Dog with neck mass

[Fuckyeahsugar]

I have a 14 (almost 15) year old Akita, who has been very healthy. He gets bloodwork every 6 months, and his thryoid T4 trends low (this is the only thing the senior panel covers). The attached bundle of pdfs shows his trends and his latest bloodwork taken 6/28/22. MSU full thryoid panel coming.

The dilemma: He formed a very sizable mass near his thyroid over the past (suspected) 3 months. Also noticed growth on his eye that has gotten bigger.

If you do not know, his breed is highly prone to hypothryoidism; I have attached an additional pdf on this.

It should be noted, too, that goiters in dogs are extremely rare, though cysts of the thyroid have occurred and have been documented in a case of 3 boxers (also prone to hypothyroidism). See here https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-019-1948-z
The image in the referenced study looks how my dog's mass feels. It is like a big hard smooth dome that moves over his trachea/my vet things the trachea is moving with it, so she suspects it is attached somewhere in the neck (thyroid or tissue on top). I actually got two opinions, one believing it could very well be some type of sarcoma on the tissue, the other believing it may be on the thyroid. However, when the aspirate was taken, the slides were not highly blood contaminated which is noted typically with thyroid tumors (very bloody).

With all this being said, I do not yet have cytology back or his FULL thyroid panel done at MSU, unfortunately, and my boy is scheduled for an ultrasound on July 12 (I have not OK'd chest xrays). He handles sedation and sedative meds extremely poorly (uh, low metabolism?) and so I do not want to put him under undue stress of this until we have more answers. His vets are on board with this. He had an extremely strong reaction to dex in 2020 (vomiting uncontrollably for 4 days) and so his primary vet proposed a slow drip of propofol for the ultrasound. Thoughts on this?

He underwent emergency bloat surgery in March 2022 this year and I am so grateful that he lived through that, as his stomach had flipped twice. But, with this in mind, they literally just saw and examined him, so would they have not felt a huge 4 inch dome mass on his neck? Maybe they didn't feel it, it's not visible due to his fur. This scares me and makes me think I might be dealing with a cancerous tumor. I have had a dog in the past who underwent a very invasive surgery as well and died from adenocarcinoma a short time later. I do not know if another surgery will be good for him, especially considering they will likely want to run CT scans for it. Now, I have heard of success stories for dogs who go this route and extends their life much longer, so honestly I am on the fence.

----

If you have read this far, all in all, I am asking for some thoughts on treating potential sarcoma or thyroid cancer in dogs so that I can be properly prepared and armed with a load of questions for my vets and a plan of attack to help him. It could very well be the cystadenoma noted in the shared study (MAN I am really hoping for this) which I assume could potentially be addressed with thyroid hormone even. In the event it is not, thoughts, ideas, shared similar experience welcome.

----

Additional information:
* DIET He was originally on the 'Inception' diet of pork, but they had supply issues so he was switched to 'Acana singles' (beef) which has a 1.3% omega-6 fatty acid min and 0.8% omega-3 fatty acid min (I look for the lowest ones). He supplements with a grass fed collagen now (recent). For some reason he does not like coconut oil! So I do not force it. He does, however, love carrots and blueberries, so he gets an afternoon carrot typically when I assume he's digested most of his food. Fed AM & PM, about 12 hours apart. So he gets a carrot or two typically at hour 6 or 7 after breakfast. He is slightly underweight since he refused food for a week after his bloat surgery and had a terrible infection treated with high dose antibiotics. He did not regain all weight back until I recently bumped it up higher.

* SUPPLEMENTS.
-- Off/on use of enteric coated aspirin (has anyone used Aniprin P with dogs? there are very negative studies about ulcers & aspirin for dogs and my vets hated the idea of me putting him on aspirin..).
-- CBD oil (ellevet), 25 drops/day (RECENT) - REALLY helps with his back pain / they suspect wearing of lower spine (NOT hips) / perhaps nerve sensitivity in lower spine. Also really really helps with anxiety when going to the vet. He is a hermit dog, not super trusting or tolerant of people he doesn't know, and it really mellows him out.
-- DEBATING Galliprant but it does NOT have the same anti-cancer effects as asprin and other NSAIDs as referenced in Peat's notably shared asprin anti-cancer study, so far as I am aware. It is an anti-prostaglandin though; but, I could likely get his vet to prescribe an aspirin alternative with similar effects that is approved for dogs (I think it was peroxicam and meloxicam - but he seemed to have a poorer UI reaction to meloxicam after his surgery (not controlled enough to say, that was insanity).. he has no reaction to the enteric coated aspirin maybe because he has not been taking it long enough or it is not getting absorbed).

ENVIRONMENT
-- We DO live near a nuclear powerplant and we are at about ground level, not much CO2 help there. Not sure if could up this for him/if it would be beneficial.
-- He is a big sleeper, very low stress environment. He is usually very goofy and carefree and I keep the house as cold as the a/c will go in the hot months, so I believe he is very comfortable considering he sleeps like a baby. I don't force him on walks esp not in the heat. I let him be lazy. He used to fear fireworks / gun shots but an ear antibiotic made him partially deaf so now he can't really hear them!

