Anyone Taking Progesterone During Their Cycle?

[PakPik]

The current fibroid swelling is an odd thing. For a few weeks I've been taking an herbal acetylcholinesterase (AChE, sorry if you already knew that) inhibitor

Well, progesterone and acetylcholine act in opposite directions. In fact, progesterone induces acetylcholinesterase in order to degrade ACh ASAP, and Peat considers this one of the most important nerve protecting, intelligence enhancing actions of progesterone. Acetylcholine destroys the brain/nervous system if it accumulates beyond what's needed. Acetylcholine is the main neurotransmitter of the inflammatory branch of the autonomic nervous system: the parasympathetic nervous system. If you'd like more info Autonomic systems

Maybe the positive effects from the herb are due to effects on something else? Anyways, I thought you might be interested in this info :)

 

[whodathunkit]

Well, progesterone and acetylcholine act in opposite directions. In fact, progesterone induces acetylcholinesterase in order to degrade ACh ASAP, and Peat considers this one of the most important nerve protecting, intelligence enhancing actions of progesterone. Acetylcholine destroys the brain/nervous system if it accumulates beyond what's needed. Acetylcholine is the main neurotransmitter of the inflammatory branch of the autonomic nervous system: the parasympathetic nervous system. If you'd like more info Autonomic systems

Maybe the positive effects from the herb are due to effects on something else? Anyways, I thought you might be interested in this info :)

@PakPik, really, REALLY interesting! Thank you so much! :)

I don't know about the positive effects of huperzine...it seems like I had ACh deficiency symptoms, then symptoms of surplus. Then back and forth again. I guess it's just a matter of finding balance. Titrating things properly.

FWIW, the primary reason I got into experimenting more with my ACh levels is due to digestive problems. I've been having "gall bladder attacks" since I lost a bunch of weight. BUT...I figured out they don't necessarily seem to be triggered by fat, although fat can trigger it. But so can other foods that turn out to affect ACh. When it happens there seems to be an element of gastroparesis involved, almost as if my bile ducts are spasming but everything south of the pyloric junction (including the junction itself) seems to be almost paralyzed. Except once in a while I'll get the hypermobility of the bile duct, paralysis just past the stomach, and get then IBS-D symptoms south of that. Good times.

Point being, it didn't seem to be entirely about the gall bladder. Plus, one ultrasound I had showed stones with no evidence of cholestasis, and the other US I had (when I was in the emergency room actually having an attack) showed no stones at all. The second one was after I'd been doing some things to possibly eliminate stones.

Anyway, after a little reading I figured out SOMETHING isn't right in the signalling in my digestive tract. Things aren't in proper synch. The ACh and AChE inhibitioin seems to be helping with that.

My anecdotal two cents: Yes, my estrogen symptoms got worse before they got better. I pushed through taking insane amounts of Progest-E for my specific health issues and major estrogen dominance. I don't/didn't have fibroids that I know of, but I had a breast lump which has since gone away.

The large doses never made me miss a period , but I did trigger a couple of shorter cycles due to irregular dosing most likely.

Peatowski, this is really good to know. Thank you!

I'm wondering now if most of the issues women experience when addressing estrogen dominance with progesterone are really just liver issues. They can't clear the "flushed out" estrogen fast enough because their livers are screwed. Mine certainly was, although it's a lot better now. May sound naive me coming onto this forum and saying that about the liver as if it's new info, but we all arrive at the right conclusion by different routes, no?

Do you take thyroid meds? My decades of heavy bleeding finally stopped when I got on a decent amount of thyroid medication (with T3).

Nope. Since I got myself onto iodine about 7 years ago my TSH has always been less than 1.0, *except* my last TSH test late last year, after I'd lost a great deal of weight. I did a lot of intermittent fasting. Go figure. LOL

Reverse T3 has been less than ideal but I've been dealing with so many other things I just didn't worry about trying to figure that out as long as all other thyroid labs were reasonably normal (they were). So RT3 was a "later" priority.

