• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

Beyond McMindfulness & Gaslighting

Xisca

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
If we share instead of repeating was has been said, well, can it be more interresting to create something new by sharing 2 things? Mix 2 cells and you have a new baby!

It is coincidence that those 2 are from the same website, as I collected them separately. If you considere the social drawback of the mindfulness trend, and add the gaslighting part of the next article, without the men/women aspect, then I can see 2 things:
- we make too many efforts to accept what is unacceptable,
- and at the same time, in the short term, this is life saving.

Beyond McMindfulness | HuffPost

A Message to Women From a Man: You Are Not "Crazy" | HuffPost

We obviously have cultural or social problems that bring us stress. If we cannot resolve the problem, the best we can do is to reduce our stress. Imagine you live as a woman in a very restrictive society and try to protest: you can be killed promptly. So you have to be frustrated, find some joy in life, try to reduce your stress, and then hopefully find a social way out of the problem. Women who cannot do that will die and serve as an example to motivate further intents.

You can apply this extreme example to whatever you find inacceptable in your surrounding, as work, which is the example of the article about Mindfulness.

Then the problem quoted by the article is that Mindfulness is instrumentalized! “Stress is YOUR problem, just do some minfulness and be productive!” Groups are no more responsible for the problems! Of course both people and the sum of the people have to be taken into account, and change the route of a big group is as difficult as changing the route of a heavy boat!

Then comes the concept of gaslighting….

In the end this is the same problem: make you think that YOU have a problem, and that YOU overreact to a situation! Just meditate please!

Problem: this leads to dissociation, just because you treat your nervous system while you are not OUT of the damage that is done to you. You can nicely self-regulate, but in the end nobody stops the big boat nor turn its driving wheel.
 

Xisca

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
I write about this because I have been those last years in something very similar. When I read those articles, I just started to think about what I have been accepting “to save me”, and how I was hurt when I sometimes did not want to accept what was going on! But the tactics that were saving me, in the end were also burning me…

First because I have done some building work, and people have been abusing. people make you feel YOU are crazy when you react to a real abuse! And thus they give themselves the right to "punish" you by abusing more... Well, the concept of gaslighting is very interresting! And yes it is more frequent from men to women. I have suffered this with the people working at my house. That is exactly this: they do something that is reprehensive, and when you complain, they find any way to make you feel you are the culprit or that you react badly to something that is normal! And of course they do so because they do not want to do better, or they cannot... In construction, the main argument they use is that you have changed your mind. When the truth is that they did what they wanted, and you HAVE to change something to adapt when things cannot be undone. I also remember I had to adapt to what they could realistically do. sometimes the boss would say yes to an idea, just to please, and then the workers would say that they cannot... Another way they manage to go on with their abuse is when they loose time for bad reasons such as organisation or having bad tools, or missing tools, they react to your complains by saying that you want them to work without having any rest. Of course they displace the complain, and makes you feel you are the bad guy...

I have shared this with a few women, as being a problem we suffer quite a lot in an island where people cannot be very openly violent. We can say we are lucky, but still, you have to live very near persons that hurt you and just hide the truth very well, which is different than when you live in a big area. And each time I have said the sentence I came out with, as a resume, if they have not shed a tear, there was some obvious shining in their eyes... and they all at least noded in silence, or say that it was exactly this. I just said that abusers tell you to let them f*** you or else they will remove the vaseline. Because yes, this is like mafia, whatever the level of violence, they will make worse if you do not accept the bad. There is a spanish expression saying "ir de Guatemala a Guatepeor", which means to go from bad to worse, mala meaning bad and peor meaning worse, with a pun on the name of the country Guatemala...

That is what stresses most people in their surrounding, social or work or neighbourhood. You cannot defend yourself easily without taking some RISKS. And what is NOT healpful in this case is to try to help people by giving them ideas! They have ideas, but how to start with them sefely? The first step is for sure to lower the stress, but then, we will need some social implements. Well this last word might be some spenglish...

So, of course Mindfulness is great, or any soothing on the nervous system, but beware to not fall in the trap of "I am responsible for everything", because it is not true. We are responsable for our reactions, even our anger, resentment etc, but not responsable alone for the situation at group level. In this respect, yes I like very much the article about McMindfulness.

And I would welcome very much how you have read them and if you can also relate them!
 

