RP Says Glucose Helps T4 To T3, Then Why Fructose?

[haidut]

So, my main point is that burning sugar is definitely preferable to burning fat based on both Peat's writings and all the studies I have seen about liver disease being caused by increased lipid peroxidation byproducts, and cirrhosis (in alcoholic rats) being easily and succesfully treated by feeding about 60g-70g of saturated fat like butter or coconut oil for a week, while the rats kept drinking alcohol at the same time! So, on the point of burning sugar I think the question is settled that it is preferable to burning fat.

Haidut, thanks for the long post.

In the paragraphs about burning sugar being preferable to burning fat, how do you know? For me it has been a grey area of Ray's articles. I keep reading but they don't give a clear indication of how much sugar and/or fat. Of course, I'm talking about saturated, not pufa.

There are many things that seem good about saturated fat. Including CO2 or raising T3/T4 well, according to studies. From my experience, a good and generous source of saturated fat is essential for everything metabolic: cortistol (or stress), temperature, mood, sleep etc. So, surprisingly if I use many of Ray's teaching (eat whatever raises your metabolism), I often conclude fat should take a key role... In contrast, I find it much less important to get a huge amount of sugar. For things like starch, I find its the contrary (important to limit the amount).

Maybe I should have said burning sugar is preferable to burning PUFA, but even burning saturated fat generates less CO2 than burning glucose/fructose, at least based on the studies I have seen. Also, I posted a study long time ago that showed burning fat (saturated or otherwise) resulted in elevated serotonin. I don't know the specifics but in theory fatty acids in the blood, from any type of fat, would displace tryptophan from albumin and shuttle it to the brain resulting in elevated serotonin in the brain. Can't remember if this was the reason for elevated serotonin in that study, but something to keep in mind. Finally, overfeeding on saturated fat (let alone PUFA) WILL result in weight gain as Peat himself has said many times.
I can certainly see the place of saturated fat for therapeutic purposes, since the studies on liver disease showed that the saturated fat healed the liver by both inhibiting PUFA oxidation damage to liver cells and also by uncoupling the mitochondria of liver cells. But I am not sure we have evidence that it is healthy to rely on fat as the main source of fuel in the long run. Does anybody know of studies on ketogenic diets using saturated fat only/primarily?

 

[moss]

Hi Moss,

I'm struggling with the abdomen bulge, and also a stomach that swells up when I eat. I had low carbed before I came to Peat, and think I am going through refeeding syndrome for the most part.

How did you increase calories? I'm trying to do that every day, even as I am switching slowly to a more milk-based diet.

What herbs did you take for liver support and how long?

How much K did you take, and what benefits did you see?

I do take thyroid and am presently fiddling with the dosage due to changed needs.

thanks

Hi sunmountain

You mention going through a 'refeeding'. As you know, going slowly is your best bet. Noting what you eat and when your stomach swells (or doesn't) then you can start to get a picture of what best suits YOUR body. I went full on, with full cream milk, having not drunk it since I was a kid aside from in my coffee, and it took awhile to adjust. What I was trying to get across in my post is that I was not taking in enough fuel to get the fire going, basically I was just throwing on the kindling. Still have a way to go but eating often (in 2-3 hourly feeds works best for me). Very wary of diets or weight loss terminology. I think that brings up connotations of deprivation and not helpful. I needed to put on weight (previously a starver without even realising) and continued till I developed a bulge around my abdomen. This is reducing because I have now increased my metabolic rate and it tweak as needed.You asked about liver support, there a a number of herbs helpful, I was using both Gentian and Dandelion for around 6 weeks then stopped. Currently using K2 - 10 drops a day for a couple of weeks then will reduce dose as I now believe this may also be helpful for liver support. Anything to improve your liver will ultimately be helpful. I take niacinamide regularly across the day in 250mg doses, plenty of coffee and working up to 5 cups a day with no issues - coffee is a wonderful metabolic lift and I see it as a 'complete food'. In the coffee goes a good amount of gelatin, sugar, milk. Drink around 2 cups OJ daily and other juices and much of the other foods that fit along with Peat's principles including the the Bs, Progest- e etc. Currently trying to locate a good liquid vitamin A as I have run out of nutrisorb. I think bottom line, it is good to mix it up and experiment as much as possible and be attune to how your body respond with foods etc. Good luck.
moss

