The Libertarian Philosophy

[Kyle M]

Anyone who looks through this thread can see the flaws have been pointed out to libertarianism yet you are still determined to promote this view,your desperate to manipulate people Kyle,why don't you come out and say it,you want to control others,you have no interest in their desires just yours,libertarianism is an intellectual authoritarians dream.

I'm comfortable with the idea of people reading this thread and weighing the comparative merits of both of our arguments.

 

[Drareg]

I think if your kid runs away, there's a problem prior to the event. Kids just don't run away. I actually ran away from my father once because we had a horrible relationship. It wasn't due to me pursuing the greener grass; it was because the grass at home was brown and charred.

If one advocates abortion for the rights of the mother, then I don't believe a child market is all that controversial, particularly for orphans. Again, you can't have these two concepts; children are either sovereign entities, or they're property (whether of the state, commune, or individual). If the child is sovereign, then he has to agree which parent he likes. If the child is property, then the parent gets to choose, similar to picking a dog in a kennel. Obviously with the latter example, there exists appointed temporary guardians, and this would occur anyway.

Either you advocate an individual's right to abort the child, or you place positive obligations on that individual (or the community, which is made up of other individuals) to raise the child. In the latter case, what if the individual does not comply and refuses to support the child. You're left with options of prison, exile, or death.
That's ad hominem, but regardless, women tend to vote democrat because of their evolved social strategy (more communal), while men tend to vote more republican given the same sample. Certain cultures also vote more communal, as in for larger states, welfare, and authority.

Here's some examples:

Source: economywatch.com

Wages inversely correlate with political affiliation. Groups with lower incomes vote for bigger government and more communalization of wealth, as they benefit from these. The exception lies with the Asian community, which represents an interesting cultural background; they're collectivist, particularly within their own families, but also to the state, but they have high working intelligence. Their culture is quite interesting, for me at least.

It's not ad hominem Dave when there is a question mark,I was inquiring if anyone can see this pattern amongst certain members of the forum mainly a some white and some Asian guys who claimed genetic superiority is real yet provided the most lame argument I have seen on the rpf.com, many of them subscribe to stefan molyneaux and are desperate to sound superior.

Lower income groups vote less,does this chart take that into account?
I pointed this about before about Asian culture,there is an authoritarian extremely strict culture of shame in some Asian cultures,this carries over into Asian Americans also in some cases,it's almost a reductionist/robotic mentality pushed upon children to succeed at all costs. It breeds rigidity,autistic like behaviour.
The cost of this is an extremely high suicide rate,depressions and socials stigmas that even those who live there feel so they leave.
Essentially Asian kids are put under immense pressure.

Your bigger fallllacy and something the libertarian fanatics do is defining succes based on income/money,the libertarians and psychopaths like Stefan molyneaux frame charts like the above to appear significant,by libertarians standards the Asians could be manipulating monopolising via the evil big government libertarians want gone. No,no it's laissez faire,ignore the collectivism comment.
Collectivism is essentially a monopoly ,rofl,molyneaux uses this angle also ?no?Libertarians are using this argument!
It's just contradiction after contardiction.

In relation to the kids issue,my point was the kid is living in a society where anything goes,the kids mind is a platform for anything,it will require sensational full time parenting to make sure they are not influenced by what is around them,you may as well keep them inside.
Kids do just run away,one slight issue with kids in their teens and they want out,the emotions of kids can be explosive,with knowledge that they own themselves so to speak they have the potential to act on it.

The community does not have to look after the child in libertarianism,it has no obligation to,the kid then potentially does what ever it takes to survive,steal food etc.
You dodged the difficult questions I asked about kids and libertarianism,you created easier questions to answer.....

In relation to a broader definition of success stupid questions can be asked, why is it in general Asian people can't sing as well as black people? why do black people succeed more in sports than Asian,sweeping generalisation of course,Japanese karaoke bars are worth attending if you want to see my point,having a good singing voice can make you money,being athletic makes money therefore apply the following logic,increase sports teams and paid for signing events to the equivalent of current regular businesses we see,mainly businesses designed for pointless consumption and then re do the above charts,example-there are more restaurants than paid sports teams in the world. We don't necessarily need these restaurants,they are a luxury,sports teams the same.

