[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[narouz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I just wanted to chime in from a Forum Philosophy angle.

On the one hand, I enjoy reading points of view that are different from Peat's.
On the other hand, if ANY point of view can be posted on the forum,
the forum loses its focus
and any weird hack can use it as a platform for espousing or even selling their own stuff.

So, what to do?

I think it's a bit of a balancing act.
Personally, as I say, I like to hear ideas, even if they violate some of Peat's basic notions.
For instance,
I like reading kineticz's stuff,
even though there's no way in hell I'm downing a tablespoon of pure PUFA daily as an experiment.

Now, continuing on a bit with kineticz' as an example,
he has said in no uncertain terms to the mods here
that he is all about improving his health
and not much at all about learning about Peat.
One the other hand, he does make some nods to Peat, respecting many of Peat's ideas, etc

Or we could consider the case of the late VoS.
Very similar to kineticz's example:
respectful nods to Peat
but at the same time violating some key Peat ideas (or at least methodologies).

Or the example of Stuart,
the guy who asked why there is so much soluble fiber in mothers' milk,
who made some respectful bows to Peat,
but who also got a bit carried away when dogged by a certain moderator
and as a result lashed back at said mod by sortuv calling out the forum as a "Peat Zoo" and suchlike.

And then there was the mysterious case of Mr. Goldbluev.
He too fled when a certain mod started bothering him.
He was outspokenly anti-Peat in most ways, but...\
I still wanted to hear what he had to say.

Or there's the case of the thread questioning if PUFA is all bad,
which got flat locked
simply because it was deemed outrageous on the face of it
(again, I am vehemently anti-PUFA and avoid it at every turn,
but isn't it kinda weird, on a Ray Peat forum,
to be locking down threads simply because they challenge a main Peat view...?)

I don't mean to pick on the mods.
It is part of their job, as they understand it,
to monitor threads and posts and see if they detect anti-Peat stuff
and to kinda smack, reprimand, threaten, or otherwise Defend the Forum.
And, in the absence of a more nuanced forum philosophy, how can the mods be blamed?

So...
what to do?

What if Charlie made a kind of containment tank or restricted zone or whatever.
I have jokingly suggested this before
and have suggested naming such a tank or zone things like
"Peat AntiChrists"
or
"Peat Infidels"
Maybe there could be a couple different Circles of Hell, ala Dante.
Perhaps there could be a first, mildly evil, circle of hell
that might be called something not too flaming
like "Somewhat UnPeat Ideas But Perhaps of Some Interest to Peatians."
Okay...rather clumsy, I grant; but I'm sure others could improve--just tossing out rough notions.
And then you might have deeper circle of hell called something like what I noted above,
something connoting "X-Rated from a Peat Perspective but Take a Look If You Are Evil"...

I think such a system might improve the forum.
1. ideas that are not strictly Peatian--or even flamingly UnPeatian--could still be made available
2. we could believe, with some good reason, that we are participating in a pretty open-minded, non-authoritarian forum
3. the mods wouldn't have to waste their time monitoring and ferreting and Defending the Realm; they could just move the offending threads to some PUFA-Smelling restricted zone and be, mostly, done with it

This is just a rough first proposal.
My aim is to try to preserve as much worthwhile discourse while still maintaining some forum focus.
I am also motivated to suggest such options because I'd like to be able to check in and see
if you hemp oil drinkers are still alive in a few months.
As it is, I can't help thinking this thread will simply be locked down.
I think there are better, more Peatian options.

 

[brandonk]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114273

post 113812 because ketogenisis may work for you, but not for another. And what works for you now, may not be the answer later.

amen amen amen. i've splattered this idea all over the forum and it's particularly important to remember with this thread. i appreciate kinect's information and believe that a lot of it is physiologically sound and many people could benefit from the perception that his posts could inspire. the only "answer" really is, as Peat says, to "perceive, think, act". That's the only answer there is when it comes to healing. That's the answer for everyone. if some people are offended by the information he is providing, this only highlights the presence of inner authoritarians. if he believes that his current state of perception and way of life and diet is what everyone needs and what he will always need (i don't think he's saying this really) then that would be a step back in perception.

for me, personally, i've taken away great information on coconut oil, magnesium, zinc, calcium, and PUFA.

There is not an authoritarian bone in my body, but he is relying on the website of Dr. Sarah Myhill, who has no good scientific basis for her claims, and is instead relying on her purported authoritarian credentials as a Doctor, even though she's been banned from the practice of medicine for endangering her patients.

Please don't be fooled by someone claiming to be anti-authoritarian into relying on authoritarian sources. It's inimical to the purpose of "perceive, think, act."

Swallowing a tablespoon or more of vegetable seed oil per day, using an intestinal irritant like magnesium chloride, supplementing zinc and avoiding calcium for more than a short period of time -- all of this advice is potentially dangerous, or even fatal depending on your own physical condition.

It's important that be said, as some here have tried to say. There's nothing improper or authoritarian about that.

I didn't say that disagreeing with the information is holding onto inner authoritarians, i said that getting offended by the information is. ... I'm not saying any of this to suggest that i am against anybody's protocol, just that what this thread offers is not really so controvercial.

The posts above by "kineticz" are paraphrased from site of "Dr." Sarah Myhill's. In effect, she is saying that you should follow her advice because she is a doctor, and "doctor" is in the website title and in her domain name. This is, for me, authoritarian.

Others here are offering opinions (NathanK, cantstoppeating, tara and others) that you clearly have the freedom to disregard. Not one of them is compelling you to act in a certain way under the guise of an authority. There is nothing, for me, authoritarian about that.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

A lot of things feel better for a while, then they feel worse. Phospholipid exchange may be one of those.

