Cat Cancer Treatment Help Please (dog Too)

[Nikki]

i think cyproheptadine is anti-cancer. Progesterone seems be useful in cancer as well.

I think the best results come from combination therapy as describe by Ray Peat


There are several types of drug---carbonic anhydrase inhibitors, to increase carbon dioxide in the tissues, lysergic acid derivatives, to block serotonin and suppress prolactin, anti-opiates, antiexcitotoxic and GABAergic agents, anesthetics, antihistamines, anticholinergics, salicylic acid derivatives---that could probably be useful in a comprehensive therapy for cancer, but their combinations won't be explored as long as treatments are designed only to kill.

Preventing and treating cancer with progesterone.

Thanks jag. I am looking into all of this more!

I especially want to prevent this in my other pets (I have a zoo, pretty much).

=)

 

[Nikki]

Nikki--
I'm sorry about your loved ones'' troubles.

About your cat:
Probably this has been mentioned--if so, sorry to repeat.
But haidut, a while back--a year or more I think,
mentioned in passing
a drug that he said showed remarkable effectiveness against cat (I think) cancer.

Maybe it was cabergoline (may have the spelling wrong)?
Use google (not forum search engine)
and try things like haidut+cats+cabergoline
or maybe it was another drug
so try also haidut+cats or haidut+pets or haidut+dogs...

I am on it. I am seeing only referecne for pituitary but have not found anything by Haidut yet.

Thanks!

 

[narouz]

I am on it. I am seeing only referecne for pituitary but have not found anything by Haidut yet.

Thanks!

Nikki-
Sorry, it wasn't cabergoline--rather butyrate:

Serotonin Production (gut) Depends On Bacteria

I will paste haidut's post here.
The part about butyrate and cats is bolded at the end :>)

by haidut » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:35 am

Zachs wrote:Haidut, don't gut bacteria produce many useful things as well though like vitamins and saturated fatty acids? How would some foods get broken down and absorbed?


Nope, if you are healthy (as per official medical standards) your stomach and small intestine should be sterile. Digestion and absorption happens mostly there and bacteria not only don't play a positive role but if you have it in small intestine or stomach then it's pathogenic (i.e. SIBO, ulcers, etc). Bacteria should be only in the colon, and when food reaches the colon ideally it should be digested as close to 100% as possible and expelled as quickly as possible to prevent the bacteria in the colon form digesting whatever leftovers there are from the food and making endotoxin. So from Peat's point of view, healthy means all three portions of the digestive tract should be sterile as opposed to official medical guidelines of having only the first two clean.
The colon bacteria can do some good for things like turning vitamin K1 into vitamin K2 or producing SCFA like butyrate. However, butyrate is actually pro-serotonergic as the study in my original post shows so even though it inhibits cancer it is actually irritating to the stomach as are the SCFA acetate and proprionate. Peat says the same thing in one of his recent interviews. He said butyrate is probably effective for cancer and many people are selling it for that purpose, but it is pro-inflammatory for the gut. Btw, it is fairly common knowledge that giving butyrate to dogs and cats with cancer effectively allows them to live disease free and die from other cause (aging). Just Google around for butyrate and cancer in pets. Why this is not hailed around the world as a breakthrough in cancer therapy is beyound me...

 

[Nikki]

Nikki-
Sorry, it wasn't cabergoline--rather butyrate:

Serotonin Production (gut) Depends On Bacteria

I will paste haidut's post here.
The part about butyrate and cats is bolded at the end :>)

by haidut » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:35 am

Zachs wrote:Haidut, don't gut bacteria produce many useful things as well though like vitamins and saturated fatty acids? How would some foods get broken down and absorbed?


