VERY Tender Breasts!

MelHawk2014

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Jul 11, 2014
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Hey all,
I just started high dosing on Progest-E. Before that I was using John Lee MD Progesteral and started getting sore breasts at around day 15 of a 27 day cycle. At the time I was starting skin application of progesteral from day 13 of my cycle until my period. After about 3 months I started to develop really tender breasts straight after the point I would have expected to ovulate. This month I have been taking Progest-E for 10 days at 5x 3 drops per day abd AGAIN the same problem with breast tenderness!

Now I understand this can be a sign that the progesterone is converting to estrogen which is exactly what I want to avoid! What do I need to do? I am dosing with 3 drops about 3 x per day right now but do I need to dose higher or lower?

Thanks in advance,
Mel :)
 

HDD

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Progesterone doesn't convert to estrogen. It antagonizes it.

"There’s a special problem with the basis for diagnosing estrogen deficiency, because in the absence of anti-estrogen substances such as progesterone, the estrogen in the blood can go to a very low level, because the estrogen is staying inside cells, and progesterone knocks it out of cells, inactivates it, but causes it to appear in the blood stream on its way out the kidneys. So, in the absence of progesterone, doctors will measure a low level of serum estrogen, and prescribe it, even though, under that situation, it’s very likely that their tissues, breast and uterus in particular, are actually overloaded with a chronic supply of estrogen."
 

HDD

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ray peat said:
Three to four drops, or about 10 to 15 milligrams of progesterone, is often enough to bring the progesterone level up to normal. That amount can be taken days 14 through 28 of the menstrual cycle; this amount may be repeated once or twice during the day as needed to alleviate symptoms. Since an essential mechanism of progesterone's action involves its opposition to estrogen, smaller amounts are effective when estrogen production is low, and if estrogen is extremely high, even large supplements of progesterone will have no clear effect; in that case, it is essential to regulate estrogen metabolism, by improving the diet, correcting a thyroid deficiency, etc. (Unsaturated fat is antithyroid and synergizes with estrogen.)

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/pr ... ries.shtml
 

honeybee

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Jan 22, 2013
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If you use the search engine and use kw "prolactin" and "breasts" you will find some discussions. I used to have this problem but since I balanced my b vitamins (specifically b6 p5p form) I no longer have this issue. I used topical progesterone too about 6 years ago as well as vitex (helped a lot but dosing is tricky) to help me with estrogen dominance issues. For me,nothing compares to progest E and the bs.
 

Blossom

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My breasts returned to being tender ( actually quite painful) when I was off cynoplus for only a couple weeks recently. After a few days of starting back on thyroid the tenderness began to lessen and after one week it was completely gone. I didn't change anything else so I believe the lack of adequate thyroid was the reason for my breast tenderness.
 

MelHawk2014

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Jul 11, 2014
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Blossom said:
My breasts returned to being tender ( actually quite painful) when I was off cynoplus for only a couple weeks recently. After a few days of starting back on thyroid the tenderness began to lessen and after one week it was completely gone. I didn't change anything else so I believe the lack of adequate thyroid was the reason for my breast tenderness.

Thank you Blossom. I am quite nervous about taking thyroid so I have not done so thus far. I don't feel I know enough to try it out. Any suggestions? Cheers, Mel :)
 

Sheila

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Nov 6, 2014
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Hi MelHawk2014
B1 at 100mg which is involved in liver clearance seems very helpful here. i certainly agree B6 helped me (10mg doses) but B1 seemed to be the clincher. And extra salt if you do not have sufficient already, say 1/2 tsp in water before bed.
Best regards
Sheila
 

Blossom

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MelHawk2014 said:
Blossom said:
My breasts returned to being tender ( actually quite painful) when I was off cynoplus for only a couple weeks recently. After a few days of starting back on thyroid the tenderness began to lessen and after one week it was completely gone. I didn't change anything else so I believe the lack of adequate thyroid was the reason for my breast tenderness.

Thank you Blossom. I am quite nervous about taking thyroid so I have not done so thus far. I don't feel I know enough to try it out. Any suggestions? Cheers, Mel :)
I completely understand. I'm not necessarily saying you should try thyroid but just wanted to share my personal experience. If you are able to solve your issue without thyroid that would be great! I really didn't appreciate thyroid fully until I had to go off of it completely in the middle of winter. It was surprising to me that my breasts became so sore during that time. I think there are quite a few forum members that do not use supplemental thyroid and still have good results. Obviously it is important that you feel knowledgeable and comfortable with trying thyroid if you decide to go that route. I researched it a lot and sought input from others before I ever tried it myself. Starting with 1/8th of a cynoplus and increasing this gradually every 3-4 weeks worked well for me but it was a long process of trial and error requiring monitoring of pulse and temps. Even now when summer comes I suspect I will need to cut back the dose based on my past experience. My highest dose was only 1/4 cynoplus twice per day so I was shocked that it made such a huge difference for me. Best of luck in resolving your issue in the way that works best for you.
 

tomisonbottom

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Apr 17, 2013
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907
If you use the search engine and use kw "prolactin" and "breasts" you will find some discussions. I used to have this problem but since I balanced my b vitamins (specifically b6 p5p form) I no longer have this issue. I used topical progesterone too about 6 years ago as well as vitex (helped a lot but dosing is tricky) to help me with estrogen dominance issues. For me,nothing compares to progest E and the bs.

How did you "balance" your b vitamins? What dose of which ones fixed the problem for you? Thanks!
 

David Chung

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Mar 12, 2016
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35
Progesterone doesn't convert to estrogen. It antagonizes it.
Progesterone does convert to estrogen.

