Peat Supports Anarchism (Talking With Ray Peat #3: The Origins Of Authoritarianism)

[jaguar43]

Then it must be that way. If people desire to be wealthy and still strive to be so in this system then the desire is innate regardless of its consequence.
The wealthy want to keep it, the enslaved strive to be the same.

If the desire to be wealthy was innate. Then everyone would strive to be wealthy. There are many cases of people who don't so it can't be true.

I really don't know what that is suppose to prove though. That people have an innate desire to be rich so thats the justification of capitalism and wage labor ? Thats a real degraded way of looking at human nature. Even if there was evidence for it. Which there isn't.

 

[Mjhl85]

If the desire to be wealthy was innate. Then everyone would strive to be wealthy. There are many cases of people who don't so it can't be true.

I really don't know what that is suppose to prove though. That people have an innate desire to be rich so thats the justification of capitalism and wage labor ? Thats a real degraded way of looking at human nature. Even if there was evidence for it. Which there isn't.

Everybody strives to be wealthy to think otherwise is naive. The fact that a lottery can reach upwards of 500 mil proves that easily.
Some who dont bother probably have some serotonergic helplessness idea that they cant ever be rich. Doesn't mean they don't want to.
Its not about justifying anything. It's about the innate desire not necessarily or actively tying to stop those who encourage the system.
That and the fact that people are always looking for ways to be wealthy proves that the lack of justification is just a by-product of the innate desire.
You call it degraded, some of us would say realistic.

 

[jaguar43]

Everybody strives to be wealthy to think otherwise is naive. The fact that a lottery can reach upwards of 500 mil proves that easily.
Some who dont bother probably have some serotonergic helplessness idea that they cant ever be rich. Doesn't mean they don't want to.
Its not about justifying anything. It's about the innate desire not necessarily or actively tying to stop those who encourage the system.
That and the fact that people are always looking for ways to be wealthy proves that the lack of justification is just a by-product of the innate desire.
You call it degraded, some of us would say realistic.

Ok, so your argument is that because we have lotteries reaching millions. That some how proves that people have an innate desire to strive to be rich ?


Type A behavior is associated with high serotonin according to this study.

Rapid communication whole blood serotonin and the type A behavior pattern. - PubMed - NCBI

In 72 young males, whole blood serotonin is shown to have a pronounced relationship with the Type A behavior pattern. The relationship is explored with multivariate statistical techniques.

So here is another study showing that type a personality is associated status-concious and competivitivnes.

Type A and Type B personality among Undergraduate Medical Students: Need for psychosocial rehabilitation

Ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status conscious, impatient are usually Type A personality.....

To judge the presence of type A personality, several researchers have used impatience, anger, work involvement, time urgency, job dissatisfaction and competitiveness grades....

So your whole argument is false. In fact, it's absolutely the opposite to your argument. Your only evidence is base on something as obscure as lotteries. Which proves absolutely nothing. Nobody is buying the idea, and your projecting your political ideology onto your social ideas. It's all for justification without evidence.

 

[burtlancast]

I would assume that Ray Peat wouldn't agree. It may still have something to offer. At least on the philosophical level.

The reason I jumped from Blake to Lenin is that I think Marx was only
abstract and sketchy in the way he revealed the theological idealism hidden
in the various philosophies, but Lenin in his notebooks prophetically and
concretely showed the fallacies that were repeated endlessly in 20th
century philosophies of science, positivism, language philosophy, etc.
Either people don't read Lenin's philosophical work, or they are so trapped
in their theologies of "pure science" and other abstract systems that they
can't respond in any way to his powerful analysis. - Ray Peat

Blake List Archive -- Albion.com

"Our power does not know liberty or justice. It is entirely established on the destruction of the individual will. We are the masters. Complete indifference to suffering is our duty. In the fulfillment of our calling, the greatest cruelty is a merit. "
"Though a systematic terror, during which every breach of contract, every treason, every lie will be lawful, we will find the way to abase humanity down to the lowest level of existence. That is indispensible to the establishment of our dominance".

Eugene Register-Guard - Google News Archive Search
Itself referring to: Nicolai Lenin, Complete Work, Russian edition vol. 25.

Remember, this is the same Lenin who got funded by capitalist dollars, as Anthony Sutton proved.
Would love to hear what Ray has to say about him.

Or about Marx caring about exploited workers while notoriously never having worked a single day in his life, financed by Engels, himself a member of a wealthy English family.

Mmm....