One of the common things about forums is the huge enthusiasm that greets an idea. Then later on, the huge enthusiasm gets tempered by reality, and people don't care because they've moved onto something else.

Trying this for 6 months may be more interesting -- but I wouldn't try it for 6 months, at least at this moment. I am trying to rid my body of PUFAs and build some Mead acid stores, if there is any truth to that which I think there is.

But if I do this exchange and "feel better" at first, that doesn't prove anything to me at all. In fact, I've been feeling really good most of the time, but sometimes bad, on these Peat-style changes, and one day or one week doesn't mean anything to me. I'm looking at the long run. That's why I'm here. And the long run is very different from "feeling better" after trying something for a few days.

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114284

post 114273

post 113812 because ketogenisis may work for you, but not for another. And what works for you now, may not be the answer later.

amen amen amen. i've splattered this idea all over the forum and it's particularly important to remember with this thread. i appreciate kinect's information and believe that a lot of it is physiologically sound and many people could benefit from the perception that his posts could inspire. the only "answer" really is, as Peat says, to "perceive, think, act". That's the only answer there is when it comes to healing. That's the answer for everyone. if some people are offended by the information he is providing, this only highlights the presence of inner authoritarians. if he believes that his current state of perception and way of life and diet is what everyone needs and what he will always need (i don't think he's saying this really) then that would be a step back in perception.

for me, personally, i've taken away great information on coconut oil, magnesium, zinc, calcium, and PUFA.

There is not an authoritarian bone in my body, but he is relying on the website of Dr. Sarah Myhill, who has no good scientific basis for her claims, and is instead relying on her purported authoritarian credentials as a Doctor, even though she's been banned from the practice of medicine for endangering her patients.

Please don't be fooled by someone claiming to be anti-authoritarian into relying on authoritarian sources. It's inimical to the purpose of "perceive, think, act."

Swallowing a tablespoon or more of vegetable seed oil per day, using an intestinal irritant like magnesium chloride, supplementing zinc and avoiding calcium for more than a short period of time -- all of this advice is potentially dangerous, or even fatal depending on your own physical condition.

It's important that be said, as some here have tried to say. There's nothing improper or authoritarian about that.

I didn't say that disagreeing with the information is holding onto inner authoritarians, i said that getting offended by the information is. ... I'm not saying any of this to suggest that i am against anybody's protocol, just that what this thread offers is not really so controvercial.

The posts above by "kineticz" are paraphrased from site of "Dr." Sarah Myhill's. In effect, she is saying that you should follow her advice because she is a doctor, and "doctor" is in the website title and in her domain name. This is, for me, authoritarian.

Others here are offering opinions (NathanK, cantstoppeating, tara and others) that you clearly have the freedom to disregard. Not one of them is compelling you to act in a certain way under the guise of an authority. There is nothing, for me, authoritarian about that.

for the record, i was not referring to you or any of the others you've listed as being authoritarian or being offended by kineticz. ...or me. I could care less about Sarah Mayhill. All i care about is the information. And the information, which i don't feel you've really touched, is something i doubt you could argue with. What most people have argued about is attitude/personal things (like, "are you sure you know what's going on in your body?) In an environment like this...yes, it's probably irresponsible for kineticz to give prescriptions or bring the information into the realm of a protocol....as it inevitably leads people to minimize the actual supporting information and focus on the protocol only....but people are openly asking for ideas publicly. What should be focused on is the physiological information. I am not, nor do i intend, to get on a kineticz/Mayhill bandwagon....but i have perceived much of this *information* with my body and experimenting alone.

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114288 A lot of things feel better for a while, then they feel worse. Phospholipid exchange may be one of those.

exactly, this truth has now been repeated a few times in this thread. To think anyone has found THE diet leads to a rigid state. It still does not discount the physiological information provided. Everyone is talking mostly about a protocol and not considering the real implications of the information.

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114283 It is part of their job, as they understand it,
to monitor threads and posts and see if they detect anti-Peat stuff

i think their main focus is civility...but i have noticed this trend as well. I was blocked once because i was challenging the approach of giving advice that is used around here....they noticed the trend and blocked me....and then said that it wasn't because of what i was writing and trying to help others with, but because of my tone, essentially.
either way, i think your post brings up a really criticial flaw in the forum. The peatarian forum was more tapped into the truth that Ray Peat does not hold a patent on the human body but as rather a visionary or innovator of new perceptions and thoughts....essentially, i felt it was a forum reflective of a Ray Peat "spirit". I am already sensing here that the primary purpose of the forum is to stick to Peat information (where did he get his information? from scientific studies, from self-perception). which is ironic and all, because....in the end, it kind of does make you question why have Ray Peat's name in the banner. This forum here has taught me so much and really taught me a lot about human psychology and the bigger philosophical ideas surrounding nutrition and health. This forum is used primarily by people looking for healing.....and in all of Ray Peat's work he talks very very little about the practicalities of healing....he very rarely takes on the position of practitioner. So there's kind of a mismatch between how this forum is used and what Ray Peat's information is really specifically regarding. An example would be that it makes much more sense to have a "Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride" forum because she has written so specifically regarding one protocol. Because of the "looser" nature of Peat's writings and his philosophical angles probably holding the most rarity, it would make sense that this forum would be a bit more "loose". Discovering or wondering about or even talking about something that Ray Peat has never talked about or something that you feel is incomplete in what he has written is not counter-Peat. Ray Peat is a pretty humble and curious man and would probably enjoy a coffee chat with someone who has tapped into some new angle on a subject.