As for the original poster's tenderness, I am not sure if it is caused by its conversion to estrogen. During puberty, progesterone is involved in maturation of breasts. For some people, after the maturation, if progesterone is taken (orally or transdermally), tenderness can develop for the breasts. Which makes sense - as progesterone is sometimes used to make breasts larger. For women, that is.
 
Last edited:

honeybee

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How did you "balance" your b vitamins? What dose of which ones fixed the problem for you? Thanks!
B6 is actually the one the helps the most with this issue. I use b1, b2, b5, b6, b12, folate, biotin and niacinamide at different times of the day in different doses. I notice when things are out of balance-the most noticeable are when b5 and biotin are out of balance. They all do different things but its noticeable for instance when I don't take b5-my sleep suffers. if I take biotin without b5, my skin gets really dry. B6 (I use p5p) seems to help reduce prolactin/estrogen and is very effective for some folks.
Recently, I've since found more effective relief for this issue using methylene blue and lapodin.
 

HDD

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Progesterone does convert to estrogen.

As for the original poster's tenderness, I am not sure if it is caused by its conversion to estrogen. During puberty, progesterone is involved in maturation of breasts. For some people, after the maturation, if progesterone is taken (orally or transdermally), tenderness can develop for the breasts. Which makes sense - as progesterone is sometimes used to make breasts larger. For women, that is.
Sometimes progesterone can cause an underactive enlarged thyroid gland to begin secreting, temporarily producing mild hypothyroidism while the gland returns to a normal size. Supplemental progesterone can reduce excessive cortisol production.

Since progesterone helps the thyroid to secrete, and helps the liver to regulate glucose and convert T4 to T3, women who are low in progesterone usually have hypothyroid symptoms (because of insufficient T3), including high cortisol, which promotes the synthesis of estrogen (in several ways, but never from progesterone). Cortisol is made from progesterone, but increasing the supply of progesterone reliably lowers cortisol synthesis, acting on the brain, pituitary, and adrenal glands. Progesterone, by many mechanisms, including its antagonism to cortisol, lowers the amount of estrogen in cells (causing the estrogen-binding proteins to be degraded, inhibiting the enzymes that release estrogen from the sulfates and glucuronides, and activating the enzymes that detoxify estrogen). So I think the symptoms of increased estrogen and cortisol are the result of either extraneous ingredients in the creams, or from using it at the wrong time, for example, too early, triggering premature ovulation. Supplementing a small amount of T3, Cytomel or Cynomel, usually stops symptoms such as breast pain, irritability, and restless energy, in less than an hour.

Some will enter your blood stream very quickly from the mouth membranes, but taking it with food the effect will be more gradual and prolonged.

I think it's most effective when you take it cyclically; imitating the menstrual cycle, with two week on and two off, would be good, unless you are using it to control some symptom.

Progesterone won't turn into estrogen, but along with thyroid and aspirin it will tend to reduce the amount of estrogen in the body. If you have symptoms, you could adjust the dose according to the effect; I have seen some people start recovering immediately with just 10 mg of progesterone, but it depends on the balance of other hormones.

Peatarian.com Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki
 

Peat Tong

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I haven't found an explanation of how supplementing progesterone as low as 3mg during the luteal phase causes estrogenic symptoms (irritability, tender breasts.)
Another source says Estrogen Receptors are sensitized.
 

HDD

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I haven't found an explanation of how supplementing progesterone as low as 3mg during the luteal phase causes estrogenic symptoms (irritability, tender breasts.)
Another source says Estrogen Receptors are sensitized.

The following was posted today in the Ray Peat email thread.


“The question is below, first is the answer from dr Peat, sorry for that

Have you checked your temperature and pulse rate cycles, to see if the progesterone affects them? What about your thyroid function? Low thyroid function commonly causes beast swelling. Under the influence of progesterone, estrogen is converted to the water soluble sulfate and glucuronide forms, to be excreted; if there is inflammation, from an infection or injury, these inactivated forms of estrogen can be re-activated in the inflamed tissue.


Dear dr Peat,

Whenever I take progest-e or even pregnenolone my breasts become a little swallen, tender and the right breast getpainful with some sort of protrusion which I can feel with my fingers. Do you think itmight be estrogen pushed into the bloodstream? Should I ignore this symptom and continue administration until it vanishes?
It happened even when I applied small amounts of progest-e topically.
I'll be grateful for any tips.”
 

jamies33

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Progesterone doesn't convert to estrogen. It antagonizes it.

"There’s a special problem with the basis for diagnosing estrogen deficiency, because in the absence of anti-estrogen substances such as progesterone, the estrogen in the blood can go to a very low level, because the estrogen is staying inside cells, and progesterone knocks it out of cells, inactivates it, but causes it to appear in the blood stream on its way out the kidneys. So, in the absence of progesterone, doctors will measure a low level of serum estrogen, and prescribe it, even though, under that situation, it’s very likely that their tissues, breast and uterus in particular, are actually overloaded with a chronic supply of estrogen."
Sorry for bumping this old post. If a person's progesterone increased quickly, and estrogen were dumped in the blood, would they exhibit symptoms of that estrogen until excretion?
 

Hugh Johnson

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Progesterone does convert to estrogen.

As for the original poster's tenderness, I am not sure if it is caused by its conversion to estrogen. During puberty, progesterone is involved in maturation of breasts. For some people, after the maturation, if progesterone is taken (orally or transdermally), tenderness can develop for the breasts. Which makes sense - as progesterone is sometimes used to make breasts larger. For women, that is.
However, I think it has to become Androstenedione and then Testosterone before becoming Estrogen. Seems like an unlikely pathway for it to take in large amounts.
 

HDD

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Sorry for bumping this old post. If a person's progesterone increased quickly, and estrogen were dumped in the blood, would they exhibit symptoms of that estrogen until excretion?
That is my understanding and might need to use more progesterone.
 
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