Cat Cancer Treatment Help Please (dog Too)

Discussion in 'Animals' started by Nikki, Aug 4, 2016.

  1. narouz

    narouz Member

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    With that kind of extreme craving--of your cat for liver--
    maybe that points you in a good direction.
    Maybe you could look into a liquid vitamin A (like the one haidut sells)
    and apply it to your cat's gums...?
    I mean, as I've said with all these anti-carcinogens we know about regarding human use,
    research how it works with cats.
    But it is possible your cat might benefit from a walloping dosage in this situation.
    Peat has talked about using massive doses on himself, temporarily.
    I think in that context he was talking about when he was getting a lot of sunlight.
    And then--another context--when he had an oral pre-cancerous growth.

    haidut (it's always him, isn't it!) had, I think, a post which talked about how,
    in human use,
    vitamin A toxicity is much exaggerated...you might look into that as one data point.
    But I do realize that care must be taken with specific cat toxicities which different from human.
     
  2. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    Is it just a coincidence that most things which kill cancers are also anti-fungal?
    Patent WO2004054509A2 - Tetracyclines as anti-fungal agents for treatment of ringworm
    "Fungal growth is an important clinical problem, especially in patients whose immune system has been depressed. Liu et al. (Antimicro. Agents Chemo. 2002, 46: 1447) reported that chemically modified tetracycline (CMT)-3 is potent, in vitro, against filamentous fungi, including Microsporum canis, Trichophyton rubrum, Trichophyton mentagrophytes, and Trichophyton tonsurans. However there is no disclosure that CMT-3 is effective in vivo."

    By the way for those reading this thread know that some tetracyclines are taxing on the kidneys while others are not. Minocycline and doxycycline are not, but please double check before acting on this info. Since most cats middle age or older have renal disease (even if not detectabel on bloodwork) I would advise only using the types of tetracyclines (or other antibiotics) which do not hinder kidney function. I read that a study was to be conducted on minocycline's potential to prevent acute kidney disease after cardiac surgery. It looks like the study will not be done for some time. In any case, if they wanted to perform such a clinical trial, they must have a pretty good hunch they are going on.
     
  3. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    I added a whole capsule of D complex for humans to her meal yesterday. I have found info on correct and toxic doses of each fat soluble vitamin for dogs here: Fat Soluble Vitamins: Vitamin A, D, E, & K in Dogs Not finding it for cats as easily.

    Where do I find Haidut's page for products? I am sure he has the best vitamins and I would never second guess his picks!
     
  4. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    just in case that webstie with the dosages disappears. I want to copy it here:
    Vitamin

    Recommended Minimum Daily Dose for Dogs

    Toxic Dose (underlined below)
    (This dose must be given daily for months to create toxicity.)

    Sources

    Signs of Deficiencies (italicized below)

    A
    (min dose) 2272 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis(TOXIC DOSE) 113,600 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis Liver, fish liver oil, vegetables, dairy products Night blindness, retarded growth, poor quality skin and hair
    D (min dose) 227 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis (TOXIC DOSE)2272 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis Sunshine, dairy products, fish liver oil Rickets, poor eruption of permanent teeth
    E (min dose) 23 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis (TOXIC DOSE) 455 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis Cold pressed vegetable oils, meats, nuts, green leafy vegetables Reproductive failure, brown bowel syndrome
    K (min dose) Synthesized in the body (TOXIC DOSE) none Kelp, alfalfa, egg yolk Increased clotting time and hemorrhage
     
  5. dookie

    dookie Member

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    @Nikki

    I am surprised your pets are still alive with all the supplements you are giving them. I don't think a human would feel well doing all those things.

    I would just continue the raw diet; raw meat, milk, eggs and some sugar. Keep it simple. Perhaps add one single supplement after a while, in a minimal dose, and observe carefully what happens.

    Since pets can't talk they can't tell you all the side-effects they are likely experiencing from the massive cocktail of drugs you are giving them.
     