Integra

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Messages
118
Why would I ever stop meditating because being dissociated feels so good? Something bad happens and click, my mind rises above me, and everything even looks funny. I might fight, or I might not. I might just die if I completely stop caring. Why shouldn't I just sit down on some beach, relax completely, and die with a smile on my face? If I lived in Guatemala and now I found myself in Guatepeor :D, what is there to do but to shrug my shoulders and let the world collapse? Or maybe I should take the opposite road, just as stupid, and assume complete responsibility for everything around me, past and present?

I think there is nothing more stressful than culture and other people. Some people are just plain asleep, some are stupid by choice, some are desperate, some are evil, and some are completely insane. Dealing with them requires a choice every time: is it better to *****slap and run, or say 'namaste' and stab myself in the stomach? The solution is probably somewhere in between... Like you said, brief periods of dissociation can help me see things 'as they are', but when I lose my own emotions in the process, it loses all purpose. Destroying subjectivity for the sake of painless objectivity is not worth it. Being human is amazing. Today could be the last day of my life, right? So maybe I should smile, mindfully say 'namaste', roll up my yoga mat, and *****slap the abuser!
 

Travis

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2016
Messages
3,189
Gaslighting is a very important concept to understand. I would suggest even looking into the etymology of the word, it's very interesting.
 
L

lollipop

Guest
Being human is amazing. Today could be the last day of my life, right? So maybe I should smile, mindfully say 'namaste', roll up my yoga mat, and *****slap the abuser!
This.

Also one other thought, some stress in a system is GOOD. It causes the system to regroup, reorganize, get stronger. Look at what happens when a group decides not to "feel pain", "have stress": OPIOID epidemic which is sheer destructive spiraling down.
 

Xisca

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
and *****slap the abuser!
Just to ask the meaning! I could not guess! Does it mean to kick in the a**?
Gaslighting is a very important concept to understand. I would suggest even looking into the etymology of the word, it's very interesting.
Yes! It is in the 2nd article! From a film...
Why would I ever stop meditating because being dissociated feels so good?
Of course not! But I would prefer the type of meditation making you present than opiated and dreamy. The article does not say meditating is the problem.
The problem is in the shift of responsability for the cause of stress. Here is the link with gaslighting. Many people who meditate etc (from personally listening to some of them) try to be responsable of more than their own reactions.
Look at what happens when a group decides not to "feel pain"
Get it, like when they want people to work, be productive and do not feel pain.
OPIOID epidemic
And the problem said in this article is if they use mindfulness as opium only.
 

Integra

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Messages
118
giphy.gif


To blTCHslap ( :D ) : "To slap someone powerfully in the face, meant to assert dominance or control over the receiver" (Wiktionary)

I didn't mean to say meditation is the problem, sorry! I was trying to say that, even though meditation makes me feel very good, being in a dreamy state all the time is not good.
 

Xisca

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
lol now I can understand better, I had the meaning but at the wrong end of the person!
And I can understand your post: I think you were expressing the 2 opposites and then made the mix "So maybe I should smile, mindfully say 'namaste', roll up my yoga mat, and *****slap the abuser!"
Or maybe I should take the opposite road, just as stupid, and assume complete responsibility for everything around me, past and present?
Some people do, and I started protesting at some writings when a friend who had been abused by her grand father for years, took this way and published some sort of nice photo with a well written text, saying like "I am responsable for all what people did to me"
:eek:
The solution is probably somewhere in between... Like you said, brief periods of dissociation can help me see things 'as they are', but when I lose my own emotions in the process, it loses all purpose.
The world of dissociation is magic, when you do not stay there all the time!
And emotions are important, as long as they do not overwhelm. "Grow the saucepan so that milk does not go overboard!"
Would you put less milk in the pan? Dry up your emotions, no!
 

ReSTART

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2016
Messages
544
At some point, you have to get over abuse you've suffered.
Often that can manifest in weird ways.
 

Xisca

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
The big point for me was to be more conscious of the abuse. Actually, because also of cultural differences, I thought I was "asking too much relationship comfort", and that some places were worse, and that I had to get used to certains ways, and be satisfied with much less.
But no, too many people shut their mouth so that they will not suffer more abuse.

The big point is when it is not considered an abuse and you have no support because your are the too sensitive one! I agree to suffer of something from society, so that we can have the good part of it, but at least it can be recognize that there is a problem!

With support, you can get over. If what you got is nothing, you cannot get over nothing, or else you shut from relationships. What is best, no relation, or unsupportive accusing relationships?

At some point, you have to get over abuse you've suffered.
Often that can manifest in weird ways.
What are you thinking about? ;) This kind of answer shows it stems from many examples doesn't it?
 

