Why You Stay Slimmer More Easily With Olive Oil Than With Saturated Fats

[CLASH]

I've been thinking a lot about your comments on milk recently. I think you hit on some potential problems with milk (and to be fair, even Peat has an entire article on potential problems with milk, while offering some solutions).

One thing I was thinking about with milk specifically is that it could indirectly cause digestion issues by neutralizing stomach acid. A high amount of calcium (an alkaline mineral) in a lot of liquid could dramatically raise stomach pH, and possibly let a far amount of undigested food travel down the GI track. I think the calcium itself can cause problems in the intestine as well. The worst constipation I ever had in my life was when trying the all milk diet. It happened after a three days on the diet, and without going to TMI, I was getting worried I might need to seek medical help. Thankfully, it resolved, but was a worrying episode. I took three long acting oxycodone tablets over 3 days after a surgery, and while they where also a bit constipating, it was nothing like the milk diet attempt. I did discontinue them, as I got no pain relief, and didn't want to tempt consitpation further.

I would think yogurt and kefir could also cause similar GI issues, but that might be more to do with higher lactic acid content.

Regardless, I'm dropping most dairy (save butter, cream, and some cheese) for a few months to see what happens.

Sounds good man, let me know how it goes.

As for your calcium statements I used supplemental calcium for a while (calcium carbonate) and it actually causes some digestive issue for me that I attributed to a buffering of stomach acid. I was taking the calcium in juice during my meals to try to balance out my calcium:phosphorous ratio. So basically I agree with your POV.


I've mentioned this before but I also got very constipated on the milk diet, even with A2 milk and goat milk. I used quick acting oxycodone after I had my gallbladder removed, only 1/2 a tablet one time, and it constipated me for 2 days. To be fair though I think my body is very sensitive to opiates, even the opiates in rice produce a noticeable effect for me. I think other peoples mileages with these foods may vary.

Yogurt and cheese are almost all casein. They actually have the strongest effect on me, opiate wise. I do love cheese tho, its the one food I would add to my diet if I could tolerate it better. A nice pecorino romano and an aged cheddar would be nice. I'd be eating cheese steaks (cheddar cheese melted on a flank steak, no bread of course) everyday. My boy eats cheddar cheese omelets everyday and my envy is real strong lol.

 

[CLASH]

On the flip side, I haven't seen many people in their 20s write something as well thought out and useful as this-

Clinical Context To Ray's Theoretical Context

Lol I forgot about this post. I still agree with a lot of the info in there, but I have modified a few points over time. I think its expected though, it was 3 years ago.

 

[Auslander]

So you have tried the paradigm I often discuss?

Considering that you are saying that this forum is full of people who have also tried the paradigm I discussed and are fat and blame Peat, I would venture to guess that you actually haven't tried the paradigm I discuss. Here's why:
1) The paradigm I discuss is different from Peat's paradigm, so if people are blaming Peat then they are most likely trying the paradigm Peat discusses. I have gone at length all over the forum as to why I think Peat's paradigm causes weight gain. Despite your musings on age, at 20 I went from 175lbs to 215lbs or so using Peat's paradigm, so while I do think age plays a part for sure, I think you are overblowing its importance by alot.
2) The paradigm I discuss has not been widely followed on this forum and as far as I'm aware there is yet to be anyone who has come forward and said "I tried the paradigm CLASH talks about and I got fat".
3) Contrary to your opinion, there are quite a bit of older people eating paleo without eating keto, on paleo forums all over the internet losing significant amounts of weight. The diet I talk about is essentially a Paleo template constructed with Peat's principles and some other research/ experiences I have gone through.

I find it interesting that you came to the forum with an unsubstantiated opinion and when given the opportunity to substantiate decide to offer up "general rules", without providing any support for your opinion. You might as well have gone to a pro-Bernie Sanders forum and said "Trump is the best" and then justified your argument as a general rule that anyone who believes in Bernie is unqualified to vote... (I have no political affiliation, just an analogy)

More and more opinions without any substantiation. What constitutes an insane amount of fat? What constitutes an insane amount of sugar? It seems you have some presuppositions in place that I dont think you fully understand i.e. a standard model of calories in/ calories out, the idea that a calorie is a calorie, and the Randle cycle.

