Anyone Taking Progesterone During Their Cycle?

[Elle]

I recently tested mid-level estrogen and low progesterone with a ratio of 43:1, so I started progesterone 12 days ago. I worked my way up to 100mg a day, planning on dosing down after 10 days at 100mg. Surprisingly (to me), some of my symptoms have improved during that time. Today, I started my period--exactly on the same schedule--and I am still experiencing the same cramping as before. Therefore, I assume I am still in estrogen dominance. I was planning on just taking progesterone for the last two weeks of each cycle, as I don't want to actively disturb it, but I'm confused as to if it would. I can't seem to find much information on the effect it would have if I continued to supplement progesterone, especially if I've already started menstruation. (If it matters, I'm 33 and have almost always had regular cycles accompanied with PMS.)

Does anyone here have any experience with this? Would it be okay to still take it, but at a lower dose? Or should I just hold out until the latter part of this cycle? Any help or insight would be very much appreciated!

 

[PakPik]

Hi Elle, let me share my thoughts.
First of all, progesterone is an aid to get a woman through an inflammatory, unbalanced state. But it's just that: an aid, and as Peat says when there's overt estrogen dominance there's not much progesterone even in high doses can do if the high estrogen production isn't corrected. So, it's important to identify why estrogen is being produced too much/is being accumulated too much.
That being said, progesterone is great for many things. I personally used it non-stop through my cycle, because I used it mainly to help my nervous and immune system (besides the PMS itself), but my periods kept coming, I never missed one. I don't know if there's any concern over that practice, but in my case my ill health required extreme interventions and I am glad I took progesterone.
If estrogen dominance is overt, low doses most probably won't help. I think it is sort of a consensus that the more estrogen in the tissues, the more progesterone needed to counteract it. So, it is a personal dose.

I found that even huge doses of progesterone didn't make my menstrual pain and maladies disappear, although it helped a little. Then I realized this was due to my big, huge inflammatory degenerative state in my body and only when I significantly improved it, did my menstrual troubles disappear. I employed many strategies for that, besides the progesterone. I don't even take progesterone anymore -took it 10 months non stop-, it's like I'm producing my own now and estrogen is in check!

Hope this helps :)

 

[Lecarpetron]

I'm taking it through my entire cycle, and I have found that it shortens my cycle rather than stopping it. So, all else equal, I experience MORE cramps with Progest-E than without. However, I've only mega-dosed once (my cramps didn't budge) and plan to try 1/3 bottle per week in the near future per rec of an old Peatarian thread.

But...it makes sense that Progest-E can help move you in the right direction, but can only take you so far without greater systemic change as noted by PakPik.

 

[tara]

I've taken progest-e nearly every day for more than 2 years. Menstrual cycle continued. May have been a bit irregular in timing (I wasn't tracking carefully), which may have been when I was accidentally irregular with dosing. I am approaching menopause time.
I don't generally get cramping these days, so can't report about that. I had two weeks off progest -e last month for the first time since starting, and had worse migraine - may be related or maybe sth else. Currently intending to continue daily doses ~3 drops twice daily (it was much higher for the first year or so).

 

[Elle]

Thank you so much-that does help. I am working on identifying the root cause of the issue. As my progesterone tested low and my estrogen tested mid-normal, I'm not sure if it's a matter of excess estrogen or simply a lack of production progesterone. I don't know what my xenoestrogen load is, so the estrogen could be a bigger problem than the tests reflect. But I will say that so far *knock on wood*, I haven't experienced a flare-up of estrogen dominance symptoms since starting progesterone, so perhaps it is just a matter of under-production of progesterone. What could be causing that is another question. I suspect it could be vitamin deficiencies that I need to work on. Hopefully, with the way progesterone is benefitting me, I can start absorbing nutrients better and be on the way to naturally producing sufficient progesterone. I don't like the idea of taking anything forever.

It's awesome that it worked so well for you when you needed it! I will try continuing the progesterone and see what happens. Like you said, it's about personal dosage and perhaps I just need to find mine.

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[PowertothePeatple]

I have been taking it non-stop for close to a year now. I don't think I have missed a single period. I started high with the intent to scale down but every time I tried I felt worse again. So I have stayed on a high dose. But I do agree with PakPik in regards to figuring out what is going on that is causing excess estrogen if possible. I feel I am finally figuring it out but it has taken me a year to do so. I have felt comfortable staying at the high dosage because my health was so bad and because I am nearing peri-menopause.
However, whenever I have hear Ray Peat be questioned about high dosage or daily dosing he seems slightly uncomfortable with it. I can't remember which interview it was but someone asked if it was OK to take it everyday and he seemed to indicate that you could do it but to be very careful to get exactly the same dose everyday because otherwise you will throw off your cycle and therefore your hormones. They way people on the forum, myself included, are using it is definitely IMO different than Ray recommends.