Nope, if you are healthy (as per official medical standards) your stomach and small intestine should be sterile. Digestion and absorption happens mostly there and bacteria not only don't play a positive role but if you have it in small intestine or stomach then it's pathogenic (i.e. SIBO, ulcers, etc). Bacteria should be only in the colon, and when food reaches the colon ideally it should be digested as close to 100% as possible and expelled as quickly as possible to prevent the bacteria in the colon form digesting whatever leftovers there are from the food and making endotoxin. So from Peat's point of view, healthy means all three portions of the digestive tract should be sterile as opposed to official medical guidelines of having only the first two clean.
The colon bacteria can do some good for things like turning vitamin K1 into vitamin K2 or producing SCFA like butyrate. However, butyrate is actually pro-serotonergic as the study in my original post shows so even though it inhibits cancer it is actually irritating to the stomach as are the SCFA acetate and proprionate. Peat says the same thing in one of his recent interviews. He said butyrate is probably effective for cancer and many people are selling it for that purpose, but it is pro-inflammatory for the gut. Btw, it is fairly common knowledge that giving butyrate to dogs and cats with cancer effectively allows them to live disease free and die from other cause (aging). Just Google around for butyrate and cancer in pets. Why this is not hailed around the world as a breakthrough in cancer therapy is beyound me...

Yay!! thanks!

 

[narouz]

Sure. I may give some to my kitkats :>)

 

[Nikki]

Just found this blurb:"id). Significant differences were also seen in the levels of butyrate and acetate. Butyrates are important as food for cells lining the mammalian colon (colonocytes). Without butyrates for energy, colon cells self-digest and die. Short-chain fatty acids, which include butyrate, are produced by beneficial colonic bacteria (known as probiotics) that feed on, or ferment prebiotics, which are plant products that contain adequate amounts of dietary fiber. These short-chain fatty acids benefit the colonocyte by increasing energy production and cell proliferation. They may also protect against colon cancer." Isn't RP anti=probiotic? Perhaps probiotics are acceptable (and dare I say essential?) for animals?

It appears to me from this and similar statements that the butyrate is necessary for intestinal cell metabolism so of course it would prevent and possibly treat cancers in GI tract. But I'm not finding much to indicate that obtaining a systemic level can treat cancer.

If it is pro inflammatory for the gut, are we talking upper GI, small intestine, or colon? It sounds like it is necessary for the colon so perhaps it simply shouldn't be swallowed. Maybe an injection or enema would work?

 

[narouz]

Just found this blurb:"id). Significant differences were also seen in the levels of butyrate and acetate. Butyrates are important as food for cells lining the mammalian colon (colonocytes). Without butyrates for energy, colon cells self-digest and die. Short-chain fatty acids, which include butyrate, are produced by beneficial colonic bacteria (known as probiotics) that feed on, or ferment prebiotics, which are plant products that contain adequate amounts of dietary fiber. These short-chain fatty acids benefit the colonocyte by increasing energy production and cell proliferation. They may also protect against colon cancer." Isn't RP anti=probiotic? Perhaps probiotics are acceptable (and dare I say essential?) for animals?

It appears to me from this and similar statements that the butyrate is necessary for intestinal cell metabolism so of course it would prevent and possibly treat cancers in GI tract. But I'm not finding much to indicate that obtaining a systemic level can treat cancer.

If it is pro inflammatory for the gut, are we talking upper GI, small intestine, or colon? It sounds like it is necessary for the colon so perhaps it simply shouldn't be swallowed. Maybe an injection or enema would work?

I haven't had a chance to snoop around much,
but I did find this, Nikki...
http://www.orffa.com/wp-content/upl...multifarious-effects-on-intestinal-health.pdf

 

[tara]

She tolerates being in a bag up to her neck. They actually sell cat bags which are great for restraining cats without panicking them. Some find a bag comforting and go limp. Yes some CO2 would leak out but that is not the big problem. The problem is getting it into a bag without a hissing cartridge which will bother any pet I think.

Wow, I'd never heard of such bags. :)
It may not be worth the trouble to do the CO2 cannister thing, but I think if you can slow it down enough you can minimise both the hissing sound and the sudden cold from the gas.

This reminds me of nature show on meerkats. One was bitten by a viper and he swelled up and looked like he was a gonner. He could barely crawl into his tunnel. He emerged weeks later good as new. I think there is something to this phenomenon where animal hide in small spaces when they are very sick.

Could well be.

I was told about these healing caves where people would go for weeks or months in total darkness and low oxygen and they would come out looking 10 years younger and free of disease. Has anyone else heard of this?

I've not heard of this, but I think I've read of a Native American practice of finding a place to lie down safe and covering oneself - head and all - with clothing and breathing into hands for a couple of hours to help abort the beginnings of an infection.