 

[jyb]

Maybe I should have said burning sugar is preferable to burning PUFA, but even burning saturated fat generates less CO2 than burning glucose/fructose, at least based on the studies I have seen. Also, I posted a study long time ago that showed burning fat (saturated or otherwise) resulted in elevated serotonin. I don't know the specifics but in theory fatty acids in the blood, from any type of fat, would displace tryptophan from albumin and shuttle it to the brain resulting in elevated serotonin in the brain. Can't remember if this was the reason for elevated serotonin in that study, but something to keep in mind. Finally, overfeeding on saturated fat (let alone PUFA) WILL result in weight gain as Peat himself has said many times.
I can certainly see the place of saturated fat for therapeutic purposes, since the studies on liver disease showed that the saturated fat healed the liver by both inhibiting PUFA oxidation damage to liver cells and also by uncoupling the mitochondria of liver cells. But I am not sure we have evidence that it is healthy to rely on fat as the main source of fuel in the long run. Does anybody know of studies on ketogenic diets using saturated fat only/primarily?

I'm not so concerned about weight gain with more dietary fat personally, especially since my metabolism is better. The problem with studies on "ketogenic diet" is that they could be stressful, deficiency in all sorts of stuff discussed on this forum, and the keto diet has rules about no milk for example (maybe because milk contains sugar?). So that's completely different than what I have in mind.

 

[Suikerbuik]

our knowledge on the issues causing microbiome disbalance is probably limited at the moment so he refrains from making more definitive statements.

Yeah. I think we should expand the term microbiome beyond what's in our gut but rather our whole body. Our body is probably a whole reservoir of micro-organisms and antibiotics won't reach those.

Over 700 species Are found in breast milk. They are said to come from the gut. Last year a group has shown that there are viable bacteria in every section they took from breast tissue. I am not sure how that proces of colonization goes but likely via the bloodstream?? If this is the case wouldn't other organs come in contact with these? or maybe these tissues harbour bacteria too!? Or do tissues have 'active' tissue resident macrophages and the breast tissue does not? (which is mainly adipose tissue). For example a particular hormonal enviroment maybe attracts bacteria and modulates their killing profoundly?
Fat (adipose tissue) for example is already hypothsised and found to be a reservoir of bacteria. Is Adipose Tissue a Place for Mycobacterium tuberculosis Persistence?.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Great, almost thought I lost it but here's another one for IBD, see figure 4. Differences in Visceral Fat and Fat Bacterial Colonization between Ulcerative Colitis and Crohn’s Disease. An In Vivo and In Vitro Study

 

[SQu]

Haidut what a great post. After 7 years of low carb adding sugar back made some small temporary initial improvements followed by deterioration - the loss of strength, worse aching, big weight gain, worse sleep, liverish feeling, nauseous, constipation worse, sore feet and ankles, edema and temporary husky voice. Fortunately aspirin and thyroid do work for me. Still, I haven't got far yet in terms of recovery and it's 3.5 years now, 1.5 peating. Right now I'm hoping that some Peatian weight loss principles, low fat, no starch, high gelatin etc may help me accelerate progress by losing some weight and lowering estrogen. I'd love to know what else could help one burn, rather than just ingest, more sugar.

 

[cout12]

However, fructose does not seem to be well absorbed on its own (my own experiences with honey which often has a high ratio of f:g certainly attest to this) and is instead better absorded in the presence of equal quantities of glucose (i.e. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2065911).

Seconding this. Pure fructose does not absorb well. Malabsorbed fructose goes to feed endotoxin production. This explains all the negative results of pure fructose, which is commonly fed in experiments. Sucrose, not to mention real f***ing whole food, has very different effects.

Is there a way to know if the fructose is malabsorbed? My grocery store sells fructose powder and I've been getting a few tablespoons a day for more than a year.

 

[arien]

Is there a way to know if the fructose is malabsorbed? My grocery store sells fructose powder and I've been getting a few tablespoons a day for more than a year.