The desperate genetic intelligence brigade are holding out that because we a have an underlying code they say can't change,separate to epigentics ,somehow in there we will find Asians and whites with bigger brains that can't be touched epigentically. Yet the above about singing and sports,environment shows the adaptability of the human organism based on what it repeatedly does as long as energy is provided to back increased adaptability. Being better at making money in what is mainly rigid uncreative roles bordering on autistic is seen as more intellegent/creative and bigger brain is required.rofl.

A bigger problem is the black and white thinking of libertarians, who say the underlying genetic code cannot potentially be changed for everyone,they want to imply that Asians and whites have a special code that black people cant get even though we have no evidence.....
Lol they criticise the Jewish for believing they are superior based on a book!!!
Libertarians are essentially religious,they have a book and want to close any further questions and enforce their rule,remember they will use force,it's their rule.

 

[Drareg]

I'm comfortable with the idea of people reading this thread and weighing the comparative merits of both of our arguments.

And it's a great way to get info on the topic of libertarianism.

 

[Kyle M]

And it's a great way to get info on the topic of libertarianism.

It's a way to get info on a number of topics.

 

[DaveFoster]

It's not ad hominem Dave when there is a question mark,I was inquiring if anyone can see this pattern amongst certain members of the forum mainly a some white and some Asian guys who claimed genetic superiority is real yet provided the most lame argument I have seen on the rpf.com, many of them subscribe to stefan molyneaux and are desperate to sound superior.

Lower income groups vote less,does this chart take that into account?
I pointed this about before about Asian culture,there is an authoritarian extremely strict culture of shame in some Asian cultures,this carries over into Asian Americans also in some cases,it's almost a reductionist/robotic mentality pushed upon children to succeed at all costs. It breeds rigidity,autistic like behaviour.
The cost of this is an extremely high suicide rate,depressions and socials stigmas that even those who live there feel so they leave.
Essentially Asian kids are put under immense pressure.

I agree; Asian culture does put a great deal of pressure on its children. This could be a partial reason for the lack of aggregate creativity among Asians: excessive linearity, progression, and so on.

Your bigger fallllacy and something the libertarian fanatics do is defining succes based on income/money,the libertarians and psychopaths like Stefan molyneaux frame charts like the above to appear significant,by libertarians standards the Asians could be manipulating monopolising via the evil big government libertarians want gone. No,no it's laissez faire,ignore the collectivism comment.
Collectivism is essentially a monopoly ,rofl,molyneaux uses this angle also ?no?Libertarians are using this argument!
It's just contradiction after contardiction.

Are you saying that socioeconomic success is not a good metric for determining a human's value to society? What would be a better metric?

In relation to the kids issue,my point was the kid is living in a society where anything goes,the kids mind is a platform for anything,it will require sensational full time parenting to make sure they are not influenced by what is around them,you may as well keep them inside.
Kids do just run away,one slight issue with kids in their teens and they want out,the emotions of kids can be explosive,with knowledge that they own themselves so to speak they have the potential to act on it.

The community does not have to look after the child in libertarianism,it has no obligation to,the kid then potentially does what ever it takes to survive,steal food etc.
You dodged the difficult questions I asked about kids and libertarianism,you created easier questions to answer.....

As a previously angry child, I can testify that trying to cage/control an angry child who feels out of control leads to severe psychological trauma and will eventually prompt homicidal, suicidal, and generally anti-social tendencies. Nothing makes someone's blood boil like feeling out of control, and then being patronized that they should feel this way.

In relation to a broader definition of success stupid questions can be asked, why is it in general Asian people can't sing as well as black people?

Asians can sing; Asian music is just in Chinese or Japanese. Japanese music is popular, while Chinese music is less popular. Both aren't in English; black "urban" music is in English, albeit with heavy ebonics.

why do black people succeed more in sports than Asian,sweeping generalisation of course,

The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by Jon Entine Africans have more fast-twitch muscle fibers.

Measures of body composition in blacks and whites: a comparative review

"In general, blacks have a greater bone mineral density and body protein content than do whites, resulting in a greater fat-free body density. Additionally, there are racial differences in the distribution of subcutaneous fat and the length of the limbs relative to the trunk."

Lol they criticise the Jewish for believing they are superior based on a book!!!