 

[Nikki]

Wow, I'd never heard of such bags. :)
It may not be worth the trouble to do the CO2 cannister thing, but I think if you can slow it down enough you can minimise both the hissing sound and the sudden cold from the gas.


Could well be.


I've not heard of this, but I think I've read of a Native American practice of finding a place to lie down safe and covering oneself - head and all - with clothing and breathing into hands for a couple of hours to help abort the beginnings of an infection.

Tara thank you for adding to the discussion. For now I am not going to try the bag method. I hope sodium bicarbonate and the "CO2caves" are enough for her to get her levels where they should be and pray that we are not sacrificing Oxygen levels. I told her to keep her head near the back of the cave if she feels she needs more CO2 and to put her head near the opening if she needs more Oxygen. She can hopefully figure that out on her own. For 2 days, I didn't realize that all of the caves had been opened up- by that I mean the coverings had fallen off part way, or I had tucked them up at some point and forgot to lower them. By the end of the2 days, she wasn't looking so good. Granted she had a lot going on and was on a lot of supplements which may have triggered GI upset. All I can say is the caves certainly don't seem to hurt because when I lowered the cover on the one, she went right in and stayed there for most of the next 24 hours. She seemed much better for it. I wish I knew how to get videos from my phone to my computer so I could upload her video from this morning. Angel is a happy cat today.

I haven't had a chance to snoop around much,
but I did find this, Nikki...
http://www.orffa.com/wp-content/upl...multifarious-effects-on-intestinal-health.pdf

Narouz, Thanks for the link. I read it, but still find no dosing information. I am not clear if it benefits cancer if absorbed in the upper GI tract but I believe it enters the bloodstream from anywhere in the GI tract for a systemic effect. If we were dealing with colon cancer, I think trying to concentrate it in the colon would make more sense and using an encapsulated version or enema would be best. In Angel's case and "my" dog (I am not his owner) their cancers are in the mouth. I think I just want to achieve a systemic blood level sufficient to start reducing cancer cell numbers. I have to act quickly as she is having difficulty and things are looking more urgent, despite the rest of her body being in such good shape and her upbeat mood today. In a terminal cancer patient, Butyric acid's serotogenic effect may be forgiven because it's ability to kill cancer cells. I am not sure if we could figure out which was winning out the anti-tumor or tumor-promoting effects. We could not know what was happening unless we could see the masses shrink/grow. Even then we wouldn't know if other cancers were taking hold . There are no serotonin test availalbe for cats where I am located, nor are there nagalase test, or butyric acid tests. If I knew I had months to treat, I might forego this option, but in these cases, it want to hit this from several angles.

Feeling concerned. I felt I was making progress before with bloodroot salve used orally. I may just go back to that even though it seemed the least popular thing I had been working with.

What else can I do? How does one tell cancer to shut itself down ASAP? If it were me, I would simply pack the area with bloodroot, but that is going to be very painful and could kill the cells too quickly causing much edema. A gradual die off and time to replace with normal tissue would be nice. I hate to give up, but I am feeling overwhelmed.

Nikki

 

[narouz]

T
In Angel's case and "my" dog (I am not his owner) their cancers are in the mouth.

Nikki-
One thing: I think I remember a good while back,
somebody asked Peat about an oral cancer situation in a human.
Peat said, I think, "if it were me I would take..."
and he went on to name a chemical I had never heard of.
It is probably in the Peat Email Repository--you know about that...here on the forum somewhere?
It's called something like that.

 

[narouz]

Also, Nikki, on the mouth-specific cancers...
Peat has said he has treated himself for pre-cancerous (or outrightly cancerous) growths in his mouth
by taking high doses of vitamin A (I'm pretty sure of this...not 100%, but I think that was what he used.)

I don't know how vitamin A translates from human to dog application.

In terms of anti-cancer substances Peat has recommended for humans...
-well, aspirin: but I've heard this is dangerous/fatal for cats (don't know about dogs)
-certain antibiotics (I would imagine these could be tried, but not sure); haidut (think it was him) a while back posted about antibiotics (in human application) being effective against a broad range of cancers; I think he noted the Peatish ones--minocycline, doxacycline (sp?)
-methylene blue is effective against some kinds of cancers: think it was haidut who posted this; again, in humans, but worth looking into.