The including of his name in the web banner is probably important only in that it sets a foundation of writings to spring from, a standard of critical thinking, and a basic agreement on the "only valid protocol". In other words, you do need moderators in this kind of environment and i think it would be a lot of responsibility to keep this delicate balance. overall, i think they do.

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114276 So diet on lean meat and veggies for proper methylation? I don't know..

i am, by no means, a business partner of kineticz but in no instance did he say his diet is only lean meat and veggies.

 

[Agent207]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

But if I do this exchange and "feel better" at first, that doesn't prove anything to me at all.

Why would you have to do it always? Do you consider somethings performs better intermittently? Stress is one of the best examples. Too much is bad, 0 bad too. Homeostasis and good stress management = optimal. But hey, that is more complicated to reach. Its not like if someone you trust tells you this is good this is bad. Take it everyday or dont take it ever.

No one is going to dictate the "optimal setting" for your particular needs, thats something you have to find for yourself, and even sometimes you wil have to break some rules.

 

[zooma]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

[ref]narouz[/ref], sums it up well. Always the voice of reason

An important point to remember is the majority of members here don't have any scientific background. When differing views to Peat's are posted, you can't expect an expert demonstration of why that view may be wrong; they are simply going to quote Ray's own words. This isn't authoritarian to me, it is more an invitation to explain where the disagreement occurs.

Having that point of reference makes it far easier to evaluate an idea and decide whether it is something you want to experiment with.

We all have the same goal, and generally all have the same openness to new ideas. But I don't think that is the same as blindly accepting new ideas.

The people looking for a new guru have come and gone over the years as you would expect.

 

[zooma]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114276 So diet on lean meat and veggies for proper methylation? I don't know..

I may be wrong, but I think his diet is probably very similar to the one on Dr. Myhill's website given he referred to it by the name she uses 'stone age diet'.

 

[supernature]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Overall this thread is interesting to me, holds a discussion of the process like the Methylation that happens in one of the main organs in the body- the Liver, responsible for detoxification of impurities in the body. Also discusses the function of the Kidneys, the health and the steps that are necessary for those organs to function properly.

Through my point of view kiteticz is advising us before even trying to restore Liver and Kidney functions to clean first the tissues, the cells from heavy metals and junk, or at least thats what i though is happening through this method of Phospholipids exchange. As i see it the latter is just a step in the whole process and should be done only from time to time, periodically, not all the time for long periods. As a cleaning phase those phospholipids exchange is actual a detox process, isnt it?, and i'm pretty sure my body will feel better if dont experience detox symptoms all the time, nor dont want to handle it either.

If someone want to try all that, dont have to follow the protocol of Dr MyHill for expl if dont like it, this is just an example i guess, i thing its more about the case of detoxing before start rebuilding the tissues, and that could be done in diff way at least preferred ones.

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 113958 Approaching nutrition a peat way one could very well get enough pufa naturally occurring in a lot of foods without resorting to peculiar methods like taking spoonfuls of pufa oils. Lot of us are on this forum for a reason and we do stand against pufa in general. One can also get from your posts that b6 and magnesium are indeed important however something at least to me is already emphasized within the way of thinking represented by this forum.

:1
And the reason many of us avoid PUFAs is because Peat has presented relevant evidence of its harm.

post 114273 There is not an authoritarian bone in my body, but he is relying on the website of Dr. Sarah Myhill, who has no good scientific basis for her claims, and is instead relying on her purported authoritarian credentials as a Doctor, even though she's been banned from the practice of medicine for endangering her patients.

Please don't be fooled by someone claiming to be anti-authoritarian into relying on authoritarian sources. It's inimical to the purpose of "perceive, think, act."

Swallowing a tablespoon or more of vegetable seed oil per day, using an intestinal irritant like magnesium chloride, supplementing zinc and avoiding calcium for more than a short period of time -- all of this advice is potentially dangerous, or even fatal depending on your own physical condition.

It's important that be said, as some here have tried to say. There's nothing improper or authoritarian about that.

:1

post 114277 getting offended by the information is

Does it count as information in the absence of supporting evidence?
I get offended when someone makes bold assertions with little or no supporting evidence, especially when they
run counter to the purposes of this forum, and then get defensive or aggressive when people queston it.

post 114277 But....hello.....the oyster industry depends on Danny Roddy and raypeatforum.com.

I rather think the oyster industry depends on lots of people loving the taste of oysters, and maybe how they make them feel, and maybe sometimes cravings. There's also a meme that's been around for decades that they are aphrodisiacs. I rather doubt most of the people round here who pay $30+ dozen have all read Peat or Roddy. Personally, I've enjoyed oysteres long before reading Peat, just wished I could afford them more. There ae long traditions of valuing and eating them since before Peat or Roddy wrote about them. :)

post 114277 The absence of magnesium in the Peat diet protocol that was invented has always been something i've noticed like others, too.

I'm not sure quite what you think 'the Peat diet protocol' is, since Peat himself has explicitly said there isn't one.
Peat frequently mentions the need for magnesium. I consider it one of his important recommendations. He also says that people who are hypothyroid tend to need more of it because it is lost more easily, that Mg deficiency is common, and that NaCl can help retain it. One thing I conclude from reading him is that some people would not get enough Mg by following exactly what Peat himself eats, since he maintains a euthyroid state. He has recommended broth from greens specifically as a good way to supplement MG if needed. He claims to get sufficient for himself primarily from OJ and coffee. Many of us don't drink as much strong coffee as he does. I certainly don't. Based on reading Peat, I don't expect sick hypothyroid people to recover well if they are getting insufficient Mg.

post 114279 If no one here questioned the merit of swallowing spoons of vegetable oil daily, you would wonder if they had ever looked at Ray's work.

