Beyond McMindfulness & Gaslighting

[Integra]

@Integra forget about doing a technique to yourself!
Understand with your head, and then let the body process the knowledge.

I just read that article you posted earlier, thank you! I understand a bit better now. I'm trying to learn how to convert knowledge and understanding into an embodied experience. I used to think that tracking my sensations was a good way to be in my body, but it is only good as a method of learning the emotional vocabulary of the body. After that, rather than feeling (inhabiting) the anger, you might go: "A, B, C, D, Anger, E, F, G" and it can become another sophisticated way of avoiding feeling your feelings.

I thought that the suggestion to self-touch and move parts of the body to enable all of you to enter a feeling is brilliant. I realized that I've been doing some of that spontaneously. So the neck area corresponds to moving emotions "into the face", the lower legs to pull them beneath the diaphragm. It's gotten way better now, but I remember as a teenager, I really liked wearing tight jeans and shirts with tight sleeves because it helped me "know where my arms and legs are." How sad is that. Now it's better, but a funny thing, I still can't feel my upper arms and the space between knees and ankles, just like the article mentioned. Haha!

And the fact that we can not only sense & regulate, but also generate our own emotions is something that I completely forgot. My only sources of "generation" were narcissistic, sort of demonic, but I remember how it felt like to "pull energy out of the ground." People used a lot of sun-related imagery to describe me back at my worst, most narcissistic days. If only they knew the dark places that sunshine stemmed from...

 

[Xisca]

Just wanted to precise more thought about this very rich port...

In dealing with this every day shittiness, we are tempted to dissociate from our bodies. That dissociation ultimately ends in injury of one part or another.

We do not dissociate from our bodies, except in very extreme cases.
This is a short-cut for something more complex: 2 things become dissociated, but not necessarily us from the body.
It can be in the senses like hearing or seesing.
You see this in persons who have regular car accidents with cars from the same side: they dissociate the sight in this direction when something triggers the 1st past event.
Personnaly, I hear all animals making noises around, but I am in a surprise almost everytime I see a human showing up, as I did not hear anybody come! I considere it as a sign of dissociation when I hear someone, my hear shuts.
When you are in a dreamy state about your last super good holidays, this is a dissociation from what you do at the moment. Same when you drive home and have not seen anything around and you realize you are almost there.
When you scratch your skin around a mosquito bite and feel it less during a moment, you use it to dissociate the bite from your brain and connect with the stimulated skin aside!
Just to let you know how great the possibilities of dissociation are!
This comes from the vago dorsal nerve, and also, deep bliss comes from it... deep states of meditation...

Mindfulness does not involve dissociation, not if done right. When we sit and we observe our breath, we learn a technique for regaining awareness when lost in thought, for bringing our attention back to the body.

If you mean it does not involve to separate from body sensations, yes. All those techniques involving body sensations are bringing there what was a missing part for a long time in the west.

I am becoming increasingly disillusioned with the concept of the "highly sensitive person"

If you mean that you do not believe anymore this is a permanent characteristic of a person, I could not agree more!
I thought I was like this until i learned about perinatal trauma, which makes it seem part of the personality, as it has been there forever.
But it has a cause.
It can be changed.
With help and understanding of others, better.
The vago dorsal of dissociation is reintegrated thanks to the vago ventral of CONNEXION. What a pity that people have to heal themselves with the help of their pets, which means humans are not available to behave the proper way with them!!!
A victim is a victim but can heal.
But we have to do the same as for a broken bone or a woulnd: do not knock on it irreverently.

I reckon that sensibilities are so different from person to person, that it is more easy for everybody to not knock on a visible plaster...

 

[Xisca]

sensitivity ... gateway to developing narcissism. As a result, I have been extremely functional and 'objectively' successful by society's standards.

and they say sensitive persons develop codependence to narcs.... I had to google to find that narcs can also be cured, poor them! We all have some of it I think!
I have done nice things in my life, but never been an attractive person to others like a narcissist.
But I do notice I replace fluent conversations by an alternate focus on you and then focus on me... So I think that narcissism is a desire for contact that cannot be met properly, but that the person misses and desire dearly, profondly, vividly, and much more really than what is supposed.

I thought that the suggestion to self-touch and move parts of the body to enable all of you to enter a feeling is brilliant.

Ho, the article from Raja Selvam, yes it is brilliant.
There are 3 articles in the blog. The interview is very long.