Caloric surplus? I've never called for people to be in a caloric surplus, especially to lose weight. At most I questioned the general understanding of calories in/ calories out.

Here's the deal man, I will put my money where my mouth is. On a separate thread (so we don't clog up this one) we can go over a sample diet based on your metrics, I will lay everything out. Follow it for a month, or better yet 2 weeks to start, if you get fat or anything like that, you have your proof. In the meantime people will be able to see the process, as I will help to modulate things to your specific context as we go. At the end of the period we will see if your age theory makes as much difference as you think. I'd prefer results to speak for themselves

If you really mean it Clash and it doesnt involve monetary exchange, id be interested.

 

[chrismturner89]

Too much saturated fats also seem to push me into too high DHT. What monounsaturates and other foods do you strategically use to counteract this? Im very interested in the diet paradigm you mention.

I did not claim that it was anti-androgenic. I claimed that, in my experience, it is less androgenic than the animal fats.

It actually supports my choices perfectly. I'm using oleic acid specifically to mitigate what seems to be too high DHT. Haidut recently posted on his blog studies discussing lipid saturation in relation to saturation of steroid. There has also been previous discussion of requiring non-fully saturated steroids like DHEA in combination with fully saturated steroids like androsterone or DHT to induce muscular anabolism. I've been playing around with intakes of saturated and monounsaturated fats to see thier effects physiologically in this context. Excess amounts of fully saturated fats push me to, what seems like, too high DHT expression. Adding in some monounsaturated fats seem to help moderate those effects to some extent while avoiding "estrogenicity". Playing around with too many things that have purported aromatase inhibiting effects gives me similar symptoms to running, what seems like, too high DHT.

I did not state that I dont use coconut oil because it has a less androgenic effect. I merely added that in as an experiential side note. Another interesting note for this discussion is that coconut oil seems to preserve my hair. If your interested, my main reason for avoiding it is the drying effect it seems to produce in my joints.

As for the questionable nature of the assays, have you seen studies showing contrary effects of the fatty acids in coconut oil on 5AR? In my opinion, just because there are questionable effects of PUFA, doesn't automatically imply that the same effects occur with medium chain saturated fats.

 

[CLASH]

If you really mean it Clash and it doesnt involve monetary exchange, id be interested.

No monetary exchange man, for free. The only caveat is, I need you to be straight up with me. Its possible you could entirely ignore everything I post on here and do whatever and make it seem as if you got no results.

Too much saturated fats also seem to push me into too high DHT. What monounsaturates and other foods do you strategically use to counteract this? Im very interested in the diet paradigm you mention.

I've been using a mix of beef tallow, butter and macadamia nut oil. Despite being a bit pricey, the macadmia nut oil has only about 2% PUFA, so its almost as low as coconut oil. Since it is monounsaturated I just dont cook with it, I add it to my meal after its been cooked. I use butter and beef tallow to cook with. Beef tallow for the stearic acid and butter for other saturated fats and to keep PUFA low as butter has less PUFA as a percentage than beef tallow.

EDIT: and butter tastes amazing of course, cant forget that lol.

 

[chrismturner89]

No monetary exchange man, for free. The only caveat is, I need you to be straight up with me. Its possible you could entirely ignore everything I post on here and do whatever and make it seem as if you got no results.



I've been using a mix of beef tallow, butter and macadamia nut oil. Despite being a bit pricey, the macadmia nut oil has only about 2% PUFA, so its almost as low as coconut oil. Since it is monounsaturated I just dont cook with it, I add it to my meal after its been cooked. I use butter and beef tallow to cook with. Beef tallow for the stearic acid and butter for other saturated fats and to keep PUFA low as butter has less PUFA as a percentage than beef tallow.