 

[tara]

someone asked if it was OK to take it everyday and he seemed to indicate that you could do it but to be very careful to get exactly the same dose everyday because otherwise you will throw off your cycle and therefore your hormones.

I think that I may have triggered menstruation by accidentally missing or taking lower doses some days. I'm much more careful now to take the same amount every day.

 

[PakPik]

Oh, and I forgot to say, there's this book by Katharina Dalton, the pioneer doctor on PMS and women's hormonal issues (Peat mentions her a lot). Before taking progesterone I read several chapters, and it gave me the confidence to try high doses of progesterone for prolonged period of time. I was somehow concerned about hormones but that book convinced me it was worth it. She treated thousands of women with high dose natural progesterone and she changed lives and restored families. Cured a lot of women from epilepsy, asthma, psychiatric issues, etc. She did follow ups decades later and the women were healthy and their pregnancxies were wonderful, very healthy intelligent babies. That was good to hear! @Lecarpetron @PowertothePeatple @tara

 

[SQu]

I couldn't do without it. Menopausal somewhat but still cycling, PMS. I do find it best to start on the 12th day but sometimes I've gone through when I felt I couldn't do without it. Some other helpful things I also couldn't do without are gelatin (lots) salt and aspirin especially in the week before the period. I schedule salty gelatin broths for then. This turns a nightmare into a breeze for me. Magnesium for cramps. All much more effective for being done pre emptively, well before symptoms.

 

[Elle]

Oops--I'm just now seeing everyone else's reply after PakPik's! Thank you all so much for your responses--they've really helped a lot! Considering what you are all saying, I think I will continue to dose daily for a while and see how that goes. My instinct was that it would probably be okay, at least temporarily, but I really wanted some back-up to feel more comfortable about it. I've just always been hesitant about interfering with hormones and even after testing and educating myself, I'm still a little wary. Thanks for the suggestion about Katharina Dalton, PakPik! It sounds like I would definitely benefit from that book.

Lecarpetron, that's interesting that it makes your cramps worse. I would love a shorter cycle, but not if it means worse cramps! I will be prepared for the possibility. So far the severity seems the same and I guess I'll see about the length...

Tara, I think I know what you mean about your migraine. One of the benefits I'm noticing is (again, knock on wood) that it seems to be helping my headaches, both frequency and severity. I didn't take as much yesterday and I woke up with a headache this morning. I took a dose orally and rubbed a little on the base of my neck, where my headaches start, and feel fine now. And another time, when I woke up with what felt like the start of one my headaches, I took progesterone and never had to take anything else. And yes, it could be placebo, but considering my past experiences, I'm doubtful. What you said has now got me thinking that when I decide to reduce my dosage, I will taper off instead of stopping completely. Are you doing something else in particular to mitigate the cramps or is that just a result of a Peat lifestyle?

PowertothePeatple (love your name!), that is a good point about dosing. I have been trying to be careful with even dosing, but I am struggling with the timing. I'm not sure if spacing is as important as the actual amount, but I'm bad about forgetting at work and trying to hold it under my tongue for a while before swallowing isn't always possible.

SQu, thank you for the reminder about salt! I did notice this cycle that I was strangely craving more salt than sugar, which is unusual. I used to crave salt a lot, but that craving switched to sugar a while back. I'm hoping this is a good sign. I've been taking aspirin the last couple of weeks, but I'm starting to suspect it's worsening my leaky gut and it certainly didn't seem to help my cramps. I've also been taking magnesium for years now and that seems to have little to no effect. I don't know if I'm just not taking enough for my needs or if I'm just not absorbing it or what. I keep meaning to try trans-dermal. Add that to the list...

Again, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your replies! This is absolutely the kindest, most educational, and most supportive forum I've ever encountered. Thanks everyone!

 

[tara]

Are you doing something else in particular to mitigate the cramps or is that just a result of a Peat lifestyle?

I had horrible debilitating cramps (with nausea and faintness) from late teens to late twenties. Stopped long before I read of Peat. Don't know why.

 

[SQu]

I've also been taking magnesium for years now and that seems to have little to no effect. I don't know if I'm just not taking enough for my needs or if I'm just not absorbing it or

Me too for years, maybe check you're getting enough calories for stuff to work. (It's often mentioned here, search.) If you are, then look up magnesium here too (ditto) for ways, forms that work. Very worthwhile to do this.

 

[whodathunkit]

This is a really great thread, and very serendipitous for this noob!

Has anyone else in this thread had bad experiences with progesterone in the past? It always seemed to make my uterine fibroids much worse, as has gelatin. Swells them up something terrible. I have large and multiple fibroids, and experience very heavy bleeding. Thankfully no cramping of note since taking saw palmetto years ago, but the heavy bleeding has never really abated.

