RP Says Glucose Helps T4 To T3, Then Why Fructose?

haidut

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Such_Saturation said:
I get the restless legs and caffeine always can cure those. I think somehow the motor neurons become starved for dopamine.

Yep, Ray said that RLS is either gut inflammation and/or low dopamine. I guess since endotoxin increases serotonin that would lead to higher prolactin and thus low dopamine.
 

Brian

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haidut said:
A possible exception is exemestane, which is actually a synthetic version of the hormone DHT and is much safer. Peat has even said that taking DHT topically would be a good idea, so this drug would be a possible alternative to topical DHT. In people it lowers estrogen, increases T and DHT and has anti-depressant activity.

What are your thoughts on Mesterolone as a synthetic DHT? It seems like a fairly potent and safe way for males to get estrogen, prolactin, and serotonin under control in a single drug at low doses, but it seems like it might not be potent enough for some.
 

haidut

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Brian said:
haidut said:
A possible exception is exemestane, which is actually a synthetic version of the hormone DHT and is much safer. Peat has even said that taking DHT topically would be a good idea, so this drug would be a possible alternative to topical DHT. In people it lowers estrogen, increases T and DHT and has anti-depressant activity.

What are your thoughts on Mesterolone as a synthetic DHT? It seems like a fairly potent and safe way for males to get estrogen, prolactin, and serotonin under control in a single drug at low doses, but it seems like it might not be potent enough for some.

I am not familiar with that drug, so I can't comment on it. In theory, lowering prolactin would increase dopamine and that has been shown to increase T and DHT in humans endogenously. It will also lower estrogen. The preferred way to handle hormones, IMHO, is to work on the brain since the brain controls all steroid production. In other words, the way to go is by optimizing brain function through changing neurotransmitters. Hormones are best left to the body to decide what to do about, and if supplementing with any hormones at all it should be substances that do not inhibit HPA axis or any of the negative feedback mechanisms. Progesterone, pregnenolone, and DHEA are safe in that regard. I think exemestane also does not suppress HPA or affect the LH/FSH system.
Btw, Peat's recommendation on DHT or T supplementation was in very low doses and for very short periods. It was meant as a way to restore metabolism, not hormone balance. The only reason I mentioned exemestane is that it is considered an AI drug and some people have asked Peat about it for controlling estrogen.
 

Strongbad

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Thank you, Haidut for a very detailed explanation of the possible solutions. Do you think it's okay to consume lots of salt as the anti-prolactin drug substitute while undergoing this liver detoxification phase? It's just more abundant and readily available in my kitchen :D

Cantstoppeating, how did you achieve no-fat diet to flush the fat out? Did you skip bone broth, eggs, organ meat etc.? I've been playing around with nutrient in Cronometer but I could never achieve no-fat. Or maybe you're referring to a very low fat diet, instead...
 
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Strongbad said:
Thank you, Haidut for a very detailed explanation of the possible solutions. Do you think it's okay to consume lots of salt as the anti-prolactin drug substitute while undergoing this liver detoxification phase? It's just more abundant and readily available in my kitchen :D

Cantstoppeating, how did you achieve no-fat diet to flush the fat out? Did you skip bone broth, eggs, organ meat etc.? I've been playing around with nutrient in Cronometer but I could never achieve no-fat. Or maybe you're referring to a very low fat diet, instead...

For my protein I use micellar casein protein powder. For sugar I use OJ, sucrose and fructose powder. I eat liver fried in coconut oil and make sure to drain it before storing in the fridge. I purposefully avoid all fat and I'd estimate I consume maybe 1-2g of saturated fat a day which comes from the liver, which at 3000 calories is insignificant enough to say I'm on a no-fat diet.
 

haidut

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Strongbad said:
Thank you, Haidut for a very detailed explanation of the possible solutions. Do you think it's okay to consume lots of salt as the anti-prolactin drug substitute while undergoing this liver detoxification phase? It's just more abundant and readily available in my kitchen :D

Cantstoppeating, how did you achieve no-fat diet to flush the fat out? Did you skip bone broth, eggs, organ meat etc.? I've been playing around with nutrient in Cronometer but I could never achieve no-fat. Or maybe you're referring to a very low fat diet, instead...