EDIT: and butter tastes amazing of course, cant forget that lol.

I also eat a lot of butter, it's my primary fat. I also cook in cocoa butter sometimes. I will add macadamia nut oil and report back. What else do you eat? What are your general energy levels like and libido?

 

[CLASH]

I also eat a lot of butter, it's my primary fat. I also cook in cocoa butter sometimes. I will add macadamia nut oil and report back. What else do you eat? What are your general energy levels like and libido?

Meat, seafood, saturated/ monounsaturated fat sources, fruit, 100% juice, carrots

Energy levels are good. To give you some type of metric I workout 3-4x per week with weights (1 day on, 1 day off) and train MMA about 3x per week as well. Also go on daily walks in the sun now that I moved out of the north and stopped working as a nurse on night shift lol. I've gotten much more active since I changed jobs/ locations.

As far as libido, I'd say its pretty high, although contextually. When my girl is here its like a 3-5x a day type of deal. When she's gone its not too distracting to my life.

The only issue with the diet is my inability to put on much weight. I get stronger but I still stay at a thin 175-180 at 6'2".

 

[Auslander]

No monetary exchange man, for free. The only caveat is, I need you to be straight up with me. Its possible you could entirely ignore everything I post on here and do whatever and make it seem as if you got no results.

Sounds good. Im very disciplined, which i think makes me a good lab rat. That said however, i'm not fat. Or even overweight. Im 6'7" and weigh exactly 200 pounds. That is 26 pounds lighter than i was in April of last year. I balooned up after following Peat diet for about 4 years.

I still eat Peat, but separate any fatty meals from carbs. Thats what made me drop those 26 pounds. I still eat the same things i did before, i just dont eat fat with carbs. Religiously. I should say i go light on fat in general. 2 eggs every day with a heaping tablespoon of coconut oil. And a tenderloin steak about twice a week. Thats all the fat I eat. I eat 1.6 pounds of cottage cheese/quark every day, but its always near zero fat (0.5% fat).

My sole problem is gaining muscle mass, which i have a hard time doing, even though i work out hard 2 times a week. Reading above youre also having a hard time putting weight, even though in my opinion from the pics you posted you look pretty muscular.

So in light of the above - what would i gain from following your regiment?

I look way more muscular in this picture than i really am. Also, im 44.

 

[chrismturner89]

Meat, seafood, saturated/ monounsaturated fat sources, fruit, 100% juice, carrots

Energy levels are good. To give you some type of metric I workout 3-4x per week with weights (1 day on, 1 day off) and train MMA about 3x per week as well. Also go on daily walks in the sun now that I moved out of the north and stopped working as a nurse on night shift lol. I've gotten much more active since I changed jobs/ locations.

As far as libido, I'd say its pretty high, although contextually. When my girl is here its like a 3-5x a day type of deal. When she's gone its not too distracting to my life.

The only issue with the diet is my inability to put on much weight. I get stronger but I still stay at a thin 175-180 at 6'2".

Sounds great to me. So no grains or starch whatsoever? How long have you been eating like this?

 

[berk]

Sounds great to me. So no grains or starch whatsoever? How long have you been eating like this?

If Clash had a penny for every time someone ask this question... haha

 

[RWilly]

Not to discount your own personal experience, which I believe is genuine, but you should understand by now that your regiment is useless for 95 percent of people. Those 95 percent will and do gain massive weight if they follow your approach. I would go as far as say that you’re lean in spite of what you eat, not thanks to it. People that imitate that get fat. Period. You’re a one-off, and what you give is not a sound advice. High fat and high carbs will lead to fat gain for majority of population. I don’t understand why you keep pushing it on and on like you don’t see what it does to everyone else.

If you really mean it Clash and it doesnt involve monetary exchange, id be interested.

I for one would be interested in hearing how that goes.

 

[CLASH]

Sounds great to me. So no grains or starch whatsoever? How long have you been eating like this?

Nah man, I keep trying to add them in to put on a little weight, but they don't make me feel as good. They slow me down compared to the diet I've been eating.