I noticed gas and loose stools. It's been some time, so I cannot remember whether this was accompanied by psychological symptoms of endotoxin absorption.

 

[dd99]

Haidut, that was a brilliant post. Thank you. It and the subsequent responses to it seem to address and connect issues I hadn't realised I had.

Since I switched from intermittent fasting (Leangains) to my form of Peating about 9 months ago (125g protein from dairy, eggs, gelatin, liver, meat and seafood; 400g carbs, mainly from fruit and fruit juice; 60g fat of which less than 5g pufa), I have improved my temperature and pulse and BMs dramatically. But I have developed a fatter stomach and the upper abdomen bulge other posters have mentioned. Most worryingly, my cherry angiomas - apparently a sign that my liver cannot remove estrogen fast enough - have exploded in number. Probably doubled in 9 months of Peating. I have been taking vitamins ADKE and Bs and at least 1g of niacinamide a day.

Could niacinamide be causing a sluggish liver and these red cherry angiomas? What sort of dosages of K2 should I consider for liver support - and how would that impact the dosages of the other fat soluble vitamins? Are there any other things people have found that helped get their livers working?

 

[fyo]

However, fructose does not seem to be well absorbed on its own (my own experiences with honey which often has a high ratio of f:g certainly attest to this) and is instead better absorded in the presence of equal quantities of glucose (i.e. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2065911).

Seconding this. Pure fructose does not absorb well. Malabsorbed fructose goes to feed endotoxin production. This explains all the negative results of pure fructose, which is commonly fed in experiments. Sucrose, not to mention real f***ing whole food, has very different effects.

Is there a way to know if the fructose is malabsorbed? My grocery store sells fructose powder and I've been getting a few tablespoons a day for more than a year.

If you don't notice any symptoms after taking it, for up to ~10 hours(?), such as gas, bloating, or mental pressure, etc, then I imagine its fine.

 

[dd99]

I just read haidut's comments in the Caffeine Is Bad For You thread (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5381)

So, to summarise, for liver health, caffeine, high dose K2 and glycine/taurine?

 

[SQu]

I could be wrong, but I take how I feel on niacinamide to indicate how my liver can handle it. Because I get clear symptoms. To start with I got headaches and recently, raising the dose from 300 to 500mg a day gave me arrhythmia. I can't handle pregnenolone yet either, but I don't know if that's because of my liver or not. Coffee I can't take too much of or I feel liverish. Sometimes the smell also comes through in the urine. I'd love to know more about liver support/healing too.

 

[haidut]

I just read haidut's comments in the Caffeine Is Bad For You thread (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5381)

So, to summarise, for liver health, caffeine, high dose K2 and glycine/taurine?

They all work via different mechanisms so combining them would probably have additive effect, as caffeine and vitamin K2 had for me. Caffeine mainly forces the liver to flush its fat out into the bloodstream, so it's a great treatment for NAFLD and I posted a study on that. I believe vitamin K2 works by stabilizing the so-called Kuppfer cells in the liver:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupffer_cell
At least that's what the studies I have seen on PubMed say. Also, we know that quinones like K2 makes mitochondria work better, so that's probably another mechanism behind K2 effects.
Glycine's mechanism of action has not been definitively pinpointed yet but it is a potent antiinflammatory and Peat gives many explanations about its effects - antiestrogenic, antiserotonin, antiexcitotoxic, etc. All of these effects will be beneficial for liver.
Finally, taurine is also a big of an enigma for liver health but some of its good effects have to do with protecting the liver from lipid peroxidation effect, and in fact one study compared it to vitamin E and found their effects to be virtually identical. Taurine also forces bile release and that may "cleanse" the gallbladder and liver in a way.
So, if you are willing to ingest all of those I would recommend combining them for a week and then maybe falling back on caffeine and K2 as I believe they specifically target the liver and are not sedative unlike glycine and taurine.

 

[SQu]

Thank you!

 

[dd99]

Thanks very much, haidut.

 

[nikotrope]

I've taken caffeine and vitamin k since Tuesday and it might be too early to conclude anything but I feel exceptionally well!