 

[JamesGatz]

My dog is older now (around 13) and she's in really good health from a metabolic perspective -shows no signs of slowing down and looks the best shes ever been - the best things I incorporated:

1) RP-style diet - I feed her everything I eat: croissants, potatoes, watermelon, pineapple, milk, cheese, steak, honey - I do think calcium tends to be really important for dogs - in the case of your dog I think a little pineapple would help clean his digestion as well as stimulate his androgens (especially since carrot blocks androgens)

In terms of fixing the hypothyroidism - I give my dog red light a few minutes a day and a little coffee ( a few drops about 5 times a day) and she really likes it -she's never reacted badly to it and she demands it - I think coffee being bad for dogs is over exaggerated BS in terms of the dosage that is toxic for them

2) if he wears a collar and/or a harness indoors I would remove it and only use loosely fitted cotton ones for walks - I do believe collars (something compressing the neck) of a dog raises serotonin - it definitely raises serotonin in people and dogs I worked with never liked it - I also believe harnesses do the same to a smaller extent (doesn't let their rib cage expand fully when breathing) and also most collars and harnesses are estrogenic nylon/polyester so I would keep an eye out for that and replace if necessary

3) 99% of dog beds are estrogenic (polyester, etc.) - even if the outer material is not they still put polyester for filler - I would try to replace it with something you make yourself because healthy dog beds can be found nowhere - for my dog I made her bed from cotton denim and gave her a bunch of my old wool clothes - dogs spend a lot of time on their bed so I think this is a really important factor - if he's ever in really bad shape and looks really hypothyroid - then I would put the following on his bed: either a pillow with down, precious metals (for my dog if she's ever looking hypothyroid I take some of my silver, steel on her bed and/or aluminum foil sheet under her bed, or cashmere clothing if you have: All 3 of these things raise my dog's metabolism pretty fast but I would be careful because you can also make his thyroid too fast (hyperthyroid) if you over-do it) if he starts eating a lot and has way too much energy then this is a good sign of too much

Besides that I think dogs do well with fresh air (even if he doesn't walk much I keep my dog in a room with an open window) - personally I don't think ac's being on all day for a dog is healthy (I do think some of the refrigerant is breathed in when it's on - for my dog I tend to turn it on for her in rotations and try to get her fresh air to aid her lungs out but my dog gets sick if I leave the ac on the cool setting the whole day)

 

[OliviaD]

I have a 14 (almost 15) year old Akita, who has been very healthy. He gets bloodwork every 6 months, and his thryoid T4 trends low (this is the only thing the senior panel covers). The attached bundle of pdfs shows his trends and his latest bloodwork taken 6/28/22. MSU full thryoid panel coming.

The dilemma: He formed a very sizable mass near his thyroid over the past (suspected) 3 months. Also noticed growth on his eye that has gotten bigger.

If you do not know, his breed is highly prone to hypothryoidism; I have attached an additional pdf on this.

It should be noted, too, that goiters in dogs are extremely rare, though cysts of the thyroid have occurred and have been documented in a case of 3 boxers (also prone to hypothyroidism). See here Non-functional thyroid cystadenoma in three boxer dogs - BMC Veterinary Research
The image in the referenced study looks how my dog's mass feels. It is like a big hard smooth dome that moves over his trachea/my vet things the trachea is moving with it, so she suspects it is attached somewhere in the neck (thyroid or tissue on top). I actually got two opinions, one believing it could very well be some type of sarcoma on the tissue, the other believing it may be on the thyroid. However, when the aspirate was taken, the slides were not highly blood contaminated which is noted typically with thyroid tumors (very bloody).

With all this being said, I do not yet have cytology back or his FULL thyroid panel done at MSU, unfortunately, and my boy is scheduled for an ultrasound on July 12 (I have not OK'd chest xrays). He handles sedation and sedative meds extremely poorly (uh, low metabolism?) and so I do not want to put him under undue stress of this until we have more answers. His vets are on board with this. He had an extremely strong reaction to dex in 2020 (vomiting uncontrollably for 4 days) and so his primary vet proposed a slow drip of propofol for the ultrasound. Thoughts on this?

He underwent emergency bloat surgery in March 2022 this year and I am so grateful that he lived through that, as his stomach had flipped twice. But, with this in mind, they literally just saw and examined him, so would they have not felt a huge 4 inch dome mass on his neck? Maybe they didn't feel it, it's not visible due to his fur. This scares me and makes me think I might be dealing with a cancerous tumor. I have had a dog in the past who underwent a very invasive surgery as well and died from adenocarcinoma a short time later. I do not know if another surgery will be good for him, especially considering they will likely want to run CT scans for it. Now, I have heard of success stories for dogs who go this route and extends their life much longer, so honestly I am on the fence.

----

If you have read this far, all in all, I am asking for some thoughts on treating potential sarcoma or thyroid cancer in dogs so that I can be properly prepared and armed with a load of questions for my vets and a plan of attack to help him. It could very well be the cystadenoma noted in the shared study (MAN I am really hoping for this) which I assume could potentially be addressed with thyroid hormone even. In the event it is not, thoughts, ideas, shared similar experience welcome.

----

Additional information:
* DIET He was originally on the 'Inception' diet of pork, but they had supply issues so he was switched to 'Acana singles' (beef) which has a 1.3% omega-6 fatty acid min and 0.8% omega-3 fatty acid min (I look for the lowest ones). He supplements with a grass fed collagen now (recent). For some reason he does not like coconut oil! So I do not force it. He does, however, love carrots and blueberries, so he gets an afternoon carrot typically when I assume he's digested most of his food. Fed AM & PM, about 12 hours apart. So he gets a carrot or two typically at hour 6 or 7 after breakfast. He is slightly underweight since he refused food for a week after his bloat surgery and had a terrible infection treated with high dose antibiotics. He did not regain all weight back until I recently bumped it up higher.

