Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid act

[SAFarmer]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

It's pretty clear that babies can use ketones:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6785157
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/901796?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1823 ... t=Abstract

Also, IMO ketosis is not something you are in or out of, it is a matter of degree.

I agree that babies can use ketones, however, that is not the point of debate and was not what was questioned.
Edward stated :
Babies are in deep ketosis at birth and continue to be so until they are weaned off breast milk.

I asked him for scientific references to this "statement of fact."

Just because a species is adapted to something doesn't mean that it is ideal for the species.

I agree .

I don't think the amount of thyroid a average person would take will be catabolic, but mega dosing it might be.

I agree, but the argument is not about megadosing or excessive dosing, merely adequate doses for optimum health ito BMR, temperature and heartrate. At optimum levels thyroid hormone is clearly anabolic. I see the results in my own family with my 3 sons who tended to be underweight before thyroid supplementation.

Ray Peat has written or said somewhere (can't recall exactly where) that thyroid hormone should be seen more as a food, rather than a supplement. When people used to eat the whole animal, they also ate the thyroid of the animals, something the Low Carb people conveniently forget.

 

[Edward]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Babies are in deep ketosis at birth and continue to be so until they are weaned off breast milk. I haven't looked to see how fast that decline out of ketosis happens after babies are weened off breast milk.

Scientific reference for this statement of your's please?

Reference(s):
http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2546

 

[juanitacarlos]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

As to your understanding of thyroid hormone being catabolic, well, you are just wrong. I dont have to prove you wrong. You have to do your own research instead of just believing an opinion giver on an internet forum. Go read McGavack's book, The Thyroid, and you will see what I am talking about. You can also just read the insert paper in a box of T3. If you have read all of Dr Peat's articles, you will also know that thyroid hormone helped him gain weight (from being underweight) and he even grew in length again at the age of over 40 !

Thanks for the compelling argument that thyroid is not catabolic - Dr Peat put on some weight once and the insert paper from a box of T3 says so. I feel so foolish I did not research this to the ends of the earth like you have. Do you see the irony of saying that then questioning other people's credibility or knowledge set?

Do you understand what catabolic means? I'm doubting that you do. To think thyroid hormone does not have catabolic effect on adipose tissue or during oxidative metabolism is misguided.

 

[SAFarmer]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Thanks for the compelling argument that thyroid is not catabolic - Dr Peat put on some weight once and the insert paper from a box of T3 says so. I feel so foolish I did not research this to the ends of the earth like you have. Do you see the irony of saying that then questioning other people's credibility or knowledge set?

Do you understand what catabolic means? I'm doubting that you do. To think thyroid hormone does not have catabolic effect on adipose tissue or during oxidative metabolism is misguided.

OMG ! I think you need more glucose... maybe your brain will work better then !

I never intended or tried to give a complete argument for why I believe thyroid hormone is anabolic in it's overall effect. I told you to go read what the experts have written, ie do your own work and research, and read The Thyroid by McGavack and other work.

And again, read properly, thyroid hormone can be catabolic in excess, but to state that thyroid hormone is catabolic to adipose tissue is to believe you can never get fat (or store energy as fat) by having thyroid hormone, which is a ridiculous argument.

Maybe it's you that don't understand what catabolism means in nutrition?

 

[juanitacarlos]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Thanks for the compelling argument that thyroid is not catabolic - Dr Peat put on some weight once and the insert paper from a box of T3 says so. I feel so foolish I did not research this to the ends of the earth like you have. Do you see the irony of saying that then questioning other people's credibility or knowledge set?

Do you understand what catabolic means? I'm doubting that you do. To think thyroid hormone does not have catabolic effect on adipose tissue or during oxidative metabolism is misguided.

OMG ! I think you need more glucose... maybe your brain will work better then !

I never intended or tried to give a complete argument for why I believe thyroid hormone is anabolic in it's overall effect. I told you to go read what the experts have written, ie do your own work and research, and read The Thyroid by McGavack and other work.

And again, read properly, thyroid hormone can be catabolic in excess, but to state that thyroid hormone is catabolic to adipose tissue is to believe you can never get fat (or store energy as fat) by having thyroid hormone, which is a ridiculous argument.

Maybe it's you that don't understand what catabolism means in nutrition?