 

[Mjhl85]

Ok, so your argument is that because we have lotteries reaching millions. That some how proves that people have an innate desire to strive to be rich ?


Type A behavior is associated with high serotonin according to this study.

Rapid communication whole blood serotonin and the type A behavior pattern. - PubMed - NCBI

In 72 young males, whole blood serotonin is shown to have a pronounced relationship with the Type A behavior pattern. The relationship is explored with multivariate statistical techniques.

So here is another study showing that type a personality is associated status-concious and competivitivnes.

Type A and Type B personality among Undergraduate Medical Students: Need for psychosocial rehabilitation

Ambitious, rigidly organized, highly status conscious, impatient are usually Type A personality.....

To judge the presence of type A personality, several researchers have used impatience, anger, work involvement, time urgency, job dissatisfaction and competitiveness grades....

So your whole argument is false. In fact, it's absolutely the opposite to your argument. Your only evidence is base on something as obscure as lotteries. Which proves absolutely nothing. Nobody is buying the idea, and your projecting your political ideology onto your social ideas. It's all for justification without evidence.

You're ability to confuse two different points is alarming.
Trying to prove that serotonergic means something else doesn't disprove innate desire to be wealthy.
"Rigidity" means not adapting. The type A you speak of is conversely the same as the rigidity of learned helplessness that Ray has spoken of. Both serotonergic.
Yes lottery is one example of proof we have innate desire to be rich.
You can ignore that fact if you want. Believe what you like.

 

[Nick]

desire to be wealthy and still strive to be so in this system then the desire is innate regardless of its consequence.
The wealthy want to keep it, the enslaved strive to be the same.

Everybody strives to be wealthy to think otherwise is naive. The fact that a lottery can reach upwards of 500 mil proves that easily.
Some who dont bother probably have some serotonergic helplessness idea that they cant ever be rich. Doesn't mean they don't want to.
Its not about justifying anything. It's about the innate desire not necessarily or actively tying to stop those who encourage the system.
That and the fact that people are always looking for ways to be wealthy proves that the lack of justification is just a by-product of the innate desire.
You call it degraded, some of us would say realistic.

There are many people who have no desire to be wealthy. There exist at present and in the past entire cultures that have no concept of wealth. It does not follow that because a large portion of a population that is subjected to constant advertising and consumerist propaganda desires the wealth that they are taught by the culture to desire, that this is an innate trait of human nature. This would be what Peat refers to in this interview at the "trashiest" parts of the culture. Our culture values wealth, so many people seek it. It is more amazing that some manage to resist the values that are reinforced by capitalism. In a culture that valued solidarity, mutual aid, and creative achievements, people would adapt to value these new norms. One of the pervasive themes in Peat's writing is the adaptive nature of humans and all animals and opposition to this kind of deterministic idea.

 

[Mjhl85]

There are many people who have no desire to be wealthy. There exist at present and in the past entire cultures that have no concept of wealth...

The excuse that people are taught wealth as a value is a crutch and so is the example of peoples with no concept of wealth. There's no explaination of peoples who innately desired it without being taught other than innateness.

 

[jaguar43]

You're ability to confuse two different points is alarming.
Trying to prove that serotonergic means something else doesn't disprove innate desire to be wealthy.
"Rigidity" means not adapting. The type A you speak of is conversely the same as the rigidity of learned helplessness that Ray has spoken of. Both serotonergic.
Yes lottery is one example of proof we have innate desire to be rich.
You can ignore that fact if you want. Believe what you like.

Ok, but according to the study, people who are type A are status conscious and competitive. In the United States, A high income is usually associated with high status. I think its fair to say that people who are status conscious try to be more wealthy. Are you saying the study is wrong ?

I believe it proves that the desire to be wealthy isn't innate. It's just you don't want to believe for whatever reason. I don't think it's a question of evidence rather a question of trying to justify a certain economic system. It's the same argument when people say that militarism is innate because sovereign nations go to war. They need a justification to go to war, so they say it's an innate characteristic.

And no a lottery is not evidence that people have an innate desire to be rich. Because everyone knows that the house always wins. Whether in Las Vegas or in a lottery. You chances are winning are slim. Everyone knows that.

People don't play to lottery because their innate desire, rather because they may have a gambling problem. Or may want to try their luck, since thats what it is at the end of the day.

 

[jaguar43]

Eugene Register-Guard - Google News Archive Search
Itself referring to: Nicolai Lenin, Complete Work, Russian edition vol. 25.

