Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid act

Discussion in 'Articles & Scientific Studies' started by Edward, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. Edward

    Edward Member

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    Recently, we described a two-pool model for 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine uptake and metabolism in the isolated perfused rat liver. Here, we applied this model to investigate transmembrane thyroxine (T4) transport and its possible ATP dependence in vivo. These studies are performed in perfused rat livers during perfusion with or without fructose in the medium, as it has been shown that intracellular ATP is decreased after fructose loading. Furthermore, we studied serum T4 tracer disappearance curves in four human subjects before and after intravenous fructose loading. In the perfused rat liver, we found a decrease in liver ATP concentration and a decrease in medium T4 disappearance and T4 uptake in the liver pool after fructose. Furthermore, it was shown that, when corrected for differences in the medium free hormone concentration, only transport to the metabolizing liver pool was decreased after fructose perfusion, whereas uptake in the nonmetabolizing pool was unaffected. Disposal, corrected for differences in transport into the metabolizing pool, was also not affected after fructose. In the human studies, intravenous fructose administration induced a rise in serum lactic acid and uric acid, indicating a decrease in liver ATP. This was observed concomitant with a decrease in serum tracer T4 disappearance during the first 3 h after fructose administration. These results suggest ATP dependence of transport of iodothyronines into the liver in vivo and show that, in the rat liver and in humans, uptake of T4 may be regulated by intracellular energy stores; in this way the tissue uptake process may affect intracellular metabolism and bioavailability of thyroid hormone.

    De Jong, M., Docter, R., Bernard, B. F., Van Der Heijden, J. T., Van Toor, H., Krenning, E. P., & Hennemann, G. (1994). T4 uptake into the perfused rat liver and liver T4 uptake in humans are inhibited by fructose. American Journal of Physiology, 266, E768–E775.

    Four groups of 6 rats were given ad libitum diets with over 60% of the energy as sucrose, fructose or glucose for 10 weeks, and were compared to animals given chow. Assessment of thyroid activity was made using metabolic rate, thyroid 123I uptake, and serum thyroid fraction measurement before, after 5 and 10 weeks on the diet, and 6 weeks after return to a control diet. The major effects were that the thyroid 123I uptake was significantly less than control in the rats after 10 weeks on a high carbohydrate diet. Only the animals on the fructose diet showed any consistent and significant falls in serum T3 and FT3, and T4. These findings suggest that the type of dietary carbohydrate may affect thyroid function in rats.

    Macdonald, I. (1989). Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid activity in the rat. Annals of nutrition metabolism, 33, 15–21.

    Notes:

    There is a good chapter in Wolfgang Lutz's book "Life without Bread" called "Carbohydrates and Hormones" where Dr. Lutz describes different catabolic and anabolic effects of dietary components and in an earlier chapter ATP production.

    The mechanisms which were based on German experiments done on carbohydrate metabolism on warm blooded animals were somewhat neater and more clear than some of the other mechanisms that have been described.

    Thyroid hormone regulates fatty acid metabolism, this has been demonstrated in hyperthyroid studies where fatty acids are oxidized at an accelerated rate.
     
  2. andvanwyk

    andvanwyk Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    What are your interpretations on these studies in laymen's terms? Fructose is the worst of the carbohydrates for thyroid metabolism or I am I misinterpreting?

    Thanks
    Andreas
     
  3. jaa

    jaa Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    Was it just pure fructose being administered, or was it paired with glucose?
     
  4. OP
    Edward

    Edward Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    @andvanwyk, @jaa,

    Fructose can act like T3 and fructose contains a ketone group hence the lower thyroid levels. Ketones in general negate the need for thyroid hormone and it seems that ketones can indeed key-in-hole thyroid receptors. That means essentially the two are interchangeable to some extent. And when we consider what ketones do that makes sense. In the cerebellum there is a high concentration of T3 receptors. In experiments with rats when the cerebellum is deprived of T3 the brain develops abnormally but when they genetically delete the receptors the brain develops normally. Ketones it seems plug T3 receptors. So it makes sense that when you have an efficient fuel source that thyroid levels would decrease. If we think about what ATP is and if we think cells are intelligent then lowered ATP levels make sense when an efficient fuel source is provided to the cells. More ATP up to a point is produced during stress to keep the cells functioning properly since fructose and ketones would lower metabolic stress as well as saturated fats, we are talking on the cellular level here, it would make sense that ATP levels would decline.

    Also remember that thyroid is a catabolic hormone.
     
  5. jaa

    jaa Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    Interesting. Thanks for that informative explanation.
     
  6. andvanwyk

    andvanwyk Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the explanation. I guess there must be something to ketogenic diet after all (at least on some level). There are quite a few people I know who are thriving on completely carbohydrate free diets and I've always wondered how they do it.
     