According to the traditional Jewish interpretation of the Bible, Israel's character as the chosen people is unconditional[not in citation given] as it says in Deuteronomy 14:2,

"For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth."
The Torah also says,

"Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me from all the peoples, for all the earth is mine" (Exodus 19:5).
God promises that he will never exchange his people with any other:

"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you." (Genesis 17:7).
Other Torah verses about chosenness,

• "And you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation" (Exodus 19:6).
• "The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people; but because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors." (Deuteronomy 7:7-8).

The obligation imposed upon the Israelites was emphasized by the prophet Amos (3:2):

"You only have I singled out of all the families of the earth: therefore will I visit upon you all your iniquities."

 

[Drareg]

Confess your sins @Kyle M ! Why do you hate dogs?!!
@Drareg , you have a real talent for getting to the truth of the situation!

We all know it I think,our cultures and the past are helpful but they can blind us to the potential of future.

The biggest problem worldwide is a lack of new ideas imo,ironically and in the spirit of Peats and others view thinking new ideas is energy sapping and people are exhausted all over the world.

 

[aquaman]

^^ Yes Peat says this in http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/william-blake.shtml

"Perception, combined with the discovery and invention of new patterns in the world, will be actively oriented toward the future, while the deductive, merely analytical, manner of thought will be tied to the past. "

"In a world that’s alive and developing, new knowledge is always possible, and imagination has the prophetic function of reporting the trends and processes of development, illuminating the paths toward the future. Reason is subordinate to invention and discovery."

Also relevant to previous discussion on this thread: "many horrors have been committed by people who have said that nature shouldn’t be “anthropomorphized,”"


This article I'd never read properly or at all until today (at least can't remember it). It's genuinely one of the most interesting things I've ever read.

 

[Drareg]

I agree; Asian culture does put a great deal of pressure on its children. This could be a partial reason for the lack of aggregate creativity among Asians: excessive linearity, progression, and so on.

Are you saying that socioeconomic success is not a good metric for determining a human's value to society? What would be a better metric?

In relation to the kids issue,my point was the kid is living in a society where anything goes,the kids mind is a platform for anything,it will require sensational full time parenting to make sure they are not influenced by what is around them,you may as well keep them inside.
Kids do just run away,one slight issue with kids in their teens and they want out,the emotions of kids can be explosive,with knowledge that they own themselves so to speak they have the potential to act on it.

As a previously angry child, I can testify that trying to cage/control an angry child who feels out of control leads to severe psychological trauma and will eventually prompt homicidal, suicidal, and generally anti-social tendencies. Nothing makes someone's blood boil like feeling out of control, and then being patronized that they should feel this way.

Asians can sing; Asian music is just in Chinese or Japanese. Japanese music is popular, while Chinese music is less popular. Both aren't in English; black "urban" music is in English, albeit with heavy ebonics.

The Story Behind the Amazing Success of Black Athletes, by Jon Entine Africans have more fast-twitch muscle fibers.

Measures of body composition in blacks and whites: a comparative review

"In general, blacks have a greater bone mineral density and body protein content than do whites, resulting in a greater fat-free body density. Additionally, there are racial differences in the distribution of subcutaneous fat and the length of the limbs relative to the trunk."



According to the traditional Jewish interpretation of the Bible, Israel's character as the chosen people is unconditional[not in citation given] as it says in Deuteronomy 14:2,

"For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth."
The Torah also says,

"Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me from all the peoples, for all the earth is mine" (Exodus 19:5).
God promises that he will never exchange his people with any other:

"And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you." (Genesis 17:7).
Other Torah verses about chosenness,

• "And you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation" (Exodus 19:6).
• "The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people; but because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors." (Deuteronomy 7:7-8).

The obligation imposed upon the Israelites was emphasized by the prophet Amos (3:2):

"You only have I singled out of all the families of the earth: therefore will I visit upon you all your iniquities."

We should be studying what in the environment caused black people to have more fast twitch muscle fibers and made this epigentic modification so strong to carry over for generations. Saying they chased large animals doesn't quite cut entirely for me,It's also an extremely hot environment which makes it tough so they needed to be tough.
If Asians do have bigger brains what does this say about their environment,one thing to note is their food culture goes back millennia,might not be peaty but it's calories and a respect for getting calories.
some might say the Asians got bigger brains because their big brain allowed them to farm rice and use better farming techniques,chicken and egg then,how did they get the big brain before farming etc environment much kinder in Asia.

Peat mentioned before an increase in growth hormone and other potentially protective measures in mildly malnourished and hypothyroid kids,causing growth spurts,this could apply on the African content for example,just thinking out loud obviously with al this.