Incidentally to all: After that big dose of progesterone I feel much better. I immediately got warmer, and then shortly thereafter the cramping, bleeding, bloating diminished greatly. Now a couple hours later I'm feeling a tad "sedated" but not overly so. Just feel better all around. I have a tiny headache that is coming and going but no big. Barely noticeable. This is the ONLY time in my life that using progesterone has produced a noticeable immediate effect, or even any kind of a positive effect.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Fascinating stuff @PakPik...I definitely need to study more of this brain stuff.

When I first started "Peating" it felt like a part of my brain went missing. I was busy depleting PUFA, shutting down stress hormones, taking BOATLOADS of progesterone and trying to learn as much as I could.

Some things have gotten better, but I began to crave eggs and more fat in the last six months or so....not sure why. Sometimes butter is soothing to my brain.

But also, I find the anticholinesterase activity of a certain herbal product to be very helpful with brain inflammation and memory.

I wish I had a better understanding of how this stuff works....running to read the Autonomic systems article, again.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

I'm wondering now if most of the issues women experience when addressing estrogen dominance with progesterone are really just liver issues. They can't clear the "flushed out" estrogen fast enough because their livers are screwed. Mine certainly was, although it's a lot better now. May sound naive me coming onto this forum and saying that about the liver as if it's new info, but we all arrive at the right conclusion by different routes, no?

I agree, it's this exactly. I can tell when my liver isn't clearing estrogen properly.

I'm only 5'2" tall and for many years I weighed 200 pounds....I'm now at 135.....wondering about the fat loss issue??? Also, had years of digestive issues.

Hmmmmm, lots to think about....

 

[whodathunkit]

When I first started "Peating" it felt like a part of my brain went missing. I was busy depleting PUFA, shutting down stress hormones, taking BOATLOADS of progesterone and trying to learn as much as I could.

Just reading that sentence and thinking about doing all that evaporated half my available cognition. :p

 

[whodathunkit]

This is interesting. Reading a RP interview on Learned Helplessness and just came across this nugget:

For about 50 years there was a puzzle about how acetylcholine for the cholinergic nerves could inhibit the heart and the sphincters, while causing contractions of the various ducts (intestines, and so on). It's been proposed that something was being released in the cells that combined with acetylcholine to determine whether it was excitatory or inhibitory. But the main thing that happens; it’s that acetylcholine causes cells to produce nitric oxide, the chemical that became famous with Viagra and Rogaine, which causes vasodilatation.

So I guess it could be that things are out of synch in different parts of the GI tract at the same time, due to ACh.

I still think I was mildly deficient so will dial back but not stop entirely some of the supps I was taking, and bag the AChE inhibitor for now. I seem to have made some progress in the last few days digestive-wise, so something is moving in the right direction. No pun intended.

 

[whodathunkit]

@thebigpeatowski: have you tried the Mitolipin product from haidut? I ordered some. Phospholipids + acetyl-l-carnitine have been a cornerstone of raising ACh for me. I feel better when doing them so I think I was deficient. I think the key with it is just finding the balance. I was using NT Factor phospholipids which is soy but it's been processed differently so supposedly is not as bad as some. I'm looking forward to trying the Mitolipin since it's saturated.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

I have stayed away from phospholipids (even though I do think they might help my situation) mostly because I thought they were PUFA...Mitolipin sounds good, but I don't know anything about it....more learnings in order!!!

 

[whodathunkit]

t....more learnings in order!!!

It never, ever seems to stop.

Still pleased with my reaction to progesterone so far. I think I feel better overall. I slept really good last night, although I did have to get up a couple of times to perform hygiene. The possibility of accidents is never far away from my conscious mind at this time of the month so I didn't expect to sleep through the night anyway. A couple days will tell more about sleep quality.

I'm just curious...how do you guys manage the Progest-E without it messing up your clothes? Seems there's nowhere I can put it that it won't get on something, and it's very thick and goopy. I ordered some Progestene from haidut that hopefully will soak in better because of the DMSO, but just wondering about the Progest-E.