  7. OP
    Edward

    Edward Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    @andvanwyk,

    Yes. These things can be complex I must admit myself and I'm not completely satisfied in my exploration and research into these topics. I have some ideas but I'm looking for evidence to tie things together because I tend to pay attention to exceptions rather than rules (because rules can make you dogmatic and cause you to miss details that could make a very big difference in an individual) I think that the idea that the ketogenic diet is somehow stressful is flawed. Babies are in deep ketosis at birth and continue to be so until they are weaned off breast milk. I haven't looked to see how fast that decline out of ketosis happens after babies are weened off breast milk. With my daughter, we feed her only breast milk and butter. When we started introducing new things to her she always preferred the butter over fruit and starch (actually she would eat the butter and play with the fruit and starch). I've always been a big butter eater, even growing up I always favored the fatty cuts of meat, milk, and butter. My daughter has NEVER been sick despite being in a public day care and has never reacted or run a fever after immunization. I tend to pay attention to things like that because I think that a good diet means you are not only healthful but resistant to stress.

    Fructose literature is quite bipolar. And for myself although I eat sucrose and some fruit I'm quite on the fence about it. I tend to always remember that there are 7.13 billion people on the earth and that people eat varied diets and maintain satisfactory health. And that is something we can't forget. We must always keep things like that in mind when we are looking at applying theories of nutrition.

    Discussion is a forum for learning. Too many people get tweaked when evidence is presented against an idea and then they respond with piss poor overly defensive arguments. They think you are attacking them instead of saying oh look this is something that challenges my beliefs let me take a closer look and re-examine my system or modify it. Somebody can be right (very right) about things and at the same time dead wrong about other things, and it's important to remember that.

    So if you notice that your friend(s) is/are doing well on a low carbohydrate diet it means that whatever paradigm is opposed to that needs to examine more carefully.

    Although Price's work is not without it's flaws I do find it curious that refined carbohydrates and sucrose are associated with some of the diseases of affluence. It does not mean they are causative factors, rather I look at it from the standpoint that a good diet is one that not only supplies good stable energy put also protects from stress. When white men encroached on the "traditionals" diet there were a lot of factors at play besides diet, there were complete lifestyle changes, undoubtedly stressful, so I look a good diet as a diet that would protect from that. If sucrose or fructose or carbohydrate is protective should it not protect from those things? Or is it that in a stressful context those things become problematic? Whatever the case may be it is obvious that the issue is complex and not completely straightforward. If a native eats a traditional diet and adds "protective" sugars then it stands to reason that that those individuals should be more resistant to stress. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. I have my own ideas about that but no time to discuss here. And it is the reason why I disagree so strongly with Dr. Peat's idea that aging is a symptom of adaptation and why I believe aging is a failure to adapt. There are many things that Dr. Peat is nail-on-the-head right about and there are other things were he is just flat out wrong about. But for me I'm not looking for a guru to write me a bible I'm looking for truth, so even though I disagree with Dr. Peat on issues, it DOES NOT take away from the value of his work. Not at all. Rather we should all look at ourselves as contributors and believe that we have the ability to also reason logically and come to our own understandings. So for me it is not about who is right or wrong, because that takes away from the value of contribution (and reduces the value of individual individuals), but it is about working in such a way that truth can be deduced.
     
  8. jyb

    jyb Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    @Edward: Where do you disagree about a ketogenic diet being stressful - do you go as far as saying that promoting the oxidative metabolism of glucose is not always optimal? From what I know, the ketones derived from the fats you mentioned would feed well the brain, heart and liver, but what about the rest? It's interesting that babies are ketogenic for so long, although by itself it's not inconsistent with Dr. Peat's ideas because at that age they can later recover from any stress induced damage (should any occur).
     
  9. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    Edward, what is the basis for your statement that thyroid is a catabolic hormone?
    Further, this is in direct conflict with Ray Peat's idea of it being anabolic.

    While I agree with you that one should be able to debate, "reinventing the wheel" should not form part of such a debate, just for the sake of being able to debate. You are of course very welcome to disagree with the things Ray Peat says, but at least then give me a background of where you are coming from and your experience or knowledge of physiology so that I can judge your competence.
     
  10. Matt1951

    Matt1951 Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    Edward,
    Thank-you for this very informative post.
     
  11. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    I think Edward is misinforming about thyroid. Thyroid hormone is anabolic, NOT catabolic when produced adequately in the body or supplemented at the right dosage.

    Edward also recommend or favour cigarettes, a known carcinogen.
     
  12. Gabriel

    Gabriel Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    In excess, thyroid hormone definitely is catabolic, reducing both fat and lean mass. The question is where the treshold lies.
     
  13. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    In "excess", of course, but anything in excess is harmfull. Edward did not include the words "in excess" ... He states, as a matter of fact , that thyroid is catabolic. That is not true in most instances.
     