Asians can sing and love to,they don't however churn out beyonces,Witney hesutons,women who are more suited to opera. The power and pitch of their voices would levitate an audience,the control of pitch is real intelligence imo,to do it with power is extremely difficult.
However they have the potential to do this because we see Asians sing opera,we see Asians win in athletics,just like we see intelligent black people.

Thanks for the scripture,the youth in Israel are not as passionate about all this compared to the elders,many of them loathe to believe they are a special race.

 

[Drareg]

^^ Yes Peat says this in Can art instruct science? William Blake as biological visionary

"Perception, combined with the discovery and invention of new patterns in the world, will be actively oriented toward the future, while the deductive, merely analytical, manner of thought will be tied to the past. "

"In a world that’s alive and developing, new knowledge is always possible, and imagination has the prophetic function of reporting the trends and processes of development, illuminating the paths toward the future. Reason is subordinate to invention and discovery."

Also relevant to previous discussion on this thread: "many horrors have been committed by people who have said that nature shouldn’t be “anthropomorphized,”"


This article I'd never read properly or at all until today (at least can't remember it). It's genuinely one of the most interesting things I've ever read.

That's where I get it from! There is loads more about this from other people too.
This is why he has no political view while energy levels are this warped worldwide,its a waste of energy to have those views.

The studies on lsd show it mainly allows people to forget the past see the moment but also project forward. There studies on here about that.

 

[aquaman]

I love that article - have read it already 5 times today and keep picking new things out :)

 

[luke gadget]

Semantics again here with your response,state and community very much comes down to interpretation,your fanaticism only let's you see big evil government.

Libertarianism will never be the rule when people like you support it,people through it,they know in their core it's possibly the worse system of all.
Your a textbook charlatan,the way you are promoting libertarianism shows this clearly,you dodge the majority of points put to you in particular the depraved aspect of society libertarianism will encourage without any accountability ,you speak with authority as if a society has existed with libertarianism,no society has existed.
An example you gave, Somalia but ignored the child rape epidemic there,this is where the depraved nature of libertarianism comes to the light on topics such as those yet all of you dodge them,even on your dogmatic mises website.
You may as well be a priest of libertarianism,your behaviour reflects that yet you mock the religious types on here.

Anyone who looks through this thread can see the flaws have been pointed out to libertarianism yet you are still determined to promote this view,your desperate to manipulate people Kyle,why don't you come out and say it,you want to control others,you have no interest in their desires just yours,libertarianism is an intellectual authoritarians dream.

"libertarianism is an intellectual authoritarians dream"

That pretty much sums it up I think.

Because of its abstraction, one can make ANY case. Just line up the tenets just so, and voilà! - Libertarianism agrees with you. Slavery is good - or bad. Child labor is fine - or not so much. Taxation is never allowed - except. Oh no NOT Somalia, and so on. Just depends on which explainer you talk to.

All fundamentalism is this way. People handle snakes because somebody interpreted the Bible just so. Abortion is bad - but also there are written instructions for it. Murder is bad - except when it's not. Caring for poor is good. Except. Rendering Unto Caesar - oops that's bad. Unless it's not. And so on. There are entire contradictory bodies of beliefs built on a series of self-serving and selective interpretations, and each set will insist they are the Only Possible Answer.

This also is my objection to "originalism" re the Constitution. To know what the Constitution "really" says apparently requires a cadre of priests (a la Scalia), who carefully select self-serving meanings and pass them on to their acolytes. Often these "original" interpretations are in direct contradiction to what the authors themselves said, and they all seem to magically validate some current political fad.

 

[Kyle M]

"libertarianism is an intellectual authoritarians dream"

That pretty much sums it up I think.

Because of its abstraction, one can make ANY case. Just line up the tenets just so, and voilà! - Libertarianism agrees with you. Slavery is good - or bad. Child labor is fine - or not so much. Taxation is never allowed - except. Oh no NOT Somalia, and so on. Just depends on which explainer you talk to.

Could you please make the libertarian case to me for slavery.

 

[aquaman]

These are for Kyle in relation to his views on environmentalists - posted from @jag2594

I think we have to start seeing jobs in resource-extraction as an index of poverty, to the extent that they degrade the biosphere. A definition of wealth must consider both quantity and quality of production. Environmentalists and ecologists have to do some intelligent thinking about economics, so they can help the people in power to think more realistically.