Hugh Johnson

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2014
Messages
2,362
Location
The Sultanate of Portugal
Mindfulness comes fon Zen and that is a warrior's religion. The core of it is to stay balanced and take action. A Zen master might stalk a student and strike him with a stick when he was distracted to teach him to remain alert but relaxed and at ease. A beginner meditators can use that power to direct attention away from pain and bad emotion, but that is exactly what you should not do.

Learn to feel the feels, they get better if you do. And learn social conflict, people mess with you because you can't or won't fight, and predators and sadists sense that. Typically, such people will test with a minor boundary break, and if the would be victim lets it go, then it's off to the races. Good people do that too though, decent women usually do it to men to see if they are pushovers, so don't overreact just assert boundaries.

Try this:
 

Integra

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Messages
118
to remain alert but relaxed and at ease

What a life goal. Is it that feeling of being in the flow?
How to be relaxed while pointing a sword at a fuming dragon...
 

Integra

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Messages
118
The big point is when it is not considered an abuse and you have no support because your are the too sensitive one!

Didn't you also quote Peter Levine that trauma lies not in the event, but in the corresponding activation of the nervous system? A tiger or a mouse, doesn't matter if your legs are shaking.

Words hurt. Actions hurt. Conflicts hurt. Bad environments hurt. Harmful beliefs hurt. Pointless traditions hurt. There are so many things a human being can be sensitive to. But whatever the case is, shaming people for being sensitive will not make them more robust. "Toughen up" may be a well-meaning suggestion, but utterly useless for the sensitive person.
 

Integra

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Messages
118
When I learned from Carl Rogers that I am the best judge of my experience, it made me look around every "statement" about the world and myself in it, and ask "Is that so?" Transitioning from a highly neurotic/authoritarian/narcissistic state of mind to a more open, questioning, and curious feeling was scary and I made imperfect judgments all the time (unfortunately still do)--I saw how my personal preferences shifted my perspective, how certain fears made me avoid seeing into more detail, or how I held certain beliefs in order not to lose people I love, be cast out of the "group", or in general end up alone. With all that, I realized that it is much better to be yourself and alone than lying and surrounded by people who are free to mold you as they want, in which purpose they use gaslighting on your untrained mind, vulnerable soul, and frail ego. Gaslighting is usually some sort of evaluation masked as a statement. If we were using language correctly, we would begin every sentence with: "I think that _____" or "I feel that ______" and would almost always be ethically bound to provide a "because" statement after each "I think" or "I feel." If we can't do that (at least to ourselves), we have something unexamined, and Socrates would click his tongue at us.
 

Xisca

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
A beginner meditators can use that power to direct attention away from pain and bad emotion, but that is exactly what you should not do. Learn to feel the feels, they get better if you do.
1º is common in meditators, with the goal to feel good even if you don't.
2º is the goal, feel what it feels...
teach him to remain alert but relaxed and at ease.
How to be relaxed while pointing a sword at a fuming dragon...
Integra, you are not relaxed facing the dragon! There you fight! Relax AFTER lol, if there is an after!
In zen or other, you are relaxed when there is nothing around, because 1 you are present and at the moment there is nothing to react to, 2 you trust that you will react properly when there will be a need to do so.
So you relax and stay relax, though not sleeping, when you do not see the dragon, or the master that can come any moment. At night you sleep with your sword, but you sleep, so you are fine if the heat of the dragon wakes you up!
 

Xisca

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
Try this:
Richard Grannon, nice guy! That's good, I liked it!
Get better by feeling the feel is a big part in Somatic experiencing too!

A little review:
Nice metaphore of emotions that are not as the sales man knocking on the door: they do not go away! And right, then we become afraid of emotions because there too much, like in the cupboard where all falls if you open the door.

I also like the part about this special sort of responsability: you fall into bad relationships because you had some ptsd beforehand.

This I also have heard a lot when I started to know the trick, is to not answer to the question "how do you feel?" but talk about reasons as an answer! Like "why did this person..."I did this to make a woman feels her anger, just on the same theme I have in the place we live, and then she just ...fell asleep.

So, after avoiding them, how to get to the emotions? He makes people name them with adjectives, and it is so funny, if I can say so, when he says people know 2 feelings: I feel good, and I feel bad. When comes more, he says go into your body! Where the feelings are? And it is just aknowledging the feelings. He says this too, that this is not about what you think, not about the story but just about how you feel right now in your body.