Not sure why salt would reduce prolactin. The only thing I know of is Peat mentioning that if a person does not eat at least 5g of salt per day serotonin starts rising. That does not mean extra salt will reduce serotonin or prolactin, or increase dopamine. It could, but I am not aware of any studies to back this claim up.
Vitamin E has been shown to lower prolactin in humans. I also posted threads on vitamin A increasing dopamine and vitamin K reducing estrogen. So, taking something like EstroBan or the ingredients in it would be much closer to a prolactin inhibitor than salt. Caffeine is dopaminergic too, and high doses of niacinamide antagonize serotonin.
 

Dan W

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Thank you for the great info as usual, Haidut.

haidut said:
However, if even 50g of protein gives you ammonia symptoms consistently then I'd get some tests done for liver and kidney function as it should not be happening.
To help people out, would ALT/AST for liver function and creatinine for kidney function be good defaults to try? For people in the US, those are available in a DirectLabs package for $29:
https://directlabs.com/OrderTests/MostP ... fault.aspx
 

Tom

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Strongbad said:
Now I'm confused. Tom recommended high protein, you also made a post about high protein diet to curb fatty liver, yet now it's counterproductive to do so.

I was more thinking about a calorie reduced diet coupled with high protein as percentage of energy, as well as low fat, not a high protein in absolute grams. The thinking is that a person for example ingest 1300-1400 calories, 30E% protein, 50E% carbs, and 20E% fats, and then he burns off 800 calories of his own fat stores, so in reality the "diet" is more like 17% protein, 33% carbs and 50% fats and 2200 calories. There´s been several small paleo trials showing that when protein is high enough and fat is reduced dramatically (eating lean meat, fruits, vegetables), calories will be automatically reduced dramatically so the persons will not be tired and hungry as they burn their own fat stores for energy. If the person experience such symptoms it is a sign it isn´t working and something else should be tried. Incidentally the "zone diet" which has been around for some decades now recommends 1200-1500 kcal, 30E% protein and I would assume many of these people had thyroid and liver issues. I don´t think such a diet is dangerous. But it could be considered a therapy worthwhile for a period of time in some cases where the benefits outweights the side effects
 

haidut

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Dan Wich said:
Thank you for the great info as usual, Haidut.

haidut said:
However, if even 50g of protein gives you ammonia symptoms consistently then I'd get some tests done for liver and kidney function as it should not be happening.
To help people out, would ALT/AST for liver function and creatinine for kidney function be good defaults to try? For people in the US, those are available in a DirectLabs package for $29:
https://directlabs.com/OrderTests/MostP ... fault.aspx

Yes, those would be the basics. However, if possible, for liver I would get AST, ALT, ALP, GGT, PT, PPT, billirubin, albumin, total protein. This should give you a decent idea if liver is injured and functioning well. Short of an ultrasound, I don't know of other tests that would give a more complete picture for liver.
The creatinine and BUN are good tests for kidney function but keep i mind that BUN can go over the limit if you are dehydrated. So, make sure to account for that or drink more fluids just before the test.
 

Strongbad

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haidut said:
Dan Wich said:
Thank you for the great info as usual, Haidut.

haidut said:
However, if even 50g of protein gives you ammonia symptoms consistently then I'd get some tests done for liver and kidney function as it should not be happening.
To help people out, would ALT/AST for liver function and creatinine for kidney function be good defaults to try? For people in the US, those are available in a DirectLabs package for $29:
https://directlabs.com/OrderTests/MostP ... fault.aspx

Yes, those would be the basics. However, if possible, for liver I would get AST, ALT, ALP, GGT, PT, PPT, billirubin, albumin, total protein. This should give you a decent idea if liver is injured and functioning well. Short of an ultrasound, I don't know of other tests that would give a more complete picture for liver.
The creatinine and BUN are good tests for kidney function but keep i mind that BUN can go over the limit if you are dehydrated. So, make sure to account for that or drink more fluids just before the test.

This should be sticky.
 

tomisonbottom

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Such_Saturation said:
I get the restless legs and caffeine always can cure those. I think somehow the motor neurons become starved for dopamine.

Do you just take coffee for the caffeine or caffeine supplements? And how much to get rid of it? Thanks. :)
 
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tomisonbottom said:
Such_Saturation said:
I get the restless legs and caffeine always can cure those. I think somehow the motor neurons become starved for dopamine.

