory of this prior muscle growth. If the athlete is caught and given a ban - it may be the case that short bans are not adequate, as they may continue to be at an advantage over their competitors because they have taken drugs earlier in life, despite not taking drugs anymore. More research using drugs to build muscle, rather than exercise used in the present study, is required to confirm this.”
Is it possible that mainstream scientists are taking apart the TV set to locate Jimmy Fallon or Conan O'Brien? Rupert Sheldrake seems to think so.
 

jaakkima

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Any anti-serotonin chemical should do. Most studies I have seen have been with 5-HT3 antagonists (ondansetron) and cyproheptadine. Notably, if ondansetron is used, studies found that only doses in the sub 4mg range had good effects. Higher doses were ineffective. So, the commonly available 8mg doses are too high. I think a good start would be 2mg once or twice daily, and same dose for cypro. Other non-selecive antagonists like methysergide or metergoline should also work.
Hi haidut, do you recall anything about the studies you were thinking of here? I didn't find anything searching so far. I just need to know if taking more than 4mg would not block endotoxin translocation. I experimented with more and it seemed to have more of an effect but hard to tell and I'm working on eradicating an unreal infection so it's the endotoxin I have to block. I'm wondering why they use such high doses for radiation treatment; it must work for the nausea/vomiting at least...
 

haidut

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Hi haidut, do you recall anything about the studies you were thinking of here? I didn't find anything searching so far. I just need to know if taking more than 4mg would not block endotoxin translocation. I experimented with more and it seemed to have more of an effect but hard to tell and I'm working on eradicating an unreal infection so it's the endotoxin I have to block. I'm wondering why they use such high doses for radiation treatment; it must work for the nausea/vomiting at least...

The studies on ondansetron doses below 4mg I was referring to were all about depression. I think the anti-endotoxin effects happen at any dose but with higher doses you also increase the risk for the (serious) QT prolongation.
 
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