OP has presented several theories of his own that contradict Peat's since he joined the forum, but I don't see anything that shows he has attempted to engage with reading or understanding what Peat has written. He hasn't addresed why he disagrees with Peat on some of these points, just ignores them. (Eg the existence/non-existence of cell membranes, and the actual damage done by PUFAs) It's a bit mystifying why he is here, since the purpose of the forum is to learn about and discuss Peat's ideas. (Not necessarily to always agree with them.)
Unlike OP, Peat routinely tells us what the evidence is that he bases his opinions on, so we are better able to judge his claims for ourselves.

post 114283 On the one hand, I enjoy reading points of view that are different from Peat's.
On the other hand, if ANY point of view can be posted on the forum,
the forum loses its focus
and any weird hack can use it as a platform for espousing or even selling their own stuff.

:1

post 114283 I am also motivated to suggest such options because I'd like to be able to check in and see
if you hemp oil drinkers are still alive in a few months.

post 114284 The posts above by "kineticz" are paraphrased from site of "Dr." Sarah Myhill's. In effect, she is saying that you should follow her advice because she is a doctor, and "doctor" is in the website title and in her domain name. This is, for me, authoritarian.

:1, especially if it goes with aggression or defensiveness when either of them are questioned.

post 114288 A lot of things feel better for a while, then they feel worse. Phospholipid exchange may be one of those.

This wouldn't surprise me. I think there are some known mechanisms for this wrt PUFAs.

post 114288 One of the common things about forums is the huge enthusiasm that greets an idea. Then later on, the huge enthusiasm gets tempered by reality, and people don't care because they've moved onto something else.

Trying this for 6 months may be more interesting -- but I wouldn't try it for 6 months, at least at this moment. I am trying to rid my body of PUFAs and build some Mead acid stores, if there is any truth to that which I think there is.

But if I do this exchange and "feel better" at first, that doesn't prove anything to me at all. In fact, I've been feeling really good most of the time, but sometimes bad, on these Peat-style changes, and one day or one week doesn't mean anything to me. I'm looking at the long run. That's why I'm here. And the long run is very different from "feeling better" after trying something for a few days.

:1

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114329 Does it count as information in the absence of supporting evidence?
I get offended when someone makes bold assertions with little or no supporting evidence, especially when they
run counter to the purposes of this forum, and then get defensive or aggressive when people queston it.

what kind of supporting evidence are you looking for?
i don't think many people read all of the original piece that kineticz wrote. the picture i saw was people jumping to conclusions and not taking the time to actually read what he was writing which led him to get "defensive or aggressive", as you put it. what are the purposes of this forum? i really don't understand the controvercy (sans maybe the phospholipied exchange)....but the phospholipid exchange was like 15% of everything he shared.

post 114329 There ae long traditions of valuing and eating them since before Peat or Roddy wrote about them.

i know, i was just kidding. i just didn't understand the controvercy brandonk had over kineticz talking about the role of zinc in the body when zinc pretty clearly has great coverage here (though for different reasons). again, what is the controvercy? : )

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

In case others who have gotten into this thread and missed kineticz's original info.:

post 113117 Ketogenesis directly produces acetyl coenzyme A and bypasses all the problems with glucose but due to it's requirement for fatty acids to generate ATP is highly reliant on a healthy liver, kidneys and the adrenal hormone adrenaline. What is adrenaline made out of? Tyrosine. What is thyroxine made out of? Tyrosine.

Because ketogenesis is extremely efficient but energy intensive, it relies on healthy liver methylation to mop up potential stray fatty acids that become damaged, and the adrenals and kidneys must sustain tyrosine and adrenaline in order to match the fat burning shuttle into ATP.

Hence I still support Ray's views on limiting PUFAs and using sugar, albeit diligently. Sugar is helpful to lighten the load of the adrenals in providing the fatty acids and ketones to generate ATP without becoming hypoadrenal and therefore hypothyroid.

There is nothing better than a ketogenic body using coconut oil for energy and healthy brain cell membranes retaining magnesium reducing any chance of angiotensin and cortisol raising blood sugar causing diabetes, alongside healthy kidneys retaining sodium and producing glycine and tyrosine.

Sugars job should be to protect overwork of the kidneys and adrenals so that tyrosine can be sustained, and such efficient burning of fats will work in combination with sugar reducing the risk of excessive fatty acid liberation causing oxidative stress.

Methylation occurs in the liver and is driven by several minerals and mostly by ATP.

It produces antioxidants and pro-heart nutrients such as creatine and carnitine. It renews cell DNA and encourages more DNA expression. Ray suggests that overmethylating is harmful due to excessive incomplete DNA.

But a person can, and more commonly does, undermethylate, resulting in increased angiotensin and cortisol. Lowered creatine and carnitine cause the heart to overwork as the kidneys and lungs angiotensin causes vasoconstriction and reduced oxygenated blood supply, so the liver has trouble clearing out toxins.

In this situation calcium and glutamate accumulate in the brain as it consumes 20% of the body's energy but only has 2% mitochondria to produce it's own energy. So the kidneys vasoconstrict and become damaged by the accumulation of calcium which is excitotoxic to cells.

Undermethylation is ultimately due to low ATP and high calcium toxicity, as with most degenerative diseases. Minerals like zinc, P5P, and magnesium are important for methylation.

But the most challenging is breaking the ATP stalemate where the kidneys and heart are overworked to supply energy to the glutamate in the brain, while the liver is stuck in the middle with a build up of toxins and a low overall metabolic rate which calcifies the kidneys, promoting kidney disease.