Ok, too easy. I actually apologise for even responding to you with sarcasm. I'm hear to share, to learn, to support, and not let my ego get into sucked into a pointless argument to see who's the most 'right'. All the best!

 

[SAFarmer]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Ok, too easy. I actually apologise for even responding to you with sarcasm. I'm hear to share, to learn, to support, and not let my ego get into sucked into a pointless argument to see who's the most 'right'. All the best!

Thanks for the apology. Not needed though and no offense taken. I have a thick skin and actually likes a good debate. :) As long as I can learn something in the end. My appologies as well if I sounded too direct and confrontational. I am just interested in the truth, nothing else.

 

[Edward]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Thyroid hormone being catabolic: I think there is some confusion as to what anabolic and catabolic means, a catabolic hormone can appear to be anabolic and vice versa.

To simplify, when mitochondrial respiration is low due to insufficient thyroid, anabolic hormones cannot act, anabolism requires energy (and catabolism releases energy), when you increase respiration (for instance taking T3) anabolic hormones can then act giving the appearance that thyroid is anabolic.

When we are talking about anabolic and catabolic processes this does not mean perception, we are talking on the molecular level, what is actually physically going on, not how thinks look.

As far as sugar. I think there are some things being over simplified. Fructose is not always fructose as in fruit sugar. It becomes important to know the different types of fructose because they behave differently (and the molecular structure is different), especially in papers, and this is the case for other sugars as well. For example: β-D-fructopyranose, α-D-fructopyranose, β-D-fructofuranose, α-D-fructofuranose, keto-D-Fructose, fructose 1,6-bisphosphate, fructose 2,6-diphosphate, and also the isomers of fructose were appropriate.

Details like this are not always in the abstract and require you to have access to the paper. I can't give out every full paper I don't have the time but usually if you are not at a school, a public library has extensive access to full text databases.

As far as my reputation and/or competence: there is much too much talk about that and not enough talk about the actual subject. As always, if you want to know my background you can view it from the relevant part of the forum: http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1573

I'm still looking through this thread and will get some responses out if I missed anything or where appropriate.

 

[SAFarmer]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Babies are in deep ketosis at birth and continue to be so until they are weaned off breast milk. I haven't looked to see how fast that decline out of ketosis happens after babies are weened off breast milk.

Scientific reference for this statement of your's please?

Reference(s):
http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2546

This does not prove your statement Edward. All those studies just prove, that, yes , babies can produce ketones (not debated) and will die very quickly if they can't, because they don't have the ability yet to store huge amounts of glucose in the liver yet.

Also, it just proves that mothers have to give milk to their babies regularly to keep them out of ketosis if they want them to develop optimally.

As to being "in deep ketosis" as a natural state when adequatly fed, there is no proof of that.
Also no study there or proof of staying in "that" condition till they are weened off breast milk.

 

[SAFarmer]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Thyroid hormone being catabolic: I think there is some confusion as to what anabolic and catabolic means, a catabolic hormone can appear to be anabolic and vice versa.

To simplify, when mitochondrial respiration is low due to insufficient thyroid, anabolic hormones cannot act, anabolism requires energy (and catabolism releases energy), when you increase respiration (for instance taking T3) anabolic hormones can then act giving the appearance that thyroid is anabolic.

When we are talking about anabolic and catabolic processes this does not mean perception, we are talking on the molecular level, what is actually physically going on, not how thinks look.

Edward, you are trying to misdirect the issue at hand. The point was that you said thyroid hormone is catabolic. Now suddenly you imply that is not what you said ?

Your comments above reminds me of what Ray Peat has written in one of his articles: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hy ... dism.shtml

Although physicists can believe in things which are simultaneously both particles and not particles, I think biology (and medicine, as far as it is biologically based) should occupy a world in which things are not simultaneously themselves and their opposites.

So again, please explain your logic, prefarably by quoting scientific references, how, if thyroid hormone acts by increasing energy and making anabolic processes possible, it can be both anabolic and catabolic, or worse, as you suggest, only catabolic ?

 

[SAFarmer]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

@andvanwyk,

Yes. These things can be complex I must admit myself and I'm not completely satisfied in my exploration and research into these topics. I have some ideas but I'm looking for evidence to tie things together because I tend to pay attention to exceptions rather than rules (because rules can make you dogmatic and cause you to miss details that could make a very big difference in an individual) I think that the idea that the ketogenic diet is somehow stressful is flawed.