* SUPPLEMENTS.
-- Off/on use of enteric coated aspirin (has anyone used Aniprin P with dogs? there are very negative studies about ulcers & aspirin for dogs and my vets hated the idea of me putting him on aspirin..).
-- CBD oil (ellevet), 25 drops/day (RECENT) - REALLY helps with his back pain / they suspect wearing of lower spine (NOT hips) / perhaps nerve sensitivity in lower spine. Also really really helps with anxiety when going to the vet. He is a hermit dog, not super trusting or tolerant of people he doesn't know, and it really mellows him out.
-- DEBATING Galliprant but it does NOT have the same anti-cancer effects as asprin and other NSAIDs as referenced in Peat's notably shared asprin anti-cancer study, so far as I am aware. It is an anti-prostaglandin though; but, I could likely get his vet to prescribe an aspirin alternative with similar effects that is approved for dogs (I think it was peroxicam and meloxicam - but he seemed to have a poorer UI reaction to meloxicam after his surgery (not controlled enough to say, that was insanity).. he has no reaction to the enteric coated aspirin maybe because he has not been taking it long enough or it is not getting absorbed).

ENVIRONMENT
-- We DO live near a nuclear powerplant and we are at about ground level, not much CO2 help there. Not sure if could up this for him/if it would be beneficial.
-- He is a big sleeper, very low stress environment. He is usually very goofy and carefree and I keep the house as cold as the a/c will go in the hot months, so I believe he is very comfortable considering he sleeps like a baby. I don't force him on walks esp not in the heat. I let him be lazy. He used to fear fireworks / gun shots but an ear antibiotic made him partially deaf so now he can't really hear them!

Happy 4th- I'm seeing fireworks! Wow, a dog person. I wish I was here and had you to discuss my doggy issues with back in January! I was just learning about RP . In retrospect, I would have perhaps had my dog on more carbs/sugar.. although he did get some; and I think things turned out pretty well, although my heart hearts from missing him. He was an Am Bulldog mix, and died Feb 16th.. at 17.5 years old? I believe of old age. I don't have much help for your specifically, but my dog was diagnosed with CA (purportedly, never a biopsy) - hemangiosarcoma.. so a sarcoma after a mass was found on his spleen. It is an aggressive cancer and he was supposed to die in 2 months and he lived for 2 years. I nor the vet, do not know specifically what killed him, or whether his cancer progressed. The original mass never bothered him, I'm not sure if it grew much or not.

I am going to sound rather negative about the vets, and I have strong opinions about many things, so you can take or leave what I say - it may be of no help; but I'm sharing a bit of my story just because.

I am not fond of the 'vets' as a group , and have little respect for them, as a group, b/c they are among the leaders of the groups promoting this Covid scam (I'll stop there). I am sure because of their strong affiliation with the pharmaceutical companies and their love of the vaccines. Speaking of which - do you do those, and has your dog had any in the last years? I did not know about this at the time, but at least in the vet world there are groups questioning the relationship between the jabs and cancer, particularly hemangiosarcoma. Of course, no vet will entertain this idea. Don't let your dog have any vaccines - I'm assuming you wouldn't b/c that would blow all your anti-inflammatory measure out of the ballpark.

I honestly think the whole dog cancer industry is a big industry..interesting.. I just listened to an RP interview where he said a similar thing about the human counterpart; and quoted a study where the longer people avoided treatment for cancer.. the longer they lived. Something to think about.

The normal course of treatment for my dog would have been a splenectomy, which ; according to my research, most dogs didn't live long after. This would be the only way a biopsy could be done. Then some people did chemo - and the dogs lived maybe a month longer (or not). My Scooby was 15, so I chose to take him home and live it up! Didn't want to put him through the surgery at his age, vet wasn't sure he'd survive it. I started making him home cooked meals... completely. He came to work with me, and was the 'therapy dog' for the lady with dementia I cared for 24 hours a day, 5-7 days a week. She fed him cookies, M & M's, peanut butter sandwiches, potato chips and a little bit of whatever she was supposed to be eating :) . He was loved and pampered.

I did turkey tail mushrooms, which in the human literature, seem to have some anti-cancer properties; and are used as chemo adjuvants (or a derivative from them) in some Asian countries.. I can't remember which one. They are very popular in the hemangiosarcoma world. If you use them, you have to get good 'shrooms, and there are only 3 choices, I can tell you my favorite. I honestly don't know if they help, but they have anti inflammatory properties, which you are already doing. There is a company that sells a drug/supplement called Y'Munity, which is an extract from the shrooms.

That was all I did. I did see a veterinary oncologist who did a CT scan 2 months later, she said it might give me some info. It showed enlarged lymph nodes throughout his mediastinum and mesentery, she said were mets, and again, he had prognosis of 2 months. She said to continue the mushrooms AND I was pleased that this vet even said the carbs - cancer connection was nonsense! There, I said a positive thing!

A friend whose dog had the same cancer, tried to get some Ivermectin, as this was used to treat cancer in dogs.. she had a golden retriever cured of cancer with it in the past. Now - the vets will not hear of it,, it has been banned, and if you ask for it.. it will be assumed you are a drug seeker.. of the evil IVM. Her dog died before I was able to help her get some. An interesting substance to explore, however - there is a thread on here about IVM with a lot of good info. RP thinks one way it works is b/c of its anti-inflammatory properties.