 

[PakPik]

@whodathunkit Most women ingest Progest-E, or just let it sit on gums and oral tissues (that's its primary mode of ingestion). It doesn't absorb very well transdermally, although it can be used that way mixing with a little warm olive oil per Peat's recommendation.

@thebigpeatowski Acetylcholine forces neves to activity, in fact Peat says that's the excitotoxic effect of ACh (that may make the person feel in fact with better memory, etc..) . If for any reason the nerve is in bad shape and can't take that hard stimulus, it will be furthered injured till it dies. For recovery from brain injuries and neurodegenerative problems Peat recommends anticholinergic, antiexitotoxic agents. Finally, excess cholinergic stimulus can cause fibrosis in the digestive system organs. Food for thought!

"Traumatic brain injury, even with improvement in the short term, often starts a long-term degenerative process, greatly increasing the likelihood of dementia at a later age. A cholinergic excitotoxic process is known to be involved in the traumatic degeneration of nerves (Lyeth and Hayes, 1992), and the use of anticholinergic drugs has been recommended for many years to treat traumatic brain injuries"

"The cholinergic nerves are a major factor in shifting those hormones in the direction of dementia"

"Estrogen, with similar generality, decreases the activity of cholinesterase. DHEA, like progesterone, increases the activity of cholinesterase, and is brain protective (Aly, et al., 2011). Brain trauma consistently leads to decreased activity of this enzyme (Östberg, et al., 2011; Donat, et al., 2007), causing the acetylcholine produced in the brain to accumulate, with many interesting consequences."

"Although herbal inhibitors were well known, profitable new drugs, starting with Tacrine, were put into use. It was soon evident that Tacrine was causing serious liver damage, but wasn't slowing the rate of mental deterioration.
As the failure of the cholinergic drug Tacrine was becoming commonly known, another drug, amantadine (later, the similar memantine) was proposed for combined treatment. In the 1950s, the anticholinergic drug atropine was proposed a few times for treating dementia, and amantadine, which was also considered anticholinergic, was proposed for some mental conditions, including Creutzfeldt-Jacob Disease (Sanders and Dunn, 1973). It must have seemed odd to propose that an anticholinergic drug be used to treat a condition that was being so profitably treated with a pro-cholinergic drug, but memantine came to be classified as an anti-excitatory "NMDA blocker," to protect the remaining cholinergic nerves, so that both drugs could logically be prescribed simultaneously" New Page Title HereNew Page Title Here

 

[whodathunkit]

@whodathunkit Most women ingest Progest-E, or just let it sit on gums and oral tissues (that's its primary mode of ingestion). It doesn't absorb very well transdermally, although it can be used that way mixing with a little warm olive oil per Peat's recommendation.

Thanks, PakPik! I have now read Peat's article on progesterone thanks to your nudge. Or rather, re-read it. Again. I've been bouncing around Peat for years and have loved him in theory, but in life this the first time his his recs of high sugar and progesterone, etc., have worked for me, probably because my metabolism, thyroid, and liver health are so much better this time around.

I'm remembering now I did try using Progest-E transvaginally (with gelatin capsules), but that didn't work out very well. The Progest-E seemed to induce some itching or whatever in my nethers. So I stopped. Just FYI if anyone ever decides to try *that* delivery route.

 

[ilovethesea]

From the Peatarian email exchanges with Ray:


Sometimes progesterone can cause an underactive enlarged thyroid gland to begin secreting, temporarily producing mild hypothyroidism while the gland returns to a normal size. Supplemental progesterone can reduce excessive cortisol production.

Since progesterone helps the thyroid to secrete, and helps the liver to regulate glucose and convert T4 to T3, women who are low in progesterone usually have hypothyroid symptoms (because of insufficient T3), including high cortisol, which promotes the synthesis of estrogen (in several ways, but never from progesterone). Cortisol is made from progesterone, but increasing the supply of progesterone reliably lowers cortisol synthesis, acting on the brain, pituitary, and adrenal glands. Progesterone, by many mechanisms, including its antagonism to cortisol, lowers the amount of estrogen in cells (causing the estrogen-binding proteins to be degraded, inhibiting the enzymes that release estrogen from the sulfates and glucuronides, and activating the enzymes that detoxify estrogen). So I think the symptoms of increased estrogen and cortisol are the result of either extraneous ingredients in the creams, or from using it at the wrong time, for example, too early, triggering premature ovulation. Supplementing a small amount of T3, Cytomel or Cynomel, usually stops symptoms such as breast pain, irritability, and restless energy, in less than an hour.