  14. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    Scientific reference for this statement of your's please ?

    I agree wholeheartedly. You wont mind giving "evidence" for your statements then, would you ?

    Just saying you disagree with Dr Peat, without explaining your viewpoint and giving evidence by citing your own or others research, is not helping your credibility very much, if you want to be taken seriously, that is.

    Dr Ray Peat has over 45 years of research experience in his field.
    You have ,... how much ?
     
  15. j.

    j. Guest

    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    Attacking the argument is probably better than the person.
     
  16. juanitacarlos

    juanitacarlos Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    I agree with j. Edward has stated his opinion. He did not ask anyone to believe him blindly. If he is wrong, prove it? My understanding is that thyroid hormone is catabolic. I'm thinking of T3's role in oxidative metabolism. But hey, happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

    I'm pretty sure Ray Peat has no credibility to many medical/scientific experts with plenty of years of research and/or practice. Does that mean we should disregard him? It's elitist to demand someone meet some arbitrary level of qualification otherwise they do not have credibility. Crazy stuff.
     
  17. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid


    I think the isolated perfused rat liver is probably is not a good test model.

    The second study showed that rt3 was low as well possibly meaning that total t3 may be high.

    I don't think Dr Lutz really understands nutrition, he states that a high carbohydrate diet will increase insulin. Different amino acids will also increase insulin as well. He believes that one should increase their growth factor (proliferation) which is a good way to increase your chances of cancer.
     
  18. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid


    I think your argument is invalid for many reasons. You ignore fundamental evolutionary aspects that show sugars importance in development. Humans no longer can produce vitamin C ,why is that ? Because we evolved in the jungle with plenty of fruits high in vitamin C. To state that "traditionally diets" are what the species thrive on is incorrect.


    With all respect to Weston a Price, I think that the environment play a key role in the health of the indigenous people. Most of the groups he wrote about lived in high altitude locations that were never known to be beneficial by Weston a Price. Not all of the people in his book were healthy either, there were some obese men and women in the pictures. All he really did was look at facial features and teeth development. Other than that it doesn't really prove problems with sugars and modern diets. How many people have good teeth and facial development in modern society. Many

    Ray Peat believes that the inability to oxidate glucose is a major factor in aging. To deny this is to deny research and science completely. You stated some neo-darwinism ideology that the failure to adapt is the problem with aging. That goes to shows that you don't understand Ray Peats work.

    You need to provide links for your statements about the babies in ketosis. Just because your baby chooses butter over fruit doesn't really mean a whole lot. Your baby possibly adapted to ketosis but that doesn't mean its optimal.


    You really haven't gave any evidence that fructose, sucrose and glucose are problems. You just post some studies from pubmed and cite Wolfgang Lutz and stated your opinion. Thats really it.
     
  19. SAFarmer

    SAFarmer Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    Well, I have to disagree with you ;)
    This is what makes life so interesting. We read the same things and come to different conclusions. Everyone has a different background and fundamental knowledge from which to draw.

    When someone uses the phrase "I disagree so strongly with dr Peat ", I sit up and notice.
    I ask myself, who is this person? what is his background, his knowledge? I don't just accept his opinion. Talk is cheap. Everyone can have an opinion. That means nothing. I have searched the internet extensively for any references to people with credibility who disagrees with Dr Ray Peat's views. I couldn't really find anyone that was able to make a credibile argument against him. Dr Ray Peat has done research and read about his interests for over 45 years ! Anyone that takes him on should better know what they are talking about .

    I can say I dont agree with Tiger Woods' putting stroke, ... but no-one will listen to me because I have NO standing. It is just the way the world works. In matters of science it's a bit different, but you still have to give reference, or proof, and even then people will only take notice immediately if you have credibility.

    As to your understanding of thyroid hormone being catabolic, well, you are just wrong. I dont have to prove you wrong. You have to do your own research instead of just believing an opinion giver on an internet forum. Go read McGavack's book, The Thyroid, and you will see what I am talking about. You can also just read the insert paper in a box of T3. If you have read all of Dr Peat's articles, you will also know that thyroid hormone helped him gain weight (from being underweight) and he even grew in length again at the age of over 40 !
     
  20. jb4566

    jb4566 Member

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    Re: Some effects of various dietary carbohydrates on thyroid

    It's pretty clear that babies can use ketones:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6785157
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/901796?dopt=Abstract
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1823 ... t=Abstract

    Also, IMO ketosis is not something you are in or out of, it is a matter of degree.

    Meat has vitamin c.

    Just because a species is adapted to something doesn't mean that it is ideal for the species.

    I don't think the amount of thyroid a average person would take will be catabolic, but mega dosing it might be.
     
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