So - what is the vet proposing? To remove the mass? I'm not sure I understand. Or - remove it if it is cancerous?. In general, my thought would be if they can't tell you specifically why they are removing something, or that it has an absolute benefit, AND it is not hurting or bothering a dog.. I'd just leave it. As you know, surgery always has risks.

What are they ultrasounding? The mass? Why do they have to sedate him? For an ultrasound, they just have to rub the gadget over the area, the dog doesn't have to be really still like a scan.. so wondering why they'd have to. I don't think any dog was more afraid of being handled by the vet than mine and he had no problem showing it - yet they were able to ultrasound him. With a muzzle :) , but if I held him, he was fine, and they could easily do his abdomen.

I guess I'm not sure about the eye growth.

That is great the CBD is working for you! I tried it - that brand and others and it didn't do anything that I know of for Scooby's arthritis pain or his anxiety (separation) I just got a job I could take him to!!

I can't see any numbers on your graphs, and don't know the scale to know if that upward trend in the creatinine is significant. What is the number? Kidney disease is common in older dogs and Scooby developed it at the end. I had a protocol from an orthomolecular medicine website used by humans to reverse kidney disease, but I think it was too late for me.. or maybe we were beyond just that. I might start it (simple supplementation) if I had a dog with a creatinine getting high.

I used Galliprant with Scooby b/c it was supposed to not have the problem with causing kidney issues and GI issues as much as the other NSAIDS. Prior to that I did use Carpofen for 5 years. He had arthritis in his back, hips, cervical spine and the pain relief and ability to be active that he got was worth it for me. He never had problems and I don't think his kidney failure at the end of his life had anything to do with that, or with the Galliprant. The vet switched to that as he got older. I took him off for a month, and I could see it was much harder for him to move.

His Kidney failure was just diagnosed 3 weeks before his death.. I did not want to believe it at the time, but now I believe his poor old body was just giving out. His labs were always fine before with the Galliprant and Carpofen. He had been losing weight, even though I intuitively upped his carbs. He loved Mac and Cheese, and had that for dinner sometimes. Oh - I also gave him liver, about 5 times a week.

Oh - and I wouldn't worry about the kind of cancer when looking at things that give benefit.. i.e. I'd be open to things that helped other kinds of cancer as the mechanism is really the same. I also know someone whose dog was cured of mast cell cancer (with assist of the vet) by another med used for de-worming in dogs, I can't remember the name, but can get you the name or in contact with her if you have interest. There also was a you tube video of a human who used this to cure his end stage something cancer. Seriously - there were some researchers looking into him.

I don't know if any of this babbling was helpful. But I know what it is like to be where you are.. and I will say a prayer for you and your doggy. and feel free to ask any questions and do keep us posted.. I know I will be curious.

 

[Fuckyeahsugar]

Speaking of which - do you do those, and has your dog had any in the last years?

Yes, I believe his last rabies was a year ago. It is a law that they must receive rabies vaccination every 3 years or utilize a titer. My dogs get vaccinated for rabies only.

my dog was diagnosed with CA (purportedly, never a biopsy) - hemangiosarcoma.. so a sarcoma after a mass was found on his spleen.

Firstly I am very sorry to hear about your dog. The pain of hearing this news is insufferable. When you say 'purportedly' was this assumed just from examining? There was no aspirate or anything to confirm the nature of the cells? Dogs can form internal masses that are not cancerous, so if this was assumed perhaps it was not actually the case? Did you monitor his bloodwork? It seems enlarged lymph nodes would be telling, but I am surprised by diagnosis without any sort of aspirate or biopsy. But completely understand if those options required more stress to figure out - especially being on an internal organ, yeesh. It sounds like regardless you made a great decision for Scooby. It's so hard to know what to do in those situations.

So - what is the vet proposing? To remove the mass? I'm not sure I understand. Or - remove it if it is cancerous?. In general, my thought would be if they can't tell you specifically why they are removing something, or that it has an absolute benefit, AND it is not hurting or bothering a dog.. I'd just leave it. As you know, surgery always has risks.

What are they ultrasounding? The mass? Why do they have to sedate him? For an ultrasound, they just have to rub the gadget over the area, the dog doesn't have to be really still like a scan.. so wondering why they'd have to. I don't think any dog was more afraid of being handled by the vet than mine and he had no problem showing it - yet they were able to ultrasound him. With a muzzle :) , but if I held him, he was fine, and they could easily do his abdomen.

Both vets suggest to wait for cytology results from the aspirate. His primary vet does integrated medicine so she is very open about our options and very much against unnecessary surgery. His other vet insists that the mass on his eyelid be removed, perhaps after they do the ultrasound immediately after rather than messing around and getting a biopsy. She suggests just to take it out, which is not a bad idea if it is quick. The ultrasound would be for the mass to identify where it is - thyroid, muscle, etc.. they cannot tell by palpating. They are definitely going to try without sedation, but he is 86lb of intimidating bulky fluff and he hates being restrained. For proper imaging for a radiologist to review, he has to be still. They are going to take images for additional radiologist review. So all in all, it is for proper diagnosis.

I can't see any numbers on your graphs, and don't know the scale to know if that upward trend in the creatinine is significant. What is the number?

Ah yes, sorry, you have to download the file I think, it is a bundle of images but doesn't show in the preview. See snapshot below of Creatine, it is 1.2. What supplementation are you referring to? I think some time ago his vet suggested he should be on perhaps a slightly lower protein diet but she reiterated she was not concerned about his kidney values. However, I don't see how supplementation would be a negative regardless, so curious of what ya know!