I really liked wearing tight jeans and shirts with tight sleeves because it helped me "know where my arms and legs are."

This tip is used with dogs: put a tight t-shirt to let them be less anxious!

I think you could beneficiate from the Levine's book that comes with a cd, because there are a lot of exercises about welcoming back the parts of the body.

People used a lot of sun-related imagery to describe me back at my worst, most narcissistic days.

That you were shining?

 

[Integra]

I think that narcissism is a desire for contact that cannot be met properly

As a side-symptom, yes. I understand it as a development of a false self-image that replaces your natural biological drives for desire and self-actualization. And then, because the narcissist is so out of touch with reality, their place in it, and who they really are, it makes it that much more urgent to be "seen" by others, to feel "true connection" with others. I remember having that clear need at the time. Still do, but it's no longer a desperate craving.

and they say sensitive persons develop codependence to narcs....

I grew to think that both parts are "equally bad" in that dynamic. The narc was once a codependent child enmeshed with a loving/abusive parent. They're really two sides of the same coin--narcissism and codependent types.

That you were shining?

Oh yes. Compliments were my bread and water. People could be divided into those who admire me, and those who are a threat. That was it, that was the extent I cared about others (with few exceptions, of course. I was never a complete monster). But I sought admiration at all costs. And I got it as my mask was praised thoroughly and frequently. "You're like the sun," "shiny personality," "brimming with life," "you're so ALIVE," etc. But it was not the type of satisfaction I get now when someone validates me, which has a calming effect and I no longer need further validation.

I needed hose compliments to maintain life, because if there's nobody to admire me, nothing to achieve, no places to go, I didn't exist. So of course I made myself worthy of those compliments, you could really say I was "charismatic as the sun." There were some people who saw through me though, as I realize now, and they would quickly (and smartly) impose a distance. I saw those people as "boring" haha--which is to say, as long I saw there was nothing "to leech" from them psychologically, I would lose interest in them!

 

[Xisca]

I remember saying to my boyfriend when he said that he admired me, that I did not want this AT ALL and that he should stop, and he said that I could not controle what he would do... ok be still I felt I did not want this. Maybe because the pendulum indicates that there is deception linked to admiration!

I am also sensitive to admiring somebody, but in the way I like looking at a hadsome person, the esthetic is pleasant, like a nice sunset or flower etc, but I had a feeling it was misguiding and not the right way for contact.

The word I am sensitive to is THANK YOU. The real one that creates tenderness in the heart and at a place where there is equality.

As a side-symptom, yes.

This is exactly what makes me think this is NOT a side symptom!
They talk about "limits" so often! As a place you defend so that people do not get in. But our limits are not only boundaries as of a country, they are also the place of contact.

On one side, I do not feel that much true connection in the ways people connect habitually, and it can be me who is not good at it.
But when I connect in the way that I considere to be true connection, people REALLY feel a difference. I mean that they told it to me, or asked me what or how I was doing this. What helped me to do this more was helping with Somatic Experiencing, when we would end with a strong sense of connection, an equal shine in the eyes with the possibility to look at each other, and have a real contact at our so called limits level.

That's how came to me the image of the foam making bubbles. We are like bubbles of foam. We are shapes of the same thing, but different shapes anyway, and have to be in contact with that same quality of softness. And this contact does not come from admiration, it is not a magnet either. Ocytocine has probably a big role at scientific level, but we do not need to know to sense it!
It is also probably the type of contact cells have, wether they have or not a membrane...

 

[ReSTART]

Connection, people want to have friends, connect and feel accepted.
But it makes you vulnerable and that hurts.

So Lonely I Could Die: Social Isolation Greater Public Health Threat Than Obesity

 

[Barliman]

Just wanted to precise more thought about this very rich port...
We do not dissociate from our bodies, except in very extreme cases.
This is a short-cut for something more complex: 2 things become dissociated, but not necessarily us from the body.
It can be in the senses like hearing or seesing.
You see this in persons who have regular car accidents with cars from the same side: they dissociate the sight in this direction when something triggers the 1st past event.
Personnaly, I hear all animals making noises around, but I am in a surprise almost everytime I see a human showing up, as I did not hear anybody come! I considere it as a sign of dissociation when I hear someone, my hear shuts.
When you are in a dreamy state about your last super good holidays, this is a dissociation from what you do at the moment. Same when you drive home and have not seen anything around and you realize you are almost there.
When you scratch your skin around a mosquito bite and feel it less during a moment, you use it to dissociate the bite from your brain and connect with the stimulated skin aside!
Just to let you know how great the possibilities of dissociation are!
This comes from the vago dorsal nerve, and also, deep bliss comes from it... deep states of meditation...