  6. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    Oh I am a goof. The cat one was there too. Table of cat requirement and toxic levels of fat soluble vitamins copied below (the form doesn't copy so I diod my best to format this to make it easy to read).

    Vitamin ADEK
    Recommended Minimum Daily Dose for Adult Cats (maked by "MIN")
    Toxic Dose
    (This dose must be given daily for months to create toxicity.),
    Sources, and
    Signs of Deficiencies (italicized below)



    A
    MIN: 2272 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis
    *Must be in the form of preformed Vitamin A, not beta-carotene (TOXIC DOSE) 340,900 IU/lb of food con-
    sumed on a dry matter basis
    Liver, fish liver oil, vegetables, dairy products Night blindness, retarded growth, poor quality skin and hair
    D MIN:227 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis (TOXIC DOSE) 4545 IU/lb of food con-
    sumed on a dry matter basis
    Sunshine, dairy products, fish liver oil Rickets, poor eruption of permanent teeth
    E MIN: 14 IU/lb of food consumed on a dry matter basis (TOXIC DOSE) none Cold pressed vegetable oils, meats, nuts, green leafy vegetables Reproductive failure, brown bowel syndrome
    K MIN Synthesized in the body (TOXIC DOSE) none Kelp, alfalfa, egg yolk Increased clotting time and hemorrhage
     
  7. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    My pets have been a raw diet for years. Obviously it is not enough to prevent cancer. My cat had days to live. She's survived almost 6 weeks now and is happy as long as she is not given bloodroot products. When you have a family member who is days away from having their airway blocked by a tumor and no surgeon able to operate on them, tell me you would wait for a diet (that they have been on for years) to help them. That makes no sense.
     
  8. narouz

    narouz Member

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  9. dookie

    dookie Member

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    @Nikki

    Besides all the things you have tried, the only other thing I can think of are laxatives. Several alternative docs, including Max Gerson, used laxatives as part of their cancer cure protocol for humans (Gerson used castor oil as a laxative, along with coffee enemas). Since the bowel is a major site for the production of pro-inflammatory mediators, perhaps even in pets some sort of pet-safe laxative could help. Obviously being careful with electrolyte loss and such. I have no idea if this would work or be safe in pets, but it's just an idea.
     
  10. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    Thank you, that is certainly a valid suggestoin. If she could hydrate herself, I would consider a mild laxative. But since hydrating her is my job and I do this every hour or two, I do not want to add to this. She can only tolerate so much handling and drinking. We have a good balance now where I start wtih a syringe of 25cc of water and give her a bit at a time, petting her in between pumps. She is happy and purring with this method, but it takes time.

    I am not schooled on the pro inflammatory mediators in the gut yet. That is something I will have to read up on.

    Thank you for the suggestion if you think of anything more please share.
     
  11. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    Haidut, thanks for the reply. I am sorry I missed this for so long. I use organic ground whole chicken legs as a staple "base" for my pet diet so there is a lot of bone, fat, ligament, tendon, and cartilage. I usually add grass-fed beef so the diet is about 40-50% groung chicken legs, 40-50% ground grass fed beef, and 20% mixed organ meat with liver making up roughly half of the organ meat ("to much" according to many, but I am now a renegade after having 3 pets get cancer in 2 years). To that, I add coral calcium in hopes to include some of the minerals which may be missing from beef and chicken bones. I then add in D complex and Progest E, as well as a B complex with a high content of niacinamide and thiamine. One of the pets is still very easily inflamed. He gets into scraps of food when we are walking and it triggers dermatitis. He should be able to handle small amounts of bread, cat poop, or whatever, but one bite and he is itchy and red for weeks. He is a dalmation so the well known riddle applies, "What's black and white and red allover?" He is clearly not healthy if he can't afford to cheat from his diet once in a while. His thyroid has totally crashed, and he requires large doses of T3/T4. I may try him on additional glycine and see what happens to his skin. Being that his thyroid is intermittently low, he may be at increased risk for cancer. He has recently had a few lumps pop up which I treated with bloodroot paste and they fell away or shrank. They may very well be cancer. Thanks for the idea of Glycine in the water. I may offer them one bowl with and one without to see what they choose =)
     
  12. tca300

    tca300 Member

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    Are you suggesting that if someone has an intake of 5 grams cysteine, methionine, and tryptophan totaled together they would need 50 grams of glycine to balance the negative effects? 1:10 ratio?
     