I used Galliprant with Scooby b/c it was supposed to not have the problem with causing kidney issues and GI issues as much as the other NSAIDS.

Yes exactly, I have heard it is the safest one. Appreciate feedback on this! One vet is pushing hard for Galliprant, the other for Meloxicam. His nausea was very bad after his gastric torsion mishap and the meloxicam may or may not have worsened it.

I also know someone whose dog was cured of mast cell cancer (with assist of the vet) by another med used for de-worming in dogs, I can't remember the name, but can get you the name or in contact with her if you have interest. There also was a you tube video of a human who used this to cure his end stage something cancer. Seriously - there were some researchers looking into him.

I would be glad to look into and research anything if you are willing to provide further details!


I really appreciate the response and shared experience and kind words! I am eager to find the best solution for my buddy. I tend to get stuck in my head in thinking loops, so it is refreshing to hear of others' experience, perceptions and knowledge.

 

[OliviaD]

Yes, I believe his last rabies was a year ago. It is a law that they must receive rabies vaccination every 3 years or utilize a titer. My dogs get vaccinated for rabies only.


Firstly I am very sorry to hear about your dog. The pain of hearing this news is insufferable. When you say 'purportedly' was this assumed just from examining? There was no aspirate or anything to confirm the nature of the cells? Dogs can form internal masses that are not cancerous, so if this was assumed perhaps it was not actually the case? Did you monitor his bloodwork? It seems enlarged lymph nodes would be telling, but I am surprised by diagnosis without any sort of aspirate or biopsy. But completely understand if those options required more stress to figure out - especially being on an internal organ, yeesh. It sounds like regardless you made a great decision for Scooby. It's so hard to know what to do in those situations.


Both vets suggest to wait for cytology results from the aspirate. His primary vet does integrated medicine so she is very open about our options and very much against unnecessary surgery. His other vet insists that the mass on his eyelid be removed, perhaps after they do the ultrasound immediately after rather than messing around and getting a biopsy. She suggests just to take it out, which is not a bad idea if it is quick. The ultrasound would be for the mass to identify where it is - thyroid, muscle, etc.. they cannot tell by palpating. They are definitely going to try without sedation, but he is 86lb of intimidating bulky fluff and he hates being restrained. For proper imaging for a radiologist to review, he has to be still. They are going to take images for additional radiologist review. So all in all, it is for proper diagnosis.


Ah yes, sorry, you have to download the file I think, it is a bundle of images but doesn't show in the preview. See snapshot below of Creatine, it is 1.2. What supplementation are you referring to? I think some time ago his vet suggested he should be on perhaps a slightly lower protein diet but she reiterated she was not concerned about his kidney values. However, I don't see how supplementation would be a negative regardless, so curious of what ya know!
View attachment 38629

Yes exactly, I have heard it is the safest one. Appreciate feedback on this! One vet is pushing hard for Galliprant, the other for Meloxicam. His nausea was very bad after his gastric torsion mishap and the meloxicam may or may not have worsened it.

I would be glad to look into and research anything if you are willing to provide further details!


I really appreciate the response and shared experience and kind words! I am eager to find the best solution for my buddy. I tend to get stuck in my head in thinking loops, so it is refreshing to hear of others' experience, perceptions and knowledge.

I'm so glad my reply was at least comforting.. that was my hope that is nothing else, at least having someone who could relate a bit, and empathize would help. I remember feeling so alone & afraid when Scooby's mass was first found; and the Covid debacle was just kicking off. and my regular vet was not even seeing any animals in his clinic. the vets in my area were insane. Scooby was my first dog, and had been very healthy.. suddenly I was told he had this mass that was probably a deadly cancer, and on top of that, it would burst and kill him any second Luckily I always research heavily :) . I made it far worse not having a vet I could trust. I sounds like you have a couple of good vets working with you.

I like how you pulled apart my reply in sections, I'll have to figure out how to do this. I just wanted to get back to you about the kidney supplementation deal for now; so I'll finish the rest later.

Oh * I can totally relate to getting stuck in your head and going round and round. You seem a bit like me in that you try to learn as much as you can and don't just automatically agree the vet (or MD :) ). I think that is always a good idea to do our own research and be as knowledgeable as possible. But I know it can also get overwhelming. In January, I had to take Scooby to a new vet with his sudden having accidents.. urinating on the carpet, like he couldn't make it to the door. He never had an accident before. She was nice, but I believe a new grad, and I don't think she really understood how sick Scooby was, and I could hardly even get ahold of her in the last weeks of his life, and had to figure out everything myself. With this - I still go around in loops,, about whether I did the right thing.. I worry I missed things. It was also a give and take. The vets in my area were still not letting people in.. then it was if you had the jab and a mask. Scooby had separation anxiety and well, he didn't like being touched by the vet, let alone for unpleasant reasons; so I always had to weigh the con of putting him through that stress with the potential benefit of the vet. I had taken him to a vet iast Aug when he was having some vomiting. His labs were all good, she gave him something for the vomiting. I don't like to do pharmaceuticals but they have their place and it worked, and he did well until January. I am getting better, but occasionally obsess over the fact that perhaps if I took him to the vet in the fall, I might have caught his kidney disease earlier - and maybe this protocol I'm going to give you would have helped. I think knowing what I know now, if I had an older dog, with cancer (or possibly), or even an older dog, I would probably use a couple of THESE simple things prophylactically, I think I will for myself also :) . Of course, I think ..maybe he could have lived longer, maybe he died earlier b/c of my ignorance. I am trying not to do this.. because every person and every Vet I have talked with says there was nothing more I could have done. I can tell that you love your dog, and you will learn everything you can, and you will do the best for your dog.. and I will tell you now.. that your dog is going to get the best care and treatment possible.. I know that.. and do not ever ever let yourself think that you did not do enough. I know you will.. so I'm reprimanding you now. I asked Scooby's oncologist how long a patient of hers with a splenic mass , without surgical removal lived - the longest. 5 months she told me. He lived 21 months.. almost 2 years and he was 15.5 to start! I think we did pretty well. It doesn't make it any easier, but every day I had with him was a gift and I had so much more than I thought.