I think your "idea" is flawed, but will look at any "evidence" you can provide to the contrary, because that will ofcourse disprove Dr Ray Peat, and you will then be the first person to do so !

I am also just curious. Do you raise your child on a ketogenic diet?

 

[jaguar43]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

It's pretty clear that babies can use ketones:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6785157
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/901796?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1823 ... t=Abstract

Also, IMO ketosis is not something you are in or out of, it is a matter of degree.

Meat has vitamin c.

Just because a species is adapted to something doesn't mean that it is ideal for the species.

I don't think the amount of thyroid a average person would take will be catabolic, but mega dosing it might be.

The adrenal glands yes have vitamin C

But meat eating animals still can make their own vitamin C. An excess would possibly mean more towards a evolutionary state.

Never said babies couldn't be in ketosis state.

 

[jaguar43]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Babies are in deep ketosis at birth and continue to be so until they are weaned off breast milk. I haven't looked to see how fast that decline out of ketosis happens after babies are weened off breast milk.

Scientific reference for this statement of your's please?

Reference(s):
http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2546

and...doesn't make it optimal.

 

[Wilfrid]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Thyroid hormone being catabolic: I think there is some confusion as to what anabolic and catabolic means, a catabolic hormone can appear to be anabolic and vice versa.

To simplify, when mitochondrial respiration is low due to insufficient thyroid, anabolic hormones cannot act, anabolism requires energy (and catabolism releases energy), when you increase respiration (for instance taking T3) anabolic hormones can then act giving the appearance that thyroid is anabolic.

When we are talking about anabolic and catabolic processes this does not mean perception, we are talking on the molecular level, what is actually physically going on, not how thinks look.

Edward, you are trying to misdirect the issue at hand. The point was that you said thyroid hormone is catabolic. Now suddenly you imply that is not what you said ?

Your comments above reminds me of what Ray Peat has written in one of his articles: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hy ... dism.shtml

Although physicists can believe in things which are simultaneously both particles and not particles, I think biology (and medicine, as far as it is biologically based) should occupy a world in which things are not simultaneously themselves and their opposites.

So again, please explain your logic, prefarably by quoting scientific references, how, if thyroid hormone acts by increasing energy and making anabolic processes possible, it can be both anabolic and catabolic, or worse, as you suggest, only catabolic ?

You seems to like scientific references and I know that Dr. Peat really likes "old school" scientific references so why don't starting with this one ?
By the way, if you want the full text you will probably have to pay for it but it worth it.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... xcerpt.pdf

 

[SAFarmer]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

You seems to like scientific references and I know that Dr. Peat really likes "old school" scientific references so why don't starting with this one ?
By the way, if you want the full text you will probably have to pay for it but it worth it.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... xcerpt.pdf

You must read the thread properly before just jumping in. I already read "the Thyroid" by McGavack and recommended by Ray Peat. I actually paid a lot of money for that book. Did you pay for your article ? Did you actually read the whole article ? I doubt it.

Go read McGavack, then come back to me and argue if you still want to. In there is about 100 pages of "old school" scientific references ...

 

[j.]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Many of these papers that you have to pay for you can get from pirate sites. gen.lib.rus.ec

 

[Wilfrid]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

You seems to like scientific references and I know that Dr. Peat really likes "old school" scientific references so why don't starting with this one ?
By the way, if you want the full text you will probably have to pay for it but it worth it.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... xcerpt.pdf

You must read the thread properly before just jumping in. I already read "the Thyroid" by McGavack and recommended by Ray Peat. I actually paid a lot of money for that book. Did you pay for your article ? Did you actually read the whole article ? I doubt it.

Go read McGavack, then come back to me and argue if you still want to. In there is about 100 pages of "old school" scientific references ...

First, I think that you must chill out and take a deep breath (and also may be a small bite of sugar.)
To answer your first question, yes. I paid for the article through the Elsevier website.
To your 2nd question, go and check my previous post.( I paid mine through marelibri.com from the UK to France at reasonable price.)