  13. haidut

    haidut Member

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    Nope, I said ratio of glycine to inflammatory acids needs to be 1:10 in order to be able to balance them. So, if you eat 10g of those bad aminos you'd need 1g glycine.
     
  14. tca300

    tca300 Member

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  15. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    Hi. I wanted to post an update and share what Ray suggested. Rays suggestions are in quotes and my notes are in brackets.

    "I think a blend of raw liver and egg [as the cat's primary food for "a few days". 1oz of liver to one large egg] will provide a good balance of the vitamins [I think he was suggesting I do not need to add any more vitamins to a cancer patient's diet], and a little powdered eggshell could provide the calcium to balance the high phosphorous content of those. (I had a cat with a huge mouth tumor who recovered completely with just the liquified liver and egg.) A small drop of Progest-E (with 2 or 3 mg of progesterone) could be added a few times a day.
    About 5 to 10 mg of a pure pregnenolone per day would reduce stress.
    CoQ10
    5 or 10 mg of aspirin twice a day, finely mixed with the food
    Both progesterone and pregnenolone are anti-inflammatory, but some kinds of tumor respond to an antihistamine such as cyproheptadine or diphenhydramine

    Huge doses of desiccated thyroid have been tested in animals, and similar feeding them liver prevented harm; I’ve known people who corrected their hyperthyroidism in just a day or two by eating liver (6 or 8 ounces per day)."

    I was not able to continue aspirin because it made her stomach upset and choking on vomit was too big of a risk. That is the reason I eventually put her down. I couldn't risk her choking on vomit and it seemed an imminent threat as her throat was affected by the cancer which continued to grow.

    We were able to kill parts of the tumor by injecting it with DMSO and heamotoxylin. I also gave this IV a couple times. I stopped the treatment too soon because I mistook signs of blood loss (from dying tumors) as signs of toxicity to the haemotoxylin. I missed precious days druing the small window of opportunity I had to kill this aggressively growing mass. When I treated her for bleeding (with Yunnan Paiyao) it was obvious her symptoms had been due to blood loss and not toxicity, but by the time I realized it, it was too late. Her tumor had grown very quickly down her throat and was continuing to grow in her jaw. It would have needed to been injected every few days and for several treatments to have erradicated it. Since we did not have the ability to use MRI, we could not determine where the mass was and so it seemed futile. If she were a human, or a younger pet, I would have asked the vet to place a tracheotomy tube and we would have continued with IV treatment, but tracheotomy in a cat is very stressfull and uncomfortable and very often leads to infections. I couldn't do that to her. I saw what I needed to see and I helped her in the best, least harmful ways I could come up with. I did my best with what information I had.

    I will be back to write more on the dog who has been announced to be melanoma free.

    Nikki
     
  16. tara

    tara Member

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    Sorry you've lost her Nikki. She was lucky to have you caring for her so thoughtfully.
     
  17. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    Thank you, Tara.

    I want to be more clear about what parts of RP's suggestions I followed. I never did try the antihistamines because she had kidney issues and was already so sedate from the progest E. I gave dessicated thyroid only once because I had no idea how to dose a cat. There was no information online that I could find. If anyone has found info on it's use in cats, please enlighten me.

    As for the dog, Marley, he is doing well. He was put on chemo (lomustine ) again recently, even though he was doing "OK" (no internal mets). It was not my choice to try chemo, but I don't own him, so I had no say. The melanoma had spread along his gum but it wasn't causing any issues. When the vet cut it out, there was a big gap which exposed his mandible. Of course that was constantly infected, so he has to stay on an antibiotic. He is not getting progesterone which was disappointing, but I am pretty much past disappointment at this point.