So - the kidneys. I had been reading a lot about kidney disease/failure, because at the same time, my mom had stage 4 kidney failure. I (and Scooby) moved in to care for her - she had several heart attacks and the kidney failure after her Pfizer shot. I did not want her to go to a nursing home. She died a month and 1/2 after Scooby; in April. They were very similar. with their health problems.

Your doggy's creatinine is good, and his other labs are. I don't want to get you even thinking about another problem, but I think you will have this article very interesting and the information will be useful for you to have. The issue with kidney disease in the dogs, who can't tell us how they feel, is that the kidney disease does not show up in the lab values - the creatinine is the primary one they use, along with GFR (which they don't usually measure in dogs) - until one is in stage 3 kidney disease. (there are 5 in humans 5 being basically failure, and 4 used in the vet world (per my research) - I think they just don't add the 'failure' of stage 5. So, in stage 1 or 2 kidney disease creatinine and BUN are usually still normal. His albumin is low, but so close you could call it normal. It is seen in kidney disease, but can be caused by other things also. One way to know if the kidneys are involved would be to check the urine albumin, with kidney issue, this would be high and in combo with lo serum indicate it's being lost via kidneys. I don't know if they do that test in dogs.

This protocol is meant for (and did reverse) early stage kidney failure.. when excess phosphorous is a key problem. (Your dog's level is good, so that is positive). All of Scooby's labs were off when his kidney disease was diagnosed.. he was already at stage 4. I did use this protocol (except for the thyroid hormone - b/c I didn't have any access then); but I think it was too late. I did use the niacin (as niacinamide) for my mom .. and who knows, her phosphorous levels stayed pretty good! I couldn't do the whole protocol b/c my dad would never be okay with any 'alternative' treatment. So, calcium carbonate acts as a phosphorous binder in the intestine. You will read in the vet reference I send you about the vets giving you 'prescription binders' because of course , they have them. Full of the typical RX crap. I think it won't shock you, as you are on this forum, but I am livid when I read things like this protocol.. because it is something that ANY human or dog could do to potentially reverse, or at least help decrease progression of kidney disease - with niacin/niacinamide; calcium carbonate (TUMS), and baking soda. CHEAP and easy. I would not use a prescription phosphorous binder when CaCarbonate and Niacin work so well, and are so much less toxic. As you will learn - niacin binds the phosphorous in the tissues, which can be monitored by another level - prob not available in dogs. Just read this and you will understand everything I'm saying. If I was in your situation I would use the Calcium Carbonate and Niacinamide at the low end. These are very benign substances, I don't think you can hurt anything, and if you are having bloodwork done, you can monitor the lab values, including the calcium. They do give an upper limit for elemental calcium, and you could also take your dog's diet into account. I was always told medical protocols are made assuming a 150 lb man. (isn't it crazy how dogs are always dosed by weight.. well usually.. but a 90 lb and 250 lb human usually get the same dose of meds). So, I calibrated the doses to my Scooby's weight. OF COURSE. I am not even suggesting you do this, and don't want to cause you worry. But, my vet told me that some HUGE percent of older dogs she sees have kidney disease eventually (I have theories :) ) - so seems to me this info would be useful for anyone with a senior dog, because YOU COULD TAKE PREVENTIVE STEPS. I used niacinamide vs niacin b/c when I take niacin I get that flushing, and it is really uncomfortable. I don't know if dogs do, but didn't want to risk Scooby feeling bad! the niacinamide is supposed to work just as good.

Reversing Chronic Kidney Disease with Niacin and Sodium Bicarbonate

orthomolecular.org

Here's a thing on Kidney disease in dogs, from the vets.. (consider that, lol). I would say in the months before his diagnosis, he was drinking more water. So, I kick myself and say maybe I should have taken him in then..but it was so hard to know. I was happy that he was staying hydrated, and it wasn't bizarrely abnormal. He was vomiting, and losing weight (also signs, but signs of many things too). The vet thought those might be slowly progressing cancer or "old" :)

Kidney Disease in Dogs: Causes, Symptoms, Treatments and More

Learn about kidney disease in dogs including the most common causes, symptoms and treatments for this condition.

www.veterinarians.org

LOL, they say you mere mortal can NEVER put your dog with kidney disease on a home made diet.. well I saw the ingredients in stuff the vet wanted to sell me and I was not going to use that!

Kidney Failure Risk Factor: Serum Albumin

www.kidney.org

Here's a paper on IVM and canine mammary CA (it's an in vivo model, with a mouse study. but has a valid mechanism. Right now (always subject to change) I'm considering IVM kind of an all purpose general anti-inflammatory wonder drug).. Of course if is now villified.