I've taken 3x100mg of caffeine, a red bull and some tea and upped caffeine to 3x200mg on friday. I didn't sleep until 3AM but I felt so good it might be the first time in 20 years that I felt this great (I'm 30 so most of my life). For the vitamin k it's a mix so I didn't take much and will order k2 mk4 soon

I will report in more details when I have more days at this level of energy but I really feel my estrogen is lower than usual. Also, my libido was not low but now it's through the roof. My temps don't drop below 99F (I usually am at 98.4-98.6F) and my pulse is at 90bpm on average (usually 75bpm).

Usually when I am hungry I can go without eating for a few hours and still feel fine, but now it's painful not too eat. Might be I burn more sugar than fat and need to refill my glycogen or my insulin sensitivity is better. I also felt this much caffeine was too much and might have raised my cortisol and adrenaline. I have tried to eat less this week (stupid me) and I will be sure to get enough calories today.

Anyway, thanks haidut! I've bought caffeine caps a few weeks ago but took just one or two, I should I taken more sooner!

NB: I never drank coffee, I drink some tea but it might contain too little caffeine to get this kind of effects.

 

[Suikerbuik]

Excuse me for going a off-topic again. A few days back:

our knowledge on the issues causing microbiome disbalance is probably limited at the moment so he refrains from making more definitive statements.

Yeah. I think we should expand the term microbiome beyond what's in our gut but rather our whole body. Our body is probably a whole reservoir of micro-organisms and antibiotics won't reach those.

Over 700 species Are found in breast milk. They are said to come from the gut. Last year a group has shown that there are viable bacteria in every section they took from breast tissue. I am not sure how that proces of colonization goes but likely via the bloodstream?? If this is the case wouldn't other organs come in contact with these? or maybe these tissues harbour bacteria too!? Or do tissues have 'active' tissue resident macrophages and the breast tissue does not? (which is mainly adipose tissue). For example a particular hormonal enviroment maybe attracts bacteria and modulates their killing profoundly?
Fat (adipose tissue) for example is already hypothsised and found to be a reservoir of bacteria. Is Adipose Tissue a Place for Mycobacterium tuberculosis Persistence?.

New science providing insight of what might be happening here:

Adipocytes have been suggested to be immunologically active, but their role in host defense is unclear. We observed rapid proliferation of preadipocytes and expansion of the dermal fat layer after infection of the skin by Staphylococcus aureus. Impaired adipogenesis resulted in increased infection as seen in Zfp423nur12 mice or in mice given inhibitors of peroxisome proliferator–activated receptor γ. This host defense function was mediated through the production of cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide from adipocytes because cathelicidin expression was decreased by inhibition of adipogenesis, and adipocytes from Camp−/− mice lost the capacity to inhibit bacterial growth. Together, these findings show that the production of an antimicrobial peptide by adipocytes is an important element for protection against S. aureus infection of the skin.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/347/6217/67.abstract

So adipocytes are capable of producing cathelicidin which is highly interesting. Cathelicidin is also termed ll-37. Also remember that post on 'vitamin' D suppletion suppressing ll-37 in prenatals.

 

[SQu]

If 100g cooked chard only has 29 ug K2 and an ounce of liver only has 0.9 ug K2 (crono) and we're talking 15mg as a goal, is there no practical dietary alternative to supplementing?

 

[haidut]

If 100g cooked chard only has 29 ug K2 and an ounce of liver only has 0.9 ug K2 (crono) and we're talking 15mg as a goal, is there no practical dietary alternative to supplementing?

You could try high dose CoQ10 or idebenone. I have not seen what Ray has written on those, but there are studies showing benefit for NAFLD from CoQ10. The doses were in the range of 300mg-500mg daily. Also, there are studies using 1,200mg and 2,400mg of CoQ10 for diabetes type II, which some people believe to be just another name for liver disease. Finally, 1,200mg-2,400mg of CoQ10 are currently in humans trials for Parkinson disease, so there must be something to the quinones like CoQ10 and K2.

 

[SQu]

Thanks for the suggestions. I used to find ubiquinone good but stopped it along with most supps due to silicon dioxide etc. It was also very expensive. I did notice an energy boost though. May be worth revisiting.