    Marley is on a raw diet with very low pufa and is getting Vitamins ADEK (an adult human dose), liver, bloodroot capsules (zenith, 3 caps AM & PM), bupleurum, hoxsey like formula, apo caps (which I feel are useless becase he was on them when his melanoma blew up several months ago), Everpup, and MSM. He got a few injections of gcMAF, but I don't think it was enough to really help. He also had doxycyline for a few weeks. I am not sure if that helped or not. His owners switched him to the antibiotic the vet recommended even though it has no known cancer-fighting potential. He was given a cancer-free diagnosis a few weeks ago, but he still has black on his gums adjacent to where the melanoma "was". It looks like melanoma to me, so I am not so sure the vet ins't just trying to mark this dog as a success case to bolster his business. The vet also has Marley scheduled for one more round of chemo and I can't understand why he would do that if he were "cancer free".

    In any case, Marley is 14 years old. He has already surpassed the average life expectancy for a 95 lb labrador and every day with him is a blessing though it would be nice if he didn't seem like a zombie (I think he has the dreaded "chemo brain"). He had his melanoma diagnosis more than a year ago, so I would say he is beating the odds and doing well. He can walk a mile at a good pace, has a great appetite (too great!), and he looks healthy if you don't look too closely at his eyes or his gums. He is not himself in terms of impulse control, and seems like he now has dementia and maybe a headache. Maybe he will improve when they stop the chemo long enough for him to really recover from it.

    I wish I could do more alternative treatments, but his owners will do what the family vet says and he is against anything that isn't mainstream, it seems. There is nothing I can do if they don't approve it. They don't mind him having the herbs and vitamins, but I don't think he's getting them religiously and I don't have a lot of hope for these to heal the cancer unless they are given in appropriate doses. I do feel these played a role in slowing the progression of the disease as I have seen many cases of melanoma cured with bloodroot and similar herbs.

    I welcome any feedback on this matter.

    Best,
    Nikki
     

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  18. DrJ

    DrJ Member

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    Hey @Nikki , I couldn't follow the whole thread, but still wanted to reply with some things that helped my dog get over his serious liver problems. After reading the diet you're feeding the cat, it's extremely high in phosphate. I would just echo Ray here in that getting the calcium up for your cat (and dog) couldn't hurt. Once I got my dog on more calcium (although not strictly high), it helped a lot. He now gets cottage cheese as a diet staple and has been doing amazing with it. And he loves it. It's the part of his meal he eats first. You definitely want a high calcium to phosphate ratio. I posted much more detail on his diet in another thread, but will have to figure out where. He's really leaned out, his energy level is up even though he's an old dog (10yrs in March), and his fur look by far the best it ever has, to the point he gets complements on it from vet and others.

    Also, I add 1/2 tablespoon of glycine to each meal since it's a general anti-inflammatory and metabolism raiser. He also gets a pinch of taurine with each meal. Interestingly, when I was reading up on taurine, it came up that originally they weren't adding this amino to cat food, and it was causing cats to go blind and die. If you are doing homemade cat food, there's a good chance that taurine is lacking and you need to supplement it.
     
  19. Chief

    Chief New Member

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    Nikki, are you still around? Tonight (May 22-3) I read the thread & your amazing posts...sorry you lost the cat....you guys are so advanced, and never mention the worry! My dear friend was diagnosed with a big mouth tumor too, on Thurs and I was supposed to have him put to sleep Mon. I can't, must try DMSO/anything.
    Please tell me how you cured yours with just liver & egg. Put in a blender?
    Can anyone advise on what version of DMSO to use?
    I won't be able to inject tumor.........
    Need more info on doxycycline - read of danger of oesoph. irritation & ulceration - at every turn,, more worry.....
    so taurine needs to be added to liver & egg? How much liver & egg? How long was he eating just that?
    I wonder if mine would eat it.........it's 3.44 here In Lungdung U.K. and I must crash, this is taking a Huge Toll on me, more q.'s to follow I guess. Hope you can help.........
     