 

[ilovethesea]

From a Mary Shoman interview:

Mary Shomon: You feel that progesterone can have anti-stress effects, without harming the adrenal glands. Is progesterone therapy something you feel is useful to many or most hypothyroid patients? How can a patient know if she needs progesterone? Do you recommend blood tests? And if so, at what point in a woman's cycle?

Dr. Ray Peat: Estrogen blocks the release of hormone from the thyroid gland, and progesterone facilitates the release. Estrogen excess or progesterone deficiency tends to cause enlargement of the thyroid gland, in association with a hypothyroid state. Estrogen can activate the adrenals to produce cortisol, leading to various harmful effects, including brain aging and bone loss. Progesterone stimulates the adrenals and the ovaries to produce more progesterone, but since progesterone protects against the catabolic effects of cortisol, its effects are the opposite of estrogen's. Progesterone has antiinflammatory and protective effects, similar to cortisol, but it doesn't have the harmful effects. In hypothyroidism, there is a tendency to have too much estrogen and cortisol, and too little progesterone.

The blood tests can be useful to demonstrate to physicians what the problem is, but I don't think they are necessary. There is evidence that having 50 or 100 times as much progesterone as estrogen is desirable, but I don't advocate "progesterone replacement therapy" in the way it's often understood. Progesterone can instantly activate the thyroid and the ovaries, so it shouldn't be necessary to keep using it month after month. If progesterone is used consistently, it can postpone menopause for many years.

Cholesterol is converted to pregnenolone and progesterone by the ovaries, the adrenals, and the brain, if there is enough thyroid hormone and vitamin A, and if there are no interfering factors, such as too much carotene or unsaturated fatty acids. Progesterone deficiency is an indicator that something is wrong, and using a supplement of progesterone without investigating the nature of the problem isn't a good approach. The normal time to use a progesterone supplement is during the "latter half" of the cycle, the two weeks from ovulation until menstruation. If it is being used to treat epilepsy, cancer, emphysema, migraine or arthritis, or something else so serious that menstrual regularity isn't a concern, then it can be used at any time. If progesterone is used consistently, it can postpone menopause for many years.

 

[ilovethesea]

I have been taking it non-stop for close to a year now. I don't think I have missed a single period. I started high with the intent to scale down but every time I tried I felt worse again. So I have stayed on a high dose. But I do agree with PakPik in regards to figuring out what is going on that is causing excess estrogen if possible. I feel I am finally figuring it out but it has taken me a year to do so. I have felt comfortable staying at the high dosage because my health was so bad and because I am nearing peri-menopause.
However, whenever I have hear Ray Peat be questioned about high dosage or daily dosing he seems slightly uncomfortable with it. I can't remember which interview it was but someone asked if it was OK to take it everyday and he seemed to indicate that you could do it but to be very careful to get exactly the same dose everyday because otherwise you will throw off your cycle and therefore your hormones. They way people on the forum, myself included, are using it is definitely IMO different than Ray recommends.

My understanding is that the daily progesterone can stop ovulation if you are taking high enough levels to suppress LH and FSH (they trigger ovulation). I think you need the progesterone to drop low enough for at least a few days to start making LH and FSH again, otherwise if progesterone doesn't drop and you don't ovulate, you have all this unopposed estrogen being liberated from your tissues for that and the next cycle.

 

[ilovethesea]

I found that even huge doses of progesterone didn't make my menstrual pain and maladies disappear, although it helped a little. Then I realized this was due to my big, huge inflammatory degenerative state in my body and only when I significantly improved it, did my menstrual troubles disappear. I employed many strategies for that, besides the progesterone. I don't even take progesterone anymore -took it 10 months non stop-, it's like I'm producing my own now and estrogen is in check!