Again is noted the difference, mainly cultural conditionning, between men and women, about what emotions you are not supposed to have, like anger and being judgemental, vindictive for women. And the male taboo is to be vulnerable, weak. Jealous, frighten, insecure... and he says men are happy to say they are full of rage!

I happen to have the 3 emotions he mentions that are not well accepted for women, and I know I have them, but then the problem is when people try to make me feel bad to have them!

The last one was unfortunately with my familly, and we almost never see each others, and I have to cut all relationships, well they want to too, I do not mind. They can say I am a storm, though it was almost nothing, but for people who reject expressing emotions... Maybe too much... There is so little expressed emotions that we do not know each other at all.
That is what Richard says at the end of the video, to be intimate, you need to show your emotions and be vulnerable. And 1st, you need to let out and acknowledge your emotions. And you cannot start this in a group of people who have shut the door of the reservoir as this guy says... Now when I see the signs of my tipical familly reservoir, and the result on my nephews... No! I cannot shut up!
I prefer not to see them if I have to shut up and as my brother says if I contest his authority in front of his daughter... I contested abuse. There has never been ANY quarrel in the familly, and I have never even once heard my parents have a dispute... And that's Sh**!

Edit: let's do better the exercice of feeling: I am angry, disgusted, astonished, cabreada, sad, isolated, and I feel like an astronaute hanging in space. Fortunately with some oxygene coming in, and with enough CO2 and red light. I would just like to recover a bit more sense of gravity... Some sea bath will be welcome...
 
Last edited:

Hugh Johnson

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2014
Messages
2,362
Location
The Sultanate of Portugal
What a life goal. Is it that feeling of being in the flow?
How to be relaxed while pointing a sword at a fuming dragon...
You are not necessarily relaxed while facing the dragon. But you don't actually know when the dragon attacks, and you need to remain alert so it can't get the jump on you, and you must remain at ease because trying too hard uses up your energy making it impossible to live or to remain alert. It's not quite flow, I think, it's not holding onto things too hard, mostly mentally.

Why you push the incence stick into the sand, you need to push enough for it is stand, but not so much it breaks. You must focus to get it right, but not strain because it is just an incence. You hold onto life lightly, like you hold onto sand. Too tight, and you push it out of the hand, too light and it pours out. A Zen master when striking is all tension and violence at the point of contact, but grabs a paintbrush with a light touch.

There is an idea that a holy man is not one that is without anger, or shame, or lust, but one that feels such emotions immediately, without shame or the other secondary and tertiary emotions caused by feeling the first emotion.
 

Xisca

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 30, 2015
Messages
2,273
Location
Canary Spain
Facing a dragon is easy, as you know you have to fight.
Facing people you have to live with, share, work with etc, is another cup of tea when they do not mean to hurt you!
Facing people who are your familly and do not mean anything bad though they hurt, is not a dragon.

I have been exausted by having to stand workers by telling myself that at least I had some job done day after day.
I have settled down my emotions though I recognized them for what they were. I have managed to stay human and caring with people (they themselves had to please their boss...)

I have clearly seen the cultural difference, as I had a boyfriend who was sending me the message that, yes here it is like this, here people do such things, that's normal, that's what it is. I clearly saw that my standard for what is a good behaviour, a good job done etc, were different as I was not born here. He himself had more than boundaries: a wall. Thick one. Kind heart behind yes, but very wouldned. He knows and I know that life here was very very difficult at survival level for the former generation.

He himself did not hurt me, but he let me be hurt, the same as he let his mother be hurt, because there was no way to defend her. I am sure he felt hurt by me, because I stired this in him. So the problem when you react right, and that it touches others, they do not see that the past hurts them, and they turn to YOU. In the present, you are the one who makes a difference and make the pain shows up.

So yes I thought I was too reactive, and this does not appear in the article. The reaction was appropriate for me, but not in the culture.

My familly is in the continent, not in the island, so I had no support, and anyway, I would not have had support more than being advised at mental level, I would not have had emotional support at all.
our father is just slowing down with a weak metabolism and undiagnosed hypothyroidism! The only success at the moment is that I could get him take atrantil and it helped his constipation.

I am sure some of you have had reactions about the way you try to be in charge of your health, and even that you are crazy, what ever you do from paleo to Peat to take supplements. Am I crazy to think he is hypothyroid though doctors say no because his TSH is fine?

How often are we supposed to not recognize what we feel, and control the subsequent level of stress?

That is the point of joining those 2 articles.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Top