The greatest fraud now current in the mass media is the idea that we must choose between the health of our environ-ment and the vitality of the economy or our standard of living.

 

[luke gadget]

Could you please make the libertarian case to me for slavery.

I've heard Libertarians make that case, using arguments that made zero sense to me - so how could I make that case (assuming I even wanted to)? Something along the lines of each person is free to choose, and the slave could theoretically choose not to be a slave - but really don't use what I said, since I'm just long-distance paraphrasing

But you're underlining the problem: anyone can say anything, and justify it using logical arguments, when you base your philosophy on oversimplified abstractions. You argue (properly) that slavery is not appropriate, another argues that it is. Apparently Libertarianism supports both conclusions.

 

[Kyle M]

I've heard Libertarians make that case, using arguments that made zero sense to me - so how could I make that case (assuming I even wanted to)? Something along the lines of each person is free to choose, and the slave could theoretically choose not to be a slave - but really don't use what I said, since I'm just long-distance paraphrasing

But you're underlining the problem: anyone can say anything, and justify it using logical arguments, when you base your philosophy on oversimplified abstractions. You argue (properly) that slavery is not appropriate, another argues that it is. Apparently Libertarianism supports both conclusions.

If someone incorrectly uses a paradigm, or fails to use it at all but simply says they are using it, that does not invalidate the paradigm. If someone makes a mistake in a mathematical proof and comes to an incorrect conclusion, that does not invalidate the mathematical techniques of the proof.

By the way, that is probably the best argument for slavery, but voluntary slavery is a contradiction in terms so it's kind of a silly discussion to have. But think on the alternative, using violent force to deny someone the right to sell themselves or volunteer to be a slave? If they cannot make that choice, much like if someone is forcefully prevented from being able to end their own life, do they own their life? If not, what is ownership?

I'm sorry that you have read some bad philosophy from people on the internet claiming to be libertarians, and that you haven't read the classic works of libertarianism in order to round out your perspective, but that really has nothing to do with libertarianism and everything to do with your individual ignorance. And I mean that in the least offensive way possible, to be unaware of the foundational tenets and arguments of the paradigm, much like a doctor dismissive of a Ray Peat idea is ignorant of some of the science that is suppressed in medical schools in favor of other science.

 

[luke gadget]

I'm not offended. The problem is that very contradictory view points are presented from self-described "experts". I don't know but perhaps I could go to some other forum and have a pro-slavery guy say the same thing about you. Personally I prefer your analysis by far - and granted perhaps I have yet to find a compelling analysis. So I'll just defer to my ignorance and shrug haha.

 

[Kyle M]

There's nothing holding you back from reading the classic literature. Most of it is available for free in audio form on YouTube. Read Marx too, why not?

 

[Luann]

Are you saying the greatest wrongs ever committed in society were the spread of misinformation? What kind of misinformation, and was it the spreading of the information that was the problem or violence occurring because of it?

Not necessarily, but misinformation and deception are very hurtful things that mess up lives. Think about people who hurt their health through Paleo or the fast food pattern that came from thinking peanut oil or soy oil were better than beef tallow for frying and grilling.

 

[Kyle M]

Not necessarily, but misinformation and deception are very hurtful things that mess up lives. Think about people who hurt their health through Paleo or the fast food pattern that came from thinking peanut oil or soy oil were better than beef tallow for frying and grilling.

How has the institution of the state prevented or helped with things like that? Maybe not having the state would cause greater personal accountability through the market, ie more Angie's List (direct consumer feedback on services), less government permission slips (AMA, FDA, accredited college)?

You could say that natural disasters are the worst things happening to humans, but that is neither here nor there when determining the best interpersonal system for society. Although even there, the market-oriented nations tend to recover quickly, and even send tremendous financial and logistical aid, to the less market-oriented nations during natural disasters. Think Haiti, earthquakes and tsunamis in the 3rd world, who was/is sending them help, North Korea or South Korea, USSR or USA?

 

[Luann]

@Kyle M the state has helped the evil along by buckling under ag. lobbyists, taking too much of an interest in "health" (crappy school lunches, Michelle Obama), THE FOOD PYRAMID.

all that aside this information is very helpful though, Libertarianism is a word that gets thrown around, not too many people know what it is!