When brain ATP is low, the heart muscle stiffens and blood pressure rises. As kidney disease progresses, blood pressure falls.

The brain is priority 1 for the whole body because it consumes so much energy with very little of it's own ATP and glucose or ketone stores. The worse the situation is for brain energy supply, the slower methylation and detoxification becomes.

The liver completely bypasses producing glutathione and creatine etc because it needs the homocysteine protein to produce ammonia and raise angiotensin, which raises cortisol, which raises blood sugar directly to the brain, at great expense to all the other organs, and promotes insulin resistance.

So baring this in mind, it makes sense that improving the health of the brain ATP supply, which is supplied by the myelin sheath, will help the body to resume it's duties and lower calcium toxicity.

This is why I link to this: http://www.doctormyhill.co.uk/wiki/Phos ... d_exchange

Flush out the toxic cells in place of shiny new ones, which maximises the chance of retaining magnesium and getting ATP into the brain to lower glutamate, which raises GABA.

Methylation should get more interest on the forum. Ray always deconstructs the roles and is especially a fan of glycine, which is crucial to stimulate the transsulfuration and remethylation pathways, but he never directly refers to methylation due to the extreme argument that overmethylation is damaging. 80% of people are undermethylators and could benefit from increased methylation, as it drives heart performance and cell health. Antioxidants are not made internally without methylation.



Notice the bottom right hand corner. Cortisol diversion of the methylation pathways and the use of proteins. This happens primarily when there is an energy crisis in and to the brain. The heart performance reduces when liver performance reduces. The body then diverts protein synthesis to constrict supply in the lungs and kidneys to retain blood pressure to the brain.

Notice the arrow leading from ammonia in the kidneys to produce arginine and NO which haidut has made clear the adverse effects from.

It is also worth noting the decline of the G6PDH enzyme to the left in green that occurs when this cortisol pathway goes up. G6PDH is critical for the intracellular space to retain and recycle the antioxidant glutathione, and the function of NADH. This increases the health and longevity of red blood cells to provide richer oxygen and fuel to your organs to perform repairs and accept increases in metabolism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose-6 ... deficiency

Go down to the Pathophysiology section. A failure in this pathway can further contribute to calcification and kidney disease.

NADH is important for the side cleavage enzyme P450 to work, which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone. So methylation is absolutely crucial to our endeavours. Reducing angiotensin by improving the ATP supply to the brain increases the likelihood that NADH and P450 work to increase metabolism and limit cortisol.

Finally, It is also worth noting that there is low phenylphalanine to tyrosine, and low serine to glycine conversions found in kidney disease (calcium toxic kidneys). We all know how important tyrosine and glycine are.

Your kidneys are the bodys last resort to boost brain energy before kidney failure. It must be your first priority to reduce calcium toxicity and improve the health of your cell membranes/phospholipids, while limiting fatty acid liberation from the liver. Free roaming fatty acids quickly turn into oxidative stress if your ATP ion pumps are weak, hampering your chances of getting sodium and magnesium to stay into cells, and calcium to stay in bone.

My kidneys have thanked me since I added in the phospholipid exchange and ionised magnesium in the bath and before bed, along with 50mg P5P. I feel like my DHEA has gone up, indicating lowered parathyroid and vit D downregulation of excess calcium.

Prolonged adrenaline and cortisol maximise oxidative stress, which maximises your need to do a phospholipid exchange regularly until your kidneys heal and metabolism increases in the liver. You do not want your brain cell membranes to be made up of oxidized fatty acids from a burdened liver.

This is why I am not convinced that more calcium in milk etc is sensible, since in low ATP states calcium will ALWAYS be the body's way of energising and killing stressed and de-energised cells, along with glutamate. All you're doing by consuming calcium is docompensating your body's means of sustaining energy to the brain. A battle that is foolish to fight.

The issue with calcium is low ATP, and not really to do with parathyroid hormone. Parathyroid hormone and serotonin are a red herring, a downstream protective adaptation by the body to sustain kidney output. If you want to solve issues you should always go for the source, not tree branch symptoms.

So healing is not based around more calcium and lower serotonin, it is around boosting cell membranes, heart performance (the heart loves burning fats so taking l-carnitine (NOT acetyl carnitine) should help), brain energy supply and ATP, lowering aldosterone and increasing antioxidant reserves through lowering oxidative stress (excess free roaming glucose and fatty acids).

A weak liver means a weak heart, and poor condition cell membranes.
A weak heart means weak kidneys and calcification. Poor vascularity and endurance.
Calcification means high cortisol which atrophies everything, your thymus, pineal, blood vessels, cell respiration, testosterone production, adrenals, thyroid, everything.
Weak kidneys mean low glycine, low tyrosine, hypertension, poor sodium retention, high aldosterone, high ammonia, high arginine, and damaged, low energy red blood cells.

Since the brain is no1. priority, it should be worked on first. The brain is made up of fats. Some are the 'doomed' essential fatty acids, this cannot be avoided. The brain condition and supply, and the liver methylation, need more focus on this forum. I rarely see brain health mentioned, because fatty acids are viewed as so negative, like serotonin. The brain is one lump of fat and they are not all coconut oil I have to tell you. Coconut oil is just a fuel. Ray's views on fatty acids and methylation are potentially at great disadvantage to those attempting his otherwise very imperative views on limiting oxidative stress.

PUFAs are toxic to cell respiration, fair enough. But what he neglected to point out is that the brain contains and needs omega 6 and 3 in a particular ratio of 4 to 1. And as I have discussed at length, if the brain isn't happy, ALL ORGANS SLOW AND BECOME TOXIC. It is not made of glucose (lol) or saturated fat alone. It's made from EFA and choline. Unlike all other organs made from protein in the body, the brain is a lump of a variety of fats that need the right proportions to limit the chance of glutamate. It is more akin to a mass of cells rather than a typical organ such as the liver or heart.