Hang in there my friend.

 

[narouz]

Squamous Cell Carcinoma on tongue

 

[narouz]

"...Once I asked Ray Peat about PAP testing and what could be done if the PAP test came back with a bad result. He told me this was a way to threaten women into unnecessary procedures. If you used vitamin A, vitamin E and progesterone and thyroid, both orally and topically - you would be fine within a month. He'd given this advice to many women over the last 50 years and it always worked. He'd thought about it when he had pre-cancerous and cancerous lesions in his mouth and used vitamin A and E and pregnenolone and thyroid to heal them (which they did). He realized that the mucous of the mouth was similar to that of the vagina. I have given this advice to many women during the last couple of years. It always worked."
Freaking Out about Blood Sugar

 

[narouz]

This may've been the thread by haidut on antibiotics and cancer I was thinking of...

Tetracyclines (and A Few Other Antibiotics) As A Cure For Cancer

(an excerpt...)
"The study above references a few other in vivo studies using doxycycline for treating animal models of bone, pancreatic, breast, and brain cancers. The success rate of doxycycline was in the range of eliminating tumors in 70%-80% of the animals. The oral dosage used was 15mg/kg for a mouse, equivalent to a human dose of <100mg. The 100mg dose was effective for all types of cancer except pancreatic, which required higher dosage of 800mg (according to the authors' estimates). Most doxycycline products come in 100mg pills, so it looks like a typical dose of 100mg daily should be effective against 9 out of the 10 cancer types tested, with virtually no side effects give the low dose."

 

[narouz]

I mentioned methylene blue above.
It is not a quinone, but it acts kinda like one,
and I think molecularly it resembles a quinone.
But you might consider trying vitamin K and other quinones, Nikki.
Again, I don't know how quinones act in dogs and cats...

The Anticancer Effect Of Quinones Like Vitamin K May Be Reduction Of NO
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/the-anticancer-effect-of-quinones-like-vitamin-k-may-be-reduction-of-no.5814/

 

[Regina]

This may've been the thread by haidut on antibiotics and cancer I was thinking of...

Tetracyclines (and A Few Other Antibiotics) As A Cure For Cancer

(an excerpt...)
"The study above references a few other in vivo studies using doxycycline for treating animal models of bone, pancreatic, breast, and brain cancers. The success rate of doxycycline was in the range of eliminating tumors in 70%-80% of the animals. The oral dosage used was 15mg/kg for a mouse, equivalent to a human dose of <100mg. The 100mg dose was effective for all types of cancer except pancreatic, which required higher dosage of 800mg (according to the authors' estimates). Most doxycycline products come in 100mg pills, so it looks like a typical dose of 100mg daily should be effective against 9 out of the 10 cancer types tested, with virtually no side effects give the low dose."

For the last 3 years, whenever my dogs have a weird poo, I give them a dropper full of "VibactraPlus" by Amber Technologies. Works every time. Well, it has Pau D'Arco as a main ingredient. So I guess it is like a low-dose "tetracycline". I wasn't aware of this until I stumbled onto you guys here. I wish I knew when my old beagle got cancer (TCC prostate/bladder). I think also he was way overloaded with iron because I fed a 'whole raw cow' sort of diet and I think it was too much iron for an elderly dog.

 

[narouz]

I believe haidut and Roddy talk about methylene blue and cancer here...

 

[Nikki]

Nikki-
One thing: I think I remember a good while back,
somebody asked Peat about an oral cancer situation in a human.
Peat said, I think, "if it were me I would take..."
and he went on to name a chemical I had never heard of.
It is probably in the Peat Email Repository--you know about that...here on the forum somewhere?
It's called something like that.