Ivermectin inhibits canine mammary tumor growth by regulating cell cycle progression and WNT signaling

Mammary gland tumor is the most common spontaneous tumor in intact female dogs, and its poor prognosis remains a clinical challenge. Ivermectin, a well-known anti-parasitic agent, has been implicated as a potential anticancer agent in various types of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'll get some stuff on the de-wormer later, Fenbendazole.. I believe it is. There is a thread here with some info on it.

That's a lot of reading for now!!!

One more question.. on your lab results.. there are results on the left, and then a column of numbers on the right. Are those 2 different results, at 2 different dates?

I'll explain the "purportedly" cancer next time. .. :)

 

[OliviaD]

Yes, I believe his last rabies was a year ago. It is a law that they must receive rabies vaccination every 3 years or utilize a titer. My dogs get vaccinated for rabies only.


Firstly I am very sorry to hear about your dog. The pain of hearing this news is insufferable. When you say 'purportedly' was this assumed just from examining? There was no aspirate or anything to confirm the nature of the cells? Dogs can form internal masses that are not cancerous, so if this was assumed perhaps it was not actually the case? Did you monitor his bloodwork? It seems enlarged lymph nodes would be telling, but I am surprised by diagnosis without any sort of aspirate or biopsy. But completely understand if those options required more stress to figure out - especially being on an internal organ, yeesh. It sounds like regardless you made a great decision for Scooby. It's so hard to know what to do in those situations.


Both vets suggest to wait for cytology results from the aspirate. His primary vet does integrated medicine so she is very open about our options and very much against unnecessary surgery. His other vet insists that the mass on his eyelid be removed, perhaps after they do the ultrasound immediately after rather than messing around and getting a biopsy. She suggests just to take it out, which is not a bad idea if it is quick. The ultrasound would be for the mass to identify where it is - thyroid, muscle, etc.. they cannot tell by palpating. They are definitely going to try without sedation, but he is 86lb of intimidating bulky fluff and he hates being restrained. For proper imaging for a radiologist to review, he has to be still. They are going to take images for additional radiologist review. So all in all, it is for proper diagnosis.


Ah yes, sorry, you have to download the file I think, it is a bundle of images but doesn't show in the preview. See snapshot below of Creatine, it is 1.2. What supplementation are you referring to? I think some time ago his vet suggested he should be on perhaps a slightly lower protein diet but she reiterated she was not concerned about his kidney values. However, I don't see how supplementation would be a negative regardless, so curious of what ya know!
View attachment 38629

Yes exactly, I have heard it is the safest one. Appreciate feedback on this! One vet is pushing hard for Galliprant, the other for Meloxicam. His nausea was very bad after his gastric torsion mishap and the meloxicam may or may not have worsened it.

I would be glad to look into and research anything if you are willing to provide further details!


I really appreciate the response and shared experience and kind words! I am eager to find the best solution for my buddy. I tend to get stuck in my head in thinking loops, so it is refreshing to hear of others' experience, perceptions and knowledge.

 

[VitoScaletta]

carrot blocks androgens

Source?

 

[Fuckyeahsugar]

Sorry for my delayed response!!

I'm so glad my reply was at least comforting.. that was my hope that is nothing else, at least having someone who could relate a bit, and empathize would help. I remember feeling so alone & afraid when Scooby's mass was first found; and the Covid debacle was just kicking off. and my regular vet was not even seeing any animals in his clinic. the vets in my area were insane. Scooby was my first dog, and had been very healthy.. suddenly I was told he had this mass that was probably a deadly cancer, and on top of that, it would burst and kill him any second Luckily I always research heavily :) . I made it far worse not having a vet I could trust. I sounds like you have a couple of good vets working with you.

Exactly, how could a dog so healthy suddenly be this big ball of potential cancer? This is what I've been thinking so much about. And the answer is just 'well, he is old'. Dog cancer rates are ridiculous, how has this just been accepted? I pushed my vet a little bit when I took my dog in for an ultrasound, and questioned how these things sprung up after a traumatic surgery, and she said 'or he is just old'. I mean, I guess fair point, but, really? I think I offended them when I deliberately turned down x-rays, which is really disappointing, because I do like my vets as people. What is funny is the ultrasound technician said 'It could be a cyst, tumor or goiter', and my vet said, 'I was shocked to hear that, because I've never seen a goiter'. And this is the first question I had when his house call vet told me there was a mass there.
Unfortunately was not able to get the ultrasound due to catheter problems and then over-agitation, so he will be returning next week for a second try. I've been thinking so much about your response in regards to declining surgery, and it really has weighted my decision, and honestly find that very brave of you. Knowing the risks and that this previous surgery potentially expedited inflammation within his body or an unstable state it seems, in my mind perhaps it is the last thing I should be considering.

so I always had to weigh the con of putting him through that stress with the potential benefit of the vet.

Isn't that the worst.... This is where my house call vet came in to save the day after his bloat surgery. Took his staples out with him standing up. A lifesaver, he was not stressed at all.

I think knowing what I know now, if I had an older dog, with cancer (or possibly), or even an older dog, I would probably use a couple of THESE simple things prophylactically, I think I will for myself also :) . Of course, I think ..maybe he could have lived longer, maybe he died earlier b/c of my ignorance. I am trying not to do this.. because every person and every Vet I have talked with says there was nothing more I could have done. I can tell that you love your dog, and you will learn everything you can, and you will do the best for your dog.. and I will tell you now.. that your dog is going to get the best care and treatment possible.. I know that.. and do not ever ever let yourself think that you did not do enough. I know you will.. so I'm reprimanding you now. I asked Scooby's oncologist how long a patient of hers with a splenic mass , without surgical removal lived - the longest. 5 months she told me. He lived 21 months.. almost 2 years and he was 15.5 to start! I think we did pretty well. It doesn't make it any easier, but every day I had with him was a gift and I had so much more than I thought.