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1517
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1630

And I also bought two others thyroid book in french and can give you the references of the book if you want to. But I did not find any reference like the one I posted above...may be you do?
Now, I think that we are, all here, agree that you did your homework, but pay for the study and then tell me why it's not valid.
Or go to the website that j. just provided above, try to get the article through it and let's have a good debate about it because clearly you didn't read the article.
But you can be sure that if I have any doubt about thyroid in the future I certainly will come back to you (just after RP. )

 

[Wilfrid]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Just because someone is exposing a different view on thyroid than Ray's, despite his long experience on it, does not necessarily mean he is wrong.
Take the vitamin E for example ( for which he has great interest), we can read everywhere that the supplementation is safe as long as the vitamin is "natural" and as pure as possible.
Yet, there is at least one exception to that.
In one study ( in vivo and for young women) there were a lowering of serum thyroid hormone levels and an increase of fasting triglyceride....I really doubt that you can find this study even if you do any accurate "Google search"...but you can find it on the bottom of the page 169 in the book " Nutritional biochemistry and metabolism" 2nd edition by Maria C. Linder ( Elsevier publishing).
Does it makes me an expert on vitamin E despite having reading the book? Of course not, but I'm just curious and want to make, as far as possible, my opinion with the most information on hand....
By the way and to tell the truth I have no pb with "old school" medical reference studies which I think are, in most case, usually more accurate.
But if you can re direct me on any pages of the McGavack book where you can find the link I made above ( and eventually why it's not valid) that will be very helpful.
But,hey, no beef here...

 

[SAFarmer]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Many of these papers that you have to pay for you can get from pirate sites. gen.lib.rus.ec

thanks J !

 

[SAFarmer]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

And I also bought two others thyroid book in french and can give you the references of the book if you want to. But I did not find any reference like the one I posted above...may be you do?
Now, I think that we are, all here, agree that you did your homework, but pay for the study and then tell me why it's not valid.
Or go to the website that j. just provided above, try to get the article through it and let's have a good debate about it because clearly you didn't read the article.
But you can be sure that if I have any doubt about thyroid in the future I certainly will come back to you (just after RP. )

Wilfred,

I did not have any beef with you either, but why did you come up in defence of Edward. Is he not man enough to show his own references for his views ? Sure, you can have the same view that thyroid hormone is catabolic (do you ?) but first let Edward man up for himself.

Just posting a link to a study is meaningless without interpretation. What is your point? Your view? Do you believe thyroid hormone at correct doses or production level is catabolic or anabolic ? Do you think the study prove your view and how ? Then we can really start a debate if still needed. Otherwise it's pointless going back and forth without specifics.

The study (done on rat tissues) you provided the link to says the following:

In the mitochondria of all tissues tested, with
the exception of brain, hyperthyroidism causes an increase of
the activity of D-IDH whereas the T-IDH decreases. In hypothyroidism
the effects are oppositel

the DPN
system for the catabolic purpose and via the TPN system for the
anabolic one.


So again, nothing surprising here. And also there is a difference between "catabolic processes) vs catabolic effects overall. In other words, just because higher levels of thyroid hormone induces an increase in enzyme levels that cause catabolic "processes" does not mean that the overall effect on the tissues, organs or body cannot be anabolic. Afterall, thyroid hormone increases the energy production of the system significantly, leading to an anabolic effect overall , provided the hormone levels is not in excess. Digesting food is a catabolic process as well, but you would not suggest that eating food has a catabolic overall effect would you ?

Human cretinism is a very good example, where if treated with thyroid those people grow again at sometimes fast rates if treated early enough.

This looks like an interesting study but dont have access:
http://endo.endojournals.org/content/44/5/449
Excerpt

It is customary to regard the thyroid hormone as a stimulator of catabolism, in particular of protein catabolism. However, the impaired growth of human cretins, of thyroidectomized rats (Evans, Simpson, and Pencharz 1939) and goats (Reineke, and Turner 1941) as well as the resumption of growth resulting from thyroid medication indicate that the influence of thyroid hormone on metabolic processes is more complex. Growth is, of necessity, associated with a prevalence of anabolic processes, especially of proteins. The experiments reported in this paper were undertaken in order to determine, (a) whether thyroxine induces nitrogen retention (protein anabolism), and (b) if so, under what conditions anabolic or catabolic effects would predominate.

 

[jaa]

Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

Just read the following post by carbsane and thought it would be of interest here:

http://carbsanity.blogspot.ca/2013/10/p ... rient.html