An energised brain makes you more likely to break out of learned helplessness, which solves the serotonin issue.

The way I see the totality of problems is as a canti-lever of distribution of energy. More prolonged oxidative stress and glutathione depletion will shift towards angiotensin and cortisol. The heart will suffer as a result of the poor energy supply to the brain. Weak heart, weak brain, you suffer from degenerative diseases and you die early. Kidney disease patients can rely on dialysis to flush out the imbalance of electrolytes, phosphates, as a result of toxic liver undermethylation. The lungs, well, you just suffer from shortness of breath and low stamina in the gym but they rarely fail. All of this is due to a poor production and delivery of ATP to the brain in our toxic mass production world.

Methylation isn't something to take lightly as it affects DNA and RNA transcription. SAH will be high in undermethylators as it is greatly toxic and inhibitory to SAMe. Also, we need to take the focus off serotonin for a moment. Peat's context of serotonin does not apply to the methylation context.

I don't want us to directly alter methylation at least in the beginning. I have argued rather about the adaptive rerouting towards supporting cortisol and not antioxidants when cellular calcium and glutamate block ATP production. My view is that methylation is greatly hindered by angiotensin, and angiotensin is intensified when the brain (no other organ) is not getting enough ATP itself and enough quality red blood cells. Hence I mentioned earlier the G6PDH enzyme which recycles glutathione.

ATP goes up in the brain when the phospholipids that constitute the brain are the right consistency, and healthy red blood cells go up when the kidneys recover. So this is something that needs to be simultaneously addressed in order for methylation to start using cysteine for glutathione instead of ammonia, and cysteine to be remethylated to mitochondrial performance duties such as carnitine, norephiprene, etc at the top left of the chart I posted on the previous page.

Personally I wouldn't test anything. I would restore ATP to the brain, regularly do a phospholipid exchange, take magnesium and carnitine and get on with my life, as I have been doing with huge success. It is only with this great clarity I have been able to put together the extensive theories on the previous page.

The most clear markers for undermethylation would have to be high homocysteine and high serum B12. But the most relevant marker is persistently high cortisol. Even if cortisol shows as low, indicating advanced adrenal weakness, it still points to overstimulation of cortisol by angiotensin, hence severe undermethylation.

All methylation needs is for ATP to be in adundance. Then you add in methyl b-vitamins, magnesium and zinc. It can't methylate when cortisol is excessive and calcium is blocking up ion pumps and respiration.

And as I explained earlier, increasing G6PDH increases NADH, NADH increases P450, P450 increases pregnenolone, pregnenolone increases ATP and metabolism and lowers cortisol, which continues to lower calcium and glutamate. The liver methylation needs to produce glutathione for G6PDH to lock in and recycle glutathione.

So to kickstart methylation you renew your inevitably toxic brain cells, and take a very small amount of select mitochondrial nutrients. Works for me.

High pregnenolone, high ATP, high intracellular magnesium, sodium and potassium, high ATP to the healthy brain cells maintained by a healthy liver methylation. That solves all issues. Healthy methylation increases serotonin IN BALANCE WITH dopamine for ultimate calmness.

Healthy kidneys means increased vit D, DHEA, sodium, glycine, serine, tyrosine, to name a few.

Follow Ray's advice regarding limiting overconsumption of PUFAS but add the below phospholipid exchange protocol into your life. What I am trying to bring to the debate is some crucial context regarding perspective and balance about adaptive mechanisms in the body, mainly angiotensin.

All organs are made of protein. The brain is made of fat. And it isn't coconut oil.

The point isn't whether you are deficient in pufas, it's whether you specfically target the ratio of fats to renew brain cell membranes without the adverse effects of reducing cellular respiration. Healthy, clean brain cell membranes will reduce angiotensin, which reduces cortisol and calcium toxicity, providing relief to the heart and kidneys.

Only the brain needs the EFAs, otherwise it is still important to limit fatty acid liberation from the liver, in order to limit potential oxidative stress from the roaming fats that are not burned for ATP by poorly functioning mitochondria.

Phospholipid exchange clears my brain fog right up, along with 2000mg/day l-carnitine. Hemp oil itself has the closest ratio for brain cells.

Only when brain ATP is restored will the kidneys, heart and liver feel relief. Airways should open up, and anxiety should reduce.

Alcar is most often recommended by people who advise to increase the transport of burning of fats.

Actually, acetyl version of carnitine, I have read, and in my experience, is not the same as carnitine. Acetyl is primarily for the brain, whereas l-carnitine should burn fats and raise ATP in all the organs. Remember, ATP is crucial for the liver methylation, which, when angiotensin is reduced, will start producing the antioxidants glutathione again and remethylate homocysteine to produce heart-healthy nutrients such as more carnitine.

While alcar for the brain might sound good given what I've said, it is important to remember that ATP is provided sufficiently by the liver and heart, as the brain itself has a very limited capacity to produce and store ATP itself (consumes 20% but produces 2%) Most of the brain's ATP comes from having healthy myelin sheath and oxygenated blood, from healthy kidneys.

So we need the standard version of l-carnitine to boost ATP throughout the body.

The point of taking l-carnitine is that it's more effective in the liver and heart. Once methylation gets off the ground, carnitine is a by product, so the correct processes become self sustaining.

Acetyl carnitine makes me anxious, l-carnitine works very well. I was a little annoyed people recommend the acetyl version so often when it's actions are not the same in my experience.