Do you just take coffee for the caffeine or caffeine supplements? And how much to get rid of it? Thanks. :)

A cup of coffee cures it much better than five times' worth in caffeine powder. The coffee has so many dopaminergic substances. It can be enough to smell it if you can't drink it.
 

tomisonbottom

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Such_Saturation said:
tomisonbottom said:
Such_Saturation said:
I get the restless legs and caffeine always can cure those. I think somehow the motor neurons become starved for dopamine.

Do you just take coffee for the caffeine or caffeine supplements? And how much to get rid of it? Thanks. :)

A cup of coffee cures it much better than five times' worth in caffeine powder. The coffee has so many dopaminergic substances. It can be enough to smell it if you can't drink it.


Wow.....so does it ever make you jittery at bedtime if you're already twitching from RLS and then drink coffee?
 
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tomisonbottom said:
Such_Saturation said:
tomisonbottom said:
Such_Saturation said:
I get the restless legs and caffeine always can cure those. I think somehow the motor neurons become starved for dopamine.

Do you just take coffee for the caffeine or caffeine supplements? And how much to get rid of it? Thanks. :)

A cup of coffee cures it much better than five times' worth in caffeine powder. The coffee has so many dopaminergic substances. It can be enough to smell it if you can't drink it.


Wow.....so does it ever make you jittery at bedtime if you're already twitching from RLS and then drink coffee?

I don't drink it before bed, but it would make it better. Probably if you avoid it during the day that would also fix the problem because it usually comes on when the coffee wears off.
 

khan

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cantstoppeating said:
Strongbad said:
Thank you, Haidut for a very detailed explanation of the possible solutions. Do you think it's okay to consume lots of salt as the anti-prolactin drug substitute while undergoing this liver detoxification phase? It's just more abundant and readily available in my kitchen :D

Cantstoppeating, how did you achieve no-fat diet to flush the fat out? Did you skip bone broth, eggs, organ meat etc.? I've been playing around with nutrient in Cronometer but I could never achieve no-fat. Or maybe you're referring to a very low fat diet, instead...

For my protein I use micellar casein protein powder. For sugar I use OJ, sucrose and fructose powder. I eat liver fried in coconut oil and make sure to drain it before storing in the fridge. I purposefully avoid all fat and I'd estimate I consume maybe 1-2g of saturated fat a day which comes from the liver, which at 3000 calories is insignificant enough to say I'm on a no-fat diet.

Which brand of casein protein powder you are using?
 
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khan said:
cantstoppeating said:
For my protein I use micellar casein protein powder. For sugar I use OJ, sucrose and fructose powder. I eat liver fried in coconut oil and make sure to drain it before storing in the fridge. I purposefully avoid all fat and I'd estimate I consume maybe 1-2g of saturated fat a day which comes from the liver, which at 3000 calories is insignificant enough to say I'm on a no-fat diet.

Which brand of casein protein powder you are using?

I'm in europe so my current supplier is http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/micellar-casein.html.

I would have recommended purebulk as a source, but their protein contains soy lecithen. I'm sure there's a similar bulk supplier that sells regular micellar casein protein, it's a very common supplement.

Combine casein protein with some glycine or gelatin and you'll have a very potent anti-stress protein source without all the digestive/stomach issues from milk.
 

Giraffe

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Such_Saturation said:
haidut said:
Such_Saturation said:
I think Ray Peat is fine with any insulin, it is just the resistant state brought on by free fat and polyunsaturated fat which leads him to define what is an undesirable level of insulin.

So, what we should be doing is asking the doctor to do a blood test for iodine since that is a measure of a person's PUFA status. Low iodine means low PUFA and then insulin levels won't matter much. High iodine and high insulin would imply insulin resistant state brought about by fat oxidation. Right?

If that is a reliable method to establish the saturation of one's fats, then why not, I think. Some good indicators for issues would be darkening of the skin around joints and just the reaction to sugary water for example. However I don't think Ray Peat would ever feel liable for any bad reactions to sugar eaten without potassium, since he has never claimed that to be safe, I don't think.
How do I explain my doctor that low blood iodine is a good sign? Should I tell him that I avoid EFA? ... and complex carbohydates? ... and that I don't use soap? :lol:

Such_, what causes darkening of the skin around joints?
 
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I take it means intolerance to sugar. That test should be iodine saturation, not iodine, right?
 

Giraffe

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Damn, I have more than one symptom that fits... OK, iodine saturation...
 

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