I've been eating this way for about 2-3 years now. I still experiment with different foods to see the effects and too keep learning but I've had my baseline as this for a while.

 

[CLASH]

@Auslander

I attached a picture of my current physique, as I'm not sure of the pic your referencing. I just took the pic right now, so this is pretty much my resting state. I think its feasible to get most guys to where I'm at, maybe a little less, maybe a little more, depending on your bodies predisposition. This is obviously assuming their training and diet are on point.

What I would be providing you:
-A basic individualized dietary template based on your context incorporating the principles that I have found to work. It will take a little while to iron out all the variables as we work together but thats part of any process.

-Considering you want to put on muscle, I can take a look at your current program and we can work on it a bit if necessary.

-These are the speculative benefits because I dont really know your current baseline but:
•Increased muscle mass
•Increased energy
•Easily maintain your weight without micromanaging too much
•Improvements in digestion if you've been having issues

-Lastly, you get to vindicate your opinions if I'm indeed wrong.

 

[Auslander]

@CLASH help me understand though, why would you do it?

Yeah, that picture is awesome.

 

[CLASH]

@CLASH help me understand though, why would you do it?

Yeah, that picture is awesome.

Because I want to prove to the forum that the paradigm I discuss works. Plus, I can add another war story to my chest, to continually prove to myself that my ideas work.

Also, I see a lot of BS on the internet, and I want to dispel it for people to help clear out the clutter and get to what works empirically.

I enjoy seeing people get results/ get better and I also like forming valuable relationships with people by adding value to peoples lives.

 

[Auslander]

Alright. So what do i do?

 

[CLASH]

Alright. So what do i do?

See the new thread I made

 

[Indicatrice]

Sounds good. Im very disciplined, which i think makes me a good lab rat. That said however, i'm not fat. Or even overweight. Im 6'7" and weigh exactly 200 pounds. That is 26 pounds lighter than i was in April of last year. I balooned up after following Peat diet for about 4 years.

I still eat Peat, but separate any fatty meals from carbs. Thats what made me drop those 26 pounds. I still eat the same things i did before, i just dont eat fat with carbs. Religiously. I should say i go light on fat in general. 2 eggs every day with a heaping tablespoon of coconut oil. And a tenderloin steak about twice a week. Thats all the fat I eat. I eat 1.6 pounds of cottage cheese/quark every day, but its always near zero fat (0.5% fat).

My sole problem is gaining muscle mass, which i have a hard time doing, even though i work out hard 2 times a week. Reading above youre also having a hard time putting weight, even though in my opinion from the pics you posted you look pretty muscular.

So in light of the above - what would i gain from following your regiment?

I look way more muscular in this picture than i really am. Also, im 44.

View attachment 16746

You are 44!? I would have guess less than 30 from that pic, good stuff.

 

[Auslander]

You are 44!? I would have guess less than 30 from that pic, good stuff.

Thanks man but photography is one of the most deceptive communication tools. Angle and lightning my friend. I'll put a more realistic shot in Clash's other thread soon.

 

[taralynne]

I havent experienced butter causing weight gain. But I have seen milk cause weight gain. I dont think the fat composition of butter is that different from milk. I do think that milk has a whole host of other components that can easily cause weight gain (which is the entire purpose of milk in the first place lol).

Milk made me fat, while butter with beef tallow has made me excessively lean (so much so that I had to add some MUFA from macadmia nut oil to put on some weight...)

I have gained a ton of weight since finding RP. Before this I followed a mostly vegetarian diet for 20 years with occasional fish, then mostly Paleo & AIP for a few months here & there. I was so happy to find RP & be done with super restrictive diets. As much as I found that I really love dairy I think I need to reduce/eliminate it as much as possible to see if I can get the scale to go back down but I absolutely enjoy my daily coffee and don't want to give that up. I tried replacing the milk with cacao butter but it kind of ruined coffee for me. If I gave up milk & cheese but kept either half & half or cream for coffee do you think that would be ok?