If you mean it does not involve to separate from body sensations, yes. All those techniques involving body sensations are bringing there what was a missing part for a long time in the west.

If you mean that you do not believe anymore this is a permanent characteristic of a person, I could not agree more!
I thought I was like this until i learned about perinatal trauma, which makes it seem part of the personality, as it has been there forever.
But it has a cause.
It can be changed.
With help and understanding of others, better.
The vago dorsal of dissociation is reintegrated thanks to the vago ventral of CONNEXION. What a pity that people have to heal themselves with the help of their pets, which means humans are not available to behave the proper way with them!!!
A victim is a victim but can heal.
But we have to do the same as for a broken bone or a woulnd: do not knock on it irreverently.

I reckon that sensibilities are so different from person to person, that it is more easy for everybody to not knock on a visible plaster...

Are you familiar with the work of Dr Stephen Porges- originator of the Polyvagal Theory? If not you might like his website- especially this article:
For Body Therapists - English
The article "For Body Therapists" nails a lot of useful stuff.

He has been hugely influential in trauma therapy.

 

[Barliman]

Hi @Barliman !
Yes that is right, sensitivity comes from trauma, especially early, and not only developmental, also shock trauma.
I think what @Integra pointed at, is the lack of good help that comes from un-understanding people, when they say "you should....". People can evolve only from where they are, and it is very well understood when people have a broken leg etc, and not when they are sensitive in a more invisible part of themselves.

How can we be so little informed that bully still exist? It comes from not knowing the hurt done, and being afraid of a non understood way of being and behaving in life. It is very easy to help sensitive persons, but it should be a global social task. Or else some people go out of track so much that it becomes dangerous for the whole society.

In terms of PTSD, it seems clear that Adverse Childhood Events greatly increase the risk of an adverse outcome form any given trauma. If you have gown up in a more stable environment and learned more adaptive patterns of self regulation the risks from trauma experienced in adulthood are much lower. The levels of social disorder in poor neighbourhoods, in drug dependent parents and in parents who have come home traumatised from military experience are setting us up for much worse outcomes in the next generation.

I do think that we are getting better at dealing with bullying though.

 

[Xisca]

Thanks @Barliman
I have not read a lot from Porges but I am familiar with the work and theory through learning somatic experiencing from Peter Levine.

I think we cannot separate the origine of stress at history level (what happened to a person)
My mother just died of cancer from the same chemicals that are the cause of my metabolism distress and autonomic / nervous stress. I did not seem to have adverse childhood events... It was not considered so. I am almost sure most people here suffering from any metabolic desorder or low metabolism, and who do not have a history of trauma, have some sort of trauma that are not recognized as such.

Bully has been advertised, there is more to discover... May be we still do not even see all types of bully...

 

[smith]

At some point, you have to get over abuse you've suffered.
Often that can manifest in weird ways.

like sexualizing it?

 

[Xisca]

Telling people to get over abuses is precisely what prevents to recover.

Get over or overcome is the common advise so I do not critic you say it. I just warn from a trained point of view that the problem is here.

Sorry I cannot explain what needs to be done in a post...

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

like sexualizing it?

 

[smith]

Why did you quote my post with that sarcastic gif? Do you think what I wrote is a dirty joke or something? That's how a lot of people cope with trauma.. by sexualizing it. It's not that funny @pimpnamedraypeat

Telling people to get over abuses is precisely what prevents to recover.

Get over or overcome is the common advise so I do not critic you say it. I just warn from a trained point of view that the problem is here.

Sorry I cannot explain what needs to be done in a post...

+1 trauma isn't something you can just get over like it's a bad mood

 

[Xisca]

+1 trauma isn't something you can just get over like it's a bad mood

Yes and sorry you felt offended. There is not enough information on board and people react with misunderstanding and by joking because of feeling discomfort to not understanding.
There is no way to "make an effort" for anything about the ANS!
Yes some do.... but what will not show as emotion will show as somatic stuff....
Basically we are told to burry stuff instead of being helped to discharge it out....
I am trauma trained so I forgive but I am nevertheless sad too...

 

[tara]

Well, the concept of gaslighting is very interresting! And yes it is more frequent from men to women.

Hi Xisca, I have only now come across this thread you started last year.