I saw in another thread about glycine that both progesterone and glycine (and therefore gelatin) can liberate estrogen from other cells, thereby precipitating an excess of estrogen in circulation. After reading that it makes sense to me that both gelatin and progesterone has caused me problems in the past, maybe by liberating estrogen from other cells, freeing it to work upon the receptors on my fibroids. I dunno. I don't understand all about it, but I did experience something similar with bromide toxicity when I first started supplementing with iodine.

So my question: did anyone experiencing success with progesterone now experience a worsening of symptoms before things got better?

Also, what progesterone products are you using?

 

[Elle]

Me too for years, maybe check you're getting enough calories for stuff to work. (It's often mentioned here, search.) If you are, then look up magnesium here too (ditto) for ways, forms that work. Very worthwhile to do this.

Thanks for the tip--it hadn't occurred to me yet to look up magnesium issues on here. Will do!

 

[PakPik]

This is a really great thread, and very serendipitous for this noob!

Has anyone else in this thread had bad experiences with progesterone in the past? It always seemed to make my uterine fibroids much worse, as has gelatin. Swells them up something terrible. I have large and multiple fibroids, and experience very heavy bleeding. Thankfully no cramping of note since taking saw palmetto years ago, but the heavy bleeding has never really abated.

I saw in another thread about glycine that both progesterone and glycine (and therefore gelatin) can liberate estrogen from other cells, thereby precipitating an excess of estrogen in circulation. After reading that it makes sense to me that both gelatin and progesterone has caused me problems in the past, maybe by liberating estrogen from other cells, freeing it to work upon the receptors on my fibroids. I dunno. I don't understand all about it, but I did experience something similar with bromide toxicity when I first started supplementing with iodine.

So my question: did anyone experiencing success with progesterone now experience a worsening of symptoms before things got better?

Also, what progesterone products are you using?

Most women here use the Progest-E product.

I don't have fibroids that I know of, but found interesting the fact that some people say that progesterone and estrogen help them grow (I wish I knew the explanation to this and if it's legit):

"Lupron and Synarel are two of the medications that work by temporarily shutting off the ovaries' ability to make estrogen and progesterone, and menstrual periods temporarily cease. Since estrogen and progesterone are necessary for fibroids to grow, the lack of hormones causes fibroids to shrink."

"Two medications used to treat uterine fibroids are now in clinical trials. Both drugs act by blocking the growth-promoting action of progesterone on fibroids"
Conservative Treatment for Fibroids | OBGYN.Net


However, there's evidence saying progesterone can help shrink the fibroids.

"Several old studies have suggested that progesterone may inhibit growth of uterine fibroids. Lipshutz demonstrated that progesterone administered to guinea pigs prevented formation of tumors that had been induced by estrogen. In 1946, Goodman reported six cases of clinically diagnosed uterine fibroids that regressed after using progesterone therapy.

Dr. John Lee poses that because uterine fibroids are a result of estrogen stimulation and what he calls “estrogen dominance,” the corrective solution is to use progesterone. He asserts that estrogen dominance is a much greater problem than recognized by conventional medicine. “Since many women in their mid-thirties begin to have nonovulating cycles, they are producing much less progesterone than expected, but still producing normal ( or more) estrogen. When sufficient natural progesterone is replaced, fibroid tumors no longer grow in size (they generally decrease in size) and can be kept from growing until menopause, after which they will atrophy. This is the effect of reversing estrogen dominance.”" Uterine Fibroids – Women’s Health Update « Dr. Tori Hudson, N.D.


It's worth noting that there's a claim that progesterone and estrogen sensitize each other's receptor -maybe that's why some people get estrogenic symptoms from preogesterone?:

"Estrogen and progesterone need each other, as each of them sensitizes receptor sites for the other. As Dr. John Lee says,"The presence of estrogen makes body target tissues more sensitive to progesterone and the presence of progesterone does the same for estrogen."" Progesterone Deficiency, Yes; Estrogen, Maybe... | ENCOGNITIVE.COM

 

[Elle]

This is a really great thread, and very serendipitous for this noob!

Has anyone else in this thread had bad experiences with progesterone in the past? It always seemed to make my uterine fibroids much worse, as has gelatin. Swells them up something terrible. I have large and multiple fibroids, and experience very heavy bleeding. Thankfully no cramping of note since taking saw palmetto years ago, but the heavy bleeding has never really abated.

I saw in another thread about glycine that both progesterone and glycine (and therefore gelatin) can liberate estrogen from other cells, thereby precipitating an excess of estrogen in circulation. After reading that it makes sense to me that both gelatin and progesterone has caused me problems in the past, maybe by liberating estrogen from other cells, freeing it to work upon the receptors on my fibroids. I dunno. I don't understand all about it, but I did experience something similar with bromide toxicity when I first started supplementing with iodine.