My dietary calcium intake is negligible. Magnesium and mitochondrial output limit calcium and cortisol problems. I eat stone age meat and veg diet. Sugar, like the EFAs, should only be used strategically in my view, and only when your cells are efficiently producing ATP via ketogenesis, in order to prevent low blood sugar and increase LDL cholesterol for pregnenolone.

I have come to the conclusion that it is best to become a fat burner for ATP, but use sugar to limit ACTH and cortisol, which increases pregnenolone. Mitchondrial DNA is from your mothers side and I can say with some certainty my mother is NOT a sugar burner. I don't think you can alter DNA in this manner. So my diet is ketogenic. Sugar is also troublesome in relation to SIBO and fermentation generating lactic acid when your cells are very low in generating ATP.

I restored TSH by a ketogenic diet to yield increased ATP. Low ATP, whether regional or systemic, is the root of all degeneration. Ketogenesis blocks out all problems with glucose and lactic acid. Limit fatty acid liberation from the liver, efficiently burn the ones that are liberated to generate ATP, and keep cell membrane fats healthy. Use sugar sparingly only during incidences of increased stress on the adrenals.

As mentioned earlier, mitochondrial DNA is based on your mother. So it might be interesting to look back over her diet and how long she lived, body composition etc. I've done this with my mother and she's most suited to burning fats efficiently through a lower number of mitochondria.

Also, my grandmother had kidney failure, so I know that potentially some glucose enzymes I have inherited are deficient. The kidneys when weak will prefer a highly efficient ketogenic state and sodium retention over high cortisol and poor glucose control/insulin sensitivity any day.

The three nutrients most deficient in kidney disease are zinc, magnesium, selenium, zinc being crucial for insulin sensitivity. So if you have genetic kidney problems my view is that you will have insulin and therefore sugar problems. So I cut all that risk out with a ketogenic stone age diet.

What is set in stone is that fat burning is the most direct way of generating ATP. This is fact. The issues occur because fatty acids readily increase stress on the liver when unused for ATP.

But again I revert to my theory that while we should limit fatty acid liberation, the main issue is not whether to burn fats, it's whether our cells ARE ABLE TO burn fats EFFICIENTLY. The heart loves burning fats. Again this is fact.

Cell maintenance is performed by the process of methylation, driven by ATP. Methylation is diverted to ammonia when brain, and only brain, ATP is dwindling. Finally, high histamine is highly stimulatory to cortisol, and inhibitory to the effects/benefits of adrenaline. This can also factor into the calcium influx of undermethylation. Remethylation needs strong sodium potassium pumps.

Ketogenesis is energy intensive but efficient. I seem to have got the balance right. The best thing for sleep isn't carbohydrate, it's intracellular magnesium. P5P is needed for magnesium entry. EFAs are needed to keep cell membranes permeable, along with sodium and potassium. Hence the importance of taking sodium and keeping cell membranes the right consistency and protected against the excess liberation of oxidized fatty acids by diligent use of carbohydrates and sugar around exercise and sleep. if sugar keeps you awake rather than asleep, you aren't burning enough fat. If you get the ratios right you don't need to rely on sugar so much and can metabolise fats.

Sugar is important to limit the stress response, I feel fats should be burned for oxidative metabolism. A fatty liver is not something to aspire to, nor is a fermenting gut or zinc deficiency. Sugar ensures that liver glutathione isn't excessively consumed when excessive fatty acids, unused for ATP, become rancid.

Keep your cell membranes happy, get the magnesium in, lock it with sodium. Excess calcium is caused by cortisol and de-energised cells, not by a lack of dietary calcium. Use sugar to limit possible oxidative stress from any fatty acids that exceed the ATP capacity of your mitochondria and deplete your liver.

I have suggested a combined approach where sugar limits fatty acid liberation and adrenal hormones, while promoting healthy ketogenesis and cell membrane ion pumps.

The heart is primarily a fat burner, and the brain is made up of EFAs, choline and cholesterol. Not protein or sugar.

I think that BMR should be sustained using ketogenesis. Sugar should be consumed during or after fasted states in order to throttle excessive use of the tyrosine-adrenaline pathway.

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114331 what kind of supporting evidence are you looking for?

I read all his posts. He presented a theory about the importance of methylation and how to support it.
I expect that he probably does know more about the methylation processes than I do, and have no objection to him presenting some of that. However, whenever he's been asked about where he get's his ideas from he acts indignant and makes a point about how much research he's done, but refuses to point to any of it.

Sure the OP's talked about zinc, and Mg, and B vits, the importance of brain energy and the health and fuction of vital organs. Peat also says these are important. I don't think that means the other parts [edit:] shouldn't be challenged. His approach to improving these conflicts in several ways with Peat's writing.

Even if some of that about methylation is accurate, it doesn't follow that this overrides Peat's important evidence about the dangers of PUFAs, the difficulties with a very high meat protein and lowish carb diet, or the structure of cells. He doesn't address any of these contradictions at all. If he were writing this somewhere else, there would probably not be an expectation that he engage with Peat's ideas. Here there is.

Purpose of forum:

This forum is for members interested in learning about and discussing Dr. Ray Peat's ideas, as presented in his writing and interviews, and in helping each other to think about how we can apply these ideas in our own lives.

app.php/rules#about
Part of this is not confusing newcomers about what Peat's ideas are.
Anyone who wants a forum with a different purpose is free to start one. There have been less moderated forums. Some of them died. I don't know if there are any currently.

 

[extremecheddar]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

Has anyone gave the phospholipid exchange a go yet? I know a few said they were gonna try it.