These articles make important points. I've seen gaslightling used by women against men too occasionally, but it does seem to be a common thing when women object to insults or other mistreatment by men. Getting people to distrust their perception of reality, and blame themselves for the stresses and suffering they have had imposed on them, is very disempowering. (I think there are ways something like gas-lighting is systematically used to silence some other groups too - thinking young people, elders, people with disabilities or health challenges, maybe also working and unemployed people who are disenfranchised by structures of economic and political power etc.)

I am also reminded about an article I read a while ago about how when someone lives in a dangerous place, encouraging relaxation techniques may not be safe: they need to be alert to protect themselves from real harm. It's different when someone's internalised stress from past dangers that are over and the job at hand is to release them.

And learn social conflict, people mess with you because you can't or won't fight, and predators and sadists sense that.

I've been gradually learning to see how this works - I'm seeing how this mechanism has been in effect. Understanding that we have a right and responsibility to assert and defend our boundaries, and to respect others', is valuable learning - without which it is much easier to be manipulated.
Valuable social skills of courtesy that young people need to learn need to be complemented with being supported in also knowing that there are times when it is OK to say no, even if people don't like it.

But whatever the case is, shaming people for being sensitive will not make them more robust. "Toughen up" may be a well-meaning suggestion, but utterly useless for the sensitive person.

+1

... and would almost always be ethically bound to provide a "because" statement after each "I think" or "I feel."

I tend to agree with you that we should have a basis for our statements of fact ('I think'). I don't think that applies to feelings, though. They are to be felt as they are, and accepted, and don't need any justification. Trying to explain them can sometimes confuse the picture, and often we can be clearer about the 'why' after they are released than before. There is also the category of values, goals etc. Sometimes our thoughts have roots in our values or goals, and it is probably good if we can name these to ourselves at least, but I don't know that they can always be justified by evidence etc - I'm not sure if they count as 'think' or 'feel' statements.

But our limits are not only boundaries as of a country, they are also the place of contact.

Something I began to get a more explicit understanding of as I was learning to think more consciously in terms of boundaries, was that the more we are able to communicate our boundaries and maintain them when we need to, the more we can be open to real closeness at those boundaries - because we don't have to be so worried about our boundaries being overrun. We need a bigger no-mans-land when we don't have good ways to negotiate all the little conflicts with your partner/neighbour/workmate/partner etc before they turn into big conflicts or big boundary breaches.

I do think that we are getting better at dealing with bullying though.

I think we are getting better at recognising and stopping some of it. But I think there is a lot still running, some of it is systemic, and some of it is being deliberately fuelled.

Telling people to get over abuses is precisely what prevents to recover.

Yes. It can function a bit like gas-lighting, though it's often not intended that way. It communicates that they should not be suffering as they are and that it is their own fault if they are. Rather than more accurately acknowledging that there was harm, that they were not to blame for it, and that even if the event is over now, that something more may be needed for full recovery. If one thinks of those internal effects of trauma the same way one thinks of physical injuries it would seem silly - "Oh, that's 10 years since your leg got amputated. Can't you just get over it and run again now?"

like sexualizing it?

Seems like lots of people pass on the trauma they experienced, either as direct targets, or as bystanders who didn't figure out how to stop the trauma they witnessed.

 

[Xisca]

I will keep the image of running with 1 leg!
And yes you are right that secundary trauma is much the same.

We all need to learn to give adequate support to people who have suffered. We behave not right because we dont know what to do and feel helpless...

 

[Barliman]

Hi Xisca, I have only now come across this thread you started last year.




I think we are getting better at recognising and stopping some of it. But I think there is a lot still running, some of it is systemic, and some of it is being deliberately fuelled.

There's a very interesting book called "The Underground History of American Education". The author (John Taylor Gatto) comments that the US system of compulsory schooling was modelled directly on the Prussian system- which was strongly hierarchical.

Additionally the Christian model is based very much on the idea of original sin (Us Buddhists believe in original perfection). Now a situation where bullying is tolerated at school has real advantages. Even the regular victims will get caught up in peer pressure and be bullies themselves sometimes as they struggle for social acceptance.
So the lessons learned are that you need a powerful leader because you can't trust others and you can't even trust yourself.
Yes- it is being deliberately fuelled.
Many schools and teachers are waking up to it- but the US has further to go than others.
From an outside perspective I see some of this gender pronoun enforcement business as being an example of bullying by a minority.