Ray has said T3 is a better solution than progesterone for cramps (I have experienced this to be true as well).

Cramps
It [PROGEST-E] can help with cramps, but it would probably take a lot; I think it's better to use thyroid (including T3) to solve the basic problem, since it will let you regulate the balance between estrogen and progesterone, while allowing your cells to balance the minerals, retaining the magnesium needed to prevent cramping. Increasing your intake of all the main minerals, calcium, sodium, potassium, and magnesium usually helps in the short term, but the balance isn't stable if your thyroid is low. Milk, orange juice, coffee (even decaffeinated coffee is a good source of magnesium), and well salted foods, support thyroid functions. Aspirin helps with thyroid function and mineral balance, even helps to prevent excessive estrogen production.

 

[ilovethesea]

@whodathunkit Most women ingest Progest-E, or just let it sit on gums and oral tissues (that's its primary mode of ingestion). It doesn't absorb very well transdermally, although it can be used that way mixing with a little warm olive oil per Peat's recommendation.

Also not much absorbs topically to bother. LitaLee Online

Myth Number 2: Progesterone is absorbed better transdermally, than orally.

Wrong! Peat says that progesterone is best absorbed orally, next vaginally and third transdermally (on the skin). When I asked for a reference he told me a story. “A doctor I know did not believe the oral absorption route so he decided to do an experiment. He took 1/4-teaspoon of progesterone in natural vitamin E oil and then took periodic blood samples. He found that the progesterone rose immediately, and peaked at about 1-1/2 hours at about 20 ng/dl, which corresponds to the high luteal phase level. Thereafter, it tapered off.” Compared to oral absorption, which is nearly 100%, transdermal absorption is about 10-20%.

 

[whodathunkit]

@PakPik, @Elle, @thebigpeatowski: You ladies have experience with progesterone.

I just started spotting. Started progesterone about 3 weeks ago on day 2 or 3 of my period. It's about a normal time for my period, within the caveat that I'm not very normal right now due to time of life or whatever. I've been having short cycles juxtapoased with longer ones than normal. I don't know if this is actually my period or just a blip, though.

Think I should just keep dosing myself with progesterone? Or stop and bring it on? I've been having good results with it and think it's doing good things for my mood and metabolism. I'm inclined to push through but just seeking advice from more experienced users.

Also, would it be beneficial to increase dose?

Thanks for any advice. Anyone else with advice or experience is welcome to chime in, as well.:)

 

[tara]

My (non-expert) guess is that either continuing a regular dose or taking a two week break are probably both OK. The more cautious approach would probably be to take a two week break during menstruation and up till after ovulation. If the progesterone is giving you enough relief that stopping it causes you suffering, that is probably grounds to continue it uninterrupted.
If you take it continuously, I think Peat has recommended keeping the dose very regular - the same amount every day.

I'm just curious...how do you guys manage the Progest-E without it messing up your clothes?

I rub it on gums according to Peat's recommendation. He says this give the fastest delivery. I've heard that applying it transdermally is slow delivery, and therefore it can stay in the system for quite a while after you stop applying it. Not sure how important this is, but t may be a reason to go for gums, esp. while figuring out how it works for you.

How much are you using?

 

[whodathunkit]

I rub it on gums according to Peat's recommendation. He says this give the fastest delivery. I've heard that applying it transdermally is slow delivery, and therefore it can stay in the system for quite a while after you stop applying it. Not sure how important this is, but t maybe a reason to go for gums, esp. while figuring out how it works for you.

Thanks, tara. I've actually been taking the Progest-E orally as others have had good results and I saw in one of Peat's newer pieces that it gets absorbed fast even in the throat and stomach because of the vitamin E.

I think I'll keep on going for a while. I suspect if I try to stop dosing at this point I will regret. And so might everyone who comes in contact with me after I do.

 

[tara]

And so might everyone who comes in contact with me after I do.

Yea, I had to take that into consideration for my kids sake too. :)