  20. OP
    Nikki

    Nikki Member

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    Hi Chief. I am so sorry about this. It is never easy to lose someone who loves you almost unconditionally.

    If your vet thinks your cat could survive the tumor dying off rapidly, I know more than one way to cause that to happen. For my cat, we couldn't continue the treatments because the tumor went down her throat and wrapped around her trachea. Killing the tumor would have created swelling (potentially choking), and necrotic tissue would have gotten into her lungs. She was too weak at the end to deal with a pneumonia on top of everything else.

    If I had caught the tumor more quickly, I'd have put a g-tube in my cat so she could "eat" comfortably. Then I would inject the tumor with DMSO and Hematoxylon/ Hematoxylin and give this solution intraveneously (or I would inject neoplasene OR I would apply a topical bloodroot salve wiht DMSO while cat is sedated but I feel the hematoxylon is safer). The recipe is in the book "DMSO nature's healer". I applied this to my cat's cheek a few times a day. Soon after, the cancer in her tongue died and half of her tonge sloughed off. After this, my vet injected her tumor near her jaw with the solution (she was under heavy sedation and medicated for pain). The tumor began to die quickly, however, that's when he realized the tumor had grown down her throat & trachea. These areas didn't seem to be killed off by the injection in her mouth.

    If I could do it over, I'd have injected the DMSO &Hemotoxylon intravenously two days in a row, skipped a day, then inject once more, then skip 2 days, then inject again and every 3 days after that until the majority of the mass had died off. That seems like a fair plan to reach all areas of the tumor and stop the growth quickly. If IV injection was not an option. I'd apply topically down the front of her neck and along both cheeks.

    I'd also have a G-tube put in instead of the E tube my vet put in my cat. At first I thought the feeding tube was cruel. I was mad that my vet put it in. When kitty adapted to it, all was fine, but it was a lot of work for me which my vet should have been abe to forsee. Since the tumor interfered with swallowing, the injection of food into her esphagus was uncomfortable as it triggered her swallow reflex and she could easily choke. Putting the food right into her stomach with a G-tube would have been so much better, but I found a way to work with what we had. She even learned to ask for feedings. She would meow at me then go to her feeding area and lay down for me to feed her. She would purr and rub her cheek on nearby objects while being nourished. It was very cute. I cherished those moments and used them as my gauge of her quality of life. I figured if she asked for food and purred while being fed and hydrated, she was doing OK. However, if I'd known she wasn't going to survive, I'd have put her to sleep sooner despite her good appetite and purrs. Her last day was not a good one. Had I known the tumor was more extensive than we thought and killing it would likely have kiled her, I'd have spared her the last 5 days of her life (4 of which were not bad, but not great) and put her down before she got the chance to see a really bad place (her final day- when we euthanized). My vet gave me a large dose of buprenorphine to inject her with in case she entered a crisis, so I was not risking her being extremely uncomfortable. Most pet owners will not have this option but my vet trusted me and left her IV catheter in so I could access her vein in an emergency. I would suggest anyone tinkering with aggressive pet tumors have this sort of relief on hand or that they have a 24 hour vet on call and very nearby for an emergency.

    https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/life-science/cell-biology/hematology-and-histology/hematoxylin.html

    It is never easy to put a pet down, but you know that sometimes it's the only fair thing to do. There is less guilt in giving up than in trying too hard and harming your friend. Trust me on this.

    I had a lot of resources available to me and veterinary experience so I was comfortable providing a hospice situation while trying to kill the cancer. I do not advise everyone do this, I only supply these notes so that a veterinarian could consider taking on a case like this and the owner can be informed of potential outcomes and decide if they think this is right for their pet.

    My next post will contain Rays advice and my experience with his suggestions.

    Hang in there.

    Nikki
     
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