 

[Tarmander]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

I am not totally caught up on all the posts in this thread, but I want to add some things. I think this quote from Peat is relevant:

"One silly image that has been perpetuated by schools and textbooks is that biochemistry consists of chemical reactions that occur in substances dissolved in water, and that the water is retained by cells because they are enclosed by an oily membrane, and because of the osmotic forces produced by the dissolved substances. Most grade school kids have seen an osmometer made from an egg, in which the egg causes a column of water to rise, and have heard the explanation that this has something to do with the way cells work. Membrane pumps are invoked to explain the differences in solute concentrations and "osmotic pressure" inside and outside cells. The story is that invisible things on the surface of a cell (in its "membrane") force dissolved molecules to move in ways that they wouldn't move spontaneously by diffusion, and that water passively follows the "actively transported" solutes. But the evidence shows that both water and its solutes are regulated by the bulk phase of the cell, not its surface."

and

"If all the substances that are said to be "actively transported" by pumps into, or out of, cells are considered, the amount of energy required to operate the pumps is at least 15 times larger than the total energy available to cells. "Specific" pumps are commonly invoked even for novel synthetic chemicals, to explain their unequal distribution, inside and outside cells. In many biological situations water is ignored, but when it becomes an issue, its distribution is usually mechanistically subordinated to the solutes that are actively "pumped.""

I am very open to Hemp oil being useful in some context. In fact when I worked at a health food store for a couple years, there were a couple people I knew who used hemp oil in their cancer treatment and got good results. Perhaps there is something about that oil that sets it apart, I am not sure. However explaining its benefit through phospholipid exchange and the membrane theory is just a total non-starter for me. If you are making a case that hemp oil is beneficial, that is fine. But you must address Ling and you must address the criticisms of PUFA made in Haidut's thread. The only reason this thread has gone on for so long is because these issues have been glossed over.

 

[narouz]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114339 Has anyone gave the phospholipid exchange a go yet? I know a few said they were gonna try it.

Yeah...
reminds me of some neighbors of mine a while back
who said they were gonna try to swim the Strid river....
I've always wondered how that went,
but...haven't seen 'em around....

 

[tara]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

@Tarmander - nice relevant quotes.

 

[Nicholas]

Understanding ketogenesis, mitochondria and ATP production

post 114336

post 114331 what kind of supporting evidence are you looking for?

I read all his posts. He presented a theory about the importance of methylation and how to support it.
I expect that he probably does know more about the methylation processes than I do, and have no objection to him presenting some of that. However, whenever he's been asked about where he get's his ideas from he acts indignant and makes a point about how much research he's done, but refuses to point to any of it.

Sure the OP's talked about zinc, and Mg, and B vits, the importance of brain energy and the health and fuction of vital organs. Peat also says these are important. I don't think that means the other parts should be challenged. His approach to improving these conflicts in several ways with Peat's writing.

Even if some of that about methylation is accurate, it doesn't follow that this overrides Peat's important evidence about the dangers of PUFAs, the difficulties with a very high meat protein and lowish carb diet, or the structure of cells. He doesn't address any of these contradictions at all. If he were writing this somewhere else, there would probably not be an expectation that he engage with Peat's ideas. Here there is.

Purpose of forum:

This forum is for members interested in learning about and discussing Dr. Ray Peat's ideas, as presented in his writing and interviews, and in helping each other to think about how we can apply these ideas in our own lives.

https://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/app.php/rules#about
Part of this is not confusing newcomers about what Peat's ideas are.
Anyone who wants a forum with a different purpose is free to start one. There have been less moderated forums. Some of them died. I don't know if there are any currently.

there is no study which defines the perfect diet for everyone (i know you know this, but what you write suggests that you expect this out of kineticz). i've never heard Peat saying that the diet should be low animal protein or moderate to high carb. everyone is targeting in on kineticz's diet as if that's the conclusion of everything he's shared. the phospholipid exchange seems strange (and DEFINITELY strange longterm)....but the information he shared on EFAs and brain composition and brain energy was interesting. I don't believe that PUFA is bad for you in food form and i don't think the science has scratched the surface on how PUFA in food interacts in the body (but i'm not a scientist, have no interest in being one, nor do i think it's necessary to have a study to arrive at conclusions). I know people will say they agree with this, but with everything they write they show they don't: but studies prove nothing.

I agree that any healthy organization needs moderators, but the how of moderation is the issue..... there are many many things here which are not directly a copy and paste of Peat's ideas. This environment is not really geared to giving newcomers a solid foundation in Peat's ideas....a lot of things here are just people discussing things of interest or talking about health problems. or people acting like they are practitioners and recommending thyroid at every turn or a litany of vitamins (never lacking niacinamide!) I think it would be incredibly confusing receiving a lot of "lower this hormone, increase this" and not often there being a physiological back to it. whereas, in this situation, kineticz took 12 pages of replies and fully explained his thoughts with body processes, etc. only because people were asking questions or joining in on the discussion. that's more of a learning experience than allowing free-reign of just anyone to give diet change recommendations to a person who is wrecked mentally and physically. you can't control people desiring to learn. KNCTZ's post is more pro-Peat than it is counter-Peat....and for the situations where it is counter-Peat he at least EXPLAINS that it is so. Because he respects Peat.

there could probably be some fine-tuning on the ask for help and advice part of the forum. one needs A LOT of info. on a person before they even begin to suggest anything. So many people here could head down the wrong path because one person mentioned something without knowing a certain detail about their situation. Has that not been a strong trend in these circles is many people not getting better or getting worse? There's a deep flaw in the "let's interpret Peat's work into a healing method" system that is now well-established.