Narouz, you deserve a hug! I was really about to give up but you keep inspiring me. It's not that the cat is on death's door, but I don't want her to go through all of this for months unless I know there is a good chance of a normal life ahead. She is happy most of the time if I am not messing with her. She walks on her skateboard which I taught her to ride when she was kitten. I thought if I brough out some childhoold memoribilia it would help her feel healthy and spunky. She went to the board within a few hours and started to rub on it. It had been in my closet for years so this is the first she's really seen it except for rare occasions since we moved to this house. Angel has always been a "circus cat". She does a lot of tricks and learned them all in 1 day (plus a couple more I taught her later in life). That is when I realized she was probably smarter than me and I'd better not demean her by making her perform. She has a good spirit and her personality cannot be beat, it's just that she is sensitive and once that feeding tube was implanted and feeding was a process that involved restraint, things changed. She became afraid of me... [the song Earth Angel just started playing =) ] . She is not "dying" she just looks like she's got a headache or nausea or something not quite right and when she does seem in pain or throws up, I feel so sad for her.

I did jsut start DCA yesterday and Butyrate two days ago. I am still not sure how much Butyrate to give. I thought I had pinpointed a dose somewhere online but lost that source. All I know is I gave her 100mg the first day and by the next day I lost my source and didn't really know why I had given her what seems like a high dose for a cat (human would take 400mg per label). Ugh. I need to remember to take my Methylene blue so I can think!

I am not able to find the email Repository so far... will keep looking. I just emailed my vet the study on the tetracycline. I would definitely put the dog on this. I am not sure if it is safe for the cat, will have to see how it is eliminated and if it's safe for mild kindey disease cases. I didn't even think about it. She is on colloidal silver, but maybe there is something about these cyclines that is better equiped to take out cancer cells. It's news to me, so I will have to read up to understand. Thanks again!

 

[Nikki]

My cat's diet, per holistic vet contains unusually high amounts of liver- about 20% of the volume of the raw animal portion is liver where 5% is considered the "normal" amount of liver. That is about the amount a cat would eat if they ate a whole mouse/bird. But when liver is processed, exposed to light and air, ground, frozen, defrosted, frozen again, I am sure that has some effect on even the fat-soluble vitamin content. My thought is this increase in liver content will quadruple the recommended amount of vitamin A, but maybe it is not "high dose" enough. The cat craves liver like her life depends on it. She has been like this for months only eating if I mixed in a lot of liver and other organ meats. I was afraid she would OD on vitamin A and D. Now I am not sure thatt liver contains very much vitamin D and I am sure a Vit D deficiendy will contribute to cancer. I am seeing conflicting info on Vit D content in liver. The liver I have fed in the last year or so is a mystery mix of pork, beef, or chicken so I don't know what liver type she gets each time. I just starte buying beef liver so I can know better what she is receiving.

Am I going to overload her on iron with so much liver? I will try to stick to poultry instead of beef as the muscle meat portion to keep iron down in that portion of the diet. I can also just give vitamin A straight but can anyone suggest a dose? BTW, does anyone know how eggs compare to beef and poultry in iron content? A raw egg diet would be so easy to feed through the tube, I just don't know if it the perfect food I imagine to be. I look at as a "whole chicken" but in liquid form, though I know that is silly. However all of the mineral, fat, protein is there to make a whole animal, and so it must be close to perfect, no? . I wish I understood more. I am really trying, but I have only an AS in animal health which I earned many years ago. I have no advanced degrees and no recent nutrition courses- only what I have learned at Google University, which as you know is full of conflicting information =( No wonder my brain hurts.

BTW I read that accutane/ isotretinoin was develped as a chemo drug initially after they discovered vitamin A killed cancer. It is a patentable form of vitamin A but I think when they altered it, it either didn't perform well on cancer or when the patent ran out, they stopped using it as chemo and made it an acne drug instead. I used to pay something like $8/pill so it was not cheap and there was no generic so I wonder if there was a new patent issued for it as a dermatologic agent and they milked profit out of it that way. In any case, it would be interesting to see how it fared in cancer treatment. So I always knew Vitamin A killed cancer, however I had terrible side effects from isotretinoin and now when I take vitamin A in high doses, I get some of the effects again (stiff neck, dry eyes, dry nasal passages, etc). It could be my imagination. I have a vivid one So I was hesitant to use a lot in my cat, but I have nothing to lose. I hope.

=)

 

[Nikki]

I believe haidut and Roddy talk about methylene blue and cancer here...

Methylene blue is highly toxic to dogs and cats supposedly. I would like to test this out, but not on my pet