I so appreciate your words, that's so very kind. It is really nice to know someone can relate to this situation and cares as much. I can't tell you how helpful it is for you to share your experience, really. Scooby was clearly very well loved! I would love if you shared some pictures of him.

I'm also very sorry to hear about your mother, that's truly traumatizing. You have been through a lot! I can tell how much you care and also so amazed that you are willing to share this info with a stranger. So thankful over here.

The issue with kidney disease in the dogs, who can't tell us how they feel, is that the kidney disease does not show up in the lab values - the creatinine is the primary one they use, along with GFR (which they don't usually measure in dogs) - until one is in stage 3 kidney disease. (there are 5 in humans 5 being basically failure, and 4 used in the vet world (per my research) - I think they just don't add the 'failure' of stage 5. So, in stage 1 or 2 kidney disease creatinine and BUN are usually still normal. His albumin is low, but so close you could call it normal. It is seen in kidney disease, but can be caused by other things also. One way to know if the kidneys are involved would be to check the urine albumin, with kidney issue, this would be high and in combo with lo serum indicate it's being lost via kidneys. I don't know if they do that test in dogs.

Appreciate this information, this also has stuck in my mind and I'm going to stay on top of it. One time he had some elevated liver enzymes and I started giving him Sam-E as per vet recommendation and they came back down, that was probably 2 years ago. Prevention is the way to go. This knowledge is SO valuable to have, thank you so much.

If I was in your situation I would use the Calcium Carbonate and Niacinamide at the low end.

Planning on it!
I think I read TUMS have xylitol somewhere - fast read, didn't look at a label. I'll figure out brands unless you have some other suggestions. Maybe some bulk pure powders. Either could theoretically also be increased in the diet?

OF COURSE. I am not even suggesting you do this, and don't want to cause you worry. But, my vet told me that some HUGE percent of older dogs she sees have kidney disease eventually (I have theories :) ) - so seems to me this info would be useful for anyone with a senior dog, because YOU COULD TAKE PREVENTIVE STEPS. I used niacinamide vs niacin b/c when I take niacin I get that flushing, and it is really uncomfortable. I don't know if dogs do, but didn't want to risk Scooby feeling bad! the niacinamide is supposed to work just as good.

I experience the same thing with niacin and was thinking to take the same approach! I like the call out of weight, too. I think metabolic differences are what dictate it in dogs? Like aspirin doses as well as thyroid even. I'm not sure, I'd have to read about it more. But I remember one time my dad's dog got into his thyroid meds and he called poison control and they said toxicity for dogs was incredibly higher than it was for people. Have not explored.

The vet thought those might be slowly progressing cancer or "old" :)

Old - heard that!!

One more question.. on your lab results.. there are results on the left, and then a column of numbers on the right. Are those 2 different results, at 2 different dates?

I think you are referring to the previous dates, yes. So 'Test' 'Result' (from that day) 'Reference Range' and then two values are from previous dates with the date referenced at top.

I'll read over the studies you provided and information! My dog definitely SEEMs to be drinking more water, but it's hard to tell completely if I'm not just being paranoid. Regardless, no harm in prevention :)

----
I'll check back in if you have more to share, perhaps thoughts on studies/kidney info, and I'll also be updating with opinions from the radiologist about the mass. He also has an eyelid mass that is bothering him, trying to figure out how to approach that, too, without surgery. He got an antibiotic ointment for it but the vet was not confident it would do much (I think she thinks it is also cancerous).

 

[Fuckyeahsugar]

This is interesting in regards to albumin:

When it's too low, you may get swelling from the build up of fluid in your feet, ankles, hands, around your eyes, lower back, or other parts of your body.

My dog does have some minor hock swelling.

1. Calcium in excess can cause further damage to the kidneys

Noticed this tidbit. His calcium is within range, so I am thinking like you said start with a small amount and see if any difference in his drinking habits. There is apparently 380mg of calcium in 1g of eggshell, which I can grind up for him (or he may even just eat it as is). Apparently dosing for large dogs is somewhere around 2kmg so that should be a relatively good place to start, if not lower and ramp up. I'll also see in history what his food has been (changed brands a bit due to sourcing problems; found this 'open farm' which is low in PUFA compared to other brands despite ingredients containing flaxseed, sunflower oil and salmon oil ). I will keep looking for a more affordable brand than vital essentials ($20/lb yeesh!); Might start trying to transition him to a more homemade diet or buy from a local farm.

Studies in animals are limited for this supplement and therefore information regarding risk factors is also limited. In humans, patients with liver disease or stomach/intestinal ulcers should not use this supplement; therefore, use niacinamide cautiously in pets with these conditions. Niacinamide should be used cautiously in pets with seizures or diabetes.

I found this interesting. Ulcers.. what? No supporting study. My dog does seem to have a very sensitive GI. He can't seem to handle the pure aspirin powder, but he is doing OK on meloxicam. I am having a hard time finding any studies focusing on niacinamide + dogs outside of autoimmune skin conditions. Same with pregnenolone and progesterone. But the niacinamide dose seems to be 500mg for dogs with skin conditions. Probably will also do a very low dose to see, again, if his drinking habits become modified. Seems like a safe approach.