So my question: did anyone experiencing success with progesterone now experience a worsening of symptoms before things got better?

Also, what progesterone products are you using?

I haven't had a bad experience yet, but it's early days. Also, I realize that my symptoms are minimal compared to a lot of people here. So far, the worst I can say is that I had a thyroid storm after my first dose and had to work my way up slowly to 100mg a day. It's only just starting to have the sedative effect on me that a lot of people cite. Are you mega-dosing progesterone to push through the initial flare-up of estrogen dominance? I've read in several places to do this, but I defer to the others here who have more experience and knowledge, as I am a noob myself. I have read a lot about worsening of symptoms before an improvement, though. Have you checked out progesteronetherapy.com? There is some useful information there, though I will tell you that her answer to everything seems to be to take more progesterone. It may also be useful to check out other ways to deal with the estrogen, such as vitamin E, aspirin, carrot salad, etc.

I'm currently taking Progestelle because of it's availability on Amazon and the only difference (that I'm aware of) between it and Progest E is that it's in coconut oil instead of vitamin E. I keep meaning to order Progest E or Haidut's progesterone product, but I just haven't gotten around to it. I need to hurry up, as they seem to be more economical sources. I'm also interested in what everyone else is taking--are there any particular products/manufacturers that seem to be better than others?

 

[whodathunkit]

Thanks, @PakPik and @Elle!

Interestingly, I just got kind of a reaction from an old bottle of Progest-E I happened to find in a drawer of of my fridge a week or so ago. I'd long ago forgotten about it and if I hadn't seen it last week I wouldn't have had anything to try today. How's that for serendipity?

Anyway, I rubbed a bunch of it on my stomach and just a couple minutes later got the urge to take off the flannel overshirt I've had on all day. Whatever that may mean. It wasn't a hot flash, I just got warmer. My feet and hands feel warmer now as I'm typing this, still sans the flannel shirt. My metabolism has been off lately due to weight loss and some various diet strategies, and I've actually had to raise the temp in my house several degrees. So maybe the warming is a good thing. I'll continue to use the old stuff until the Progestene I just ordered arrives.

The current fibroid swelling is an odd thing. For a few weeks I've been taking an herbal acetylcholinesterase (AChE, sorry if you already knew that) inhibitor for mood, cognition, and blood sugar issues. Loved it. Seemed to help all three. But my fibroids began to swell. Caffeine is also an AChE inhibitor, and has a strong link to promoting growth in fibroids.

Then I started taking glycine for digestive issues which may be related to the nervous system and acetylcholine (ACh) levels somehow (I think I have low ACh). Fibroids got bigger.

Then I came to this forum because someone else got me re-thinking about Peat, and I found a post by @hairdut talking about glycine and liberating estrogen stored in cells. Both glycine and progesterone have always made my fibroids swell/grow, for reasons that previously never made any sense. Serendipity again.

I've been thinking for a couple of weeks now that maybe there's a connection between sex hormones and ACh that isn't widely known. Somehow I just don't think it all boils down to manipulating estrogen and progesterone, although I'm not much of a science head so may just be talking out my [redacted]. Does anyone with a better brain than me have any idea what it may be? I just find it odd that all these various things precipitate the same symptoms.

 

[whodathunkit]

I found that even huge doses of progesterone didn't make my menstrual pain and maladies disappear, although it helped a little. Then I realized this was due to my big, huge inflammatory degenerative state in my body and only when I significantly improved it, did my menstrual troubles disappear. I employed many strategies for that, besides the progesterone. I don't even take progesterone anymore -took it 10 months non stop-, it's like I'm producing my own now and estrogen is in check!

BTW, this is +++10 inspiring. :)

 

[whodathunkit]

I've read in several places to do this, but I defer to the others here who have more experience and knowledge, as I am a noob myself. I have read a lot about worsening of symptoms before an improvement, though.

My game plan right now is to try to push through the symptoms precipitated by progesterone and glycine. I've had good luck in the recent past with this "push through" strategy when it comes to other things that vastly improved my health. So it seems it's time to try with my uterus. I'll keep posting updates in case anyone is interested.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

My anecdotal two cents: Yes, my estrogen symptoms got worse before they got better. I pushed through taking insane amounts of Progest-E for my specific health issues and major estrogen dominance. I don't/didn't have fibroids that I know of, but I had a breast lump which has since gone away.

The large doses never made me miss a period , but I did trigger a couple of shorter cycles due to irregular dosing most likely.

Do you take thyroid meds? My decades of heavy bleeding finally stopped when I got on a decent amount of thyroid medication (with T3).