Remember, this is the same Lenin who got funded by capitalist dollars, as Anthony Sutton proved.
Would love to hear what Ray has to say about him.

Or about Marx caring about exploited workers while notoriously never having worked a single day in his life, financed by Engels, himself a member of a wealthy English family.

Mmm....

I would call that newspaper article a form of anti-communism propaganda.

I don't know if lenin was funded by capitalist dollars. I am pretty sure he and his crew robbed banks to funded themselves.

Marx did work, he was a writer. How is that not working ? Was he suppose to be a factory worker or something. It's funny when the the idle ruling class don't work, there is no problem. But people hold Marx to a higher stander than anyone in the world and some portray him as a leach. It's probably because people can't challenge his work on an economic and social basis so that they resort to slander.


Like l said before, unless you are in the ruling class, and are criticizing Marx, kropotkin, and others you have a false sense of reality. Ray Peat was right when he said people don't know where they belong in the class system. They think they are higher than they actually are. I call them little rich people.

 

[Nick]

The excuse that people are taught wealth as a value is a crutch and so is the example of peoples with no concept of wealth. There's no explaination of peoples who innately desired it without being taught other than innateness.

People innately seek happiness. People are taught that wealth will make them happy. It's really very simple. You should read Ray Peat's article on academic authoritarians where he specifically dismisses the kind of point you are making

 

[burtlancast]

I don't know if lenin was funded by capitalist dollars. I am pretty sure he and his crew robbed banks to funded themselves..

The US capitalists funded communism and kept building the URSS all throughout the 20's to today.
Anthony Sutton provides the dates, amounts, technological details, etc all from official archives.

That's not even debatable.

 

[jaguar43]

The US capitalists funded communism and kept building the URSS all throughout the 20's to today.
Anthony Sutton provides the dates, amounts, technological details, etc all from official archives.

That's not even debatable.

I don't believe it. He is part of the Rothschild conspiracy theories. It's true that during the 1930's corporation like ford and Koch industries went there to build joint-stock companies. But then stalin nationalized their production. But that is as far as it went.

That is the same guy who believes that collectivization is part of a conspiracy to enslave people. Thats a joke, and it's anti-communist propaganda. People who support him like Richard Pipes a CIA agent and Brzezinski national security advisor. It fits perfectly into the anti-communist ideology.

You want to see how bad "collectivization" is look at the example that Ray Peat gave at the end of interview. The city is called Marinaleda, Spain.

Marinaleda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Marinaleda: Spain's communist model village

it has full employment no police, no crime and immune from the housing market speculation.

 

[jaguar43]

The excuse that people are taught wealth as a value is a crutch and so is the example of peoples with no concept of wealth. There's no explaination of peoples who innately desired it without being taught other than innateness.

No, wealth is power in the class struggle. The problem is in the U.S the working class doesn't even know that they are the working class. You are trying to tell people that class struggle doesn't matter because everyone wants to be rich. Even if thats truth which it isn't , everyone can't be wealthy. So people should strive for their own class.

 

[Parsifal]

I think that we would have to understand why some people are perverses (like pedophiles), sociopaths, psychopaths, sadistic and terrorists and if it is avoidable and reversible before thinking we can live in a true anarchy/non-authoritarian society unfortunately. I think people should ask more about these psychological problems to Ray.

 

[Parsifal]

Don't forget that Marx wrote his books for bankers and that he plagiarized french socialists writers like Victor Considerant.

 

[sle07]

I would think that on a forum full of people having to order "prescription drugs" from Mexico and India, as well as jump through hoops to get basic lab tests done, the case for limited government would be instinctual and obvious...

 

[burtlancast]

I don't believe it. He is part of the Rothschild conspiracy theories..

You have that backwards; he's come out against these Rothschild conspiracy theories.

Better try opening his books before claiming to know him.

They're all online.

 

[Drareg]

Don't forget that Marx wrote his books for bankers and that he plagiarized french socialists writers like Victor Considerant.

Yes, leave them all in the past and start again.
3 rooms ,1 with the thinking for the new idea, 2nd to pass through a filter that checks if it resembles psychopathy or any other past failed idea,3rd full of 9 year olds male and female to check the passed idea.

 

[gilson dantas]

I think I totally agree with haidut: "Remember, the last stage of communism (according to Marx, Engels, and Lenin, but not Stalin or some other tyrants) is anarchism. Anarchism is what communism is expected to transition into when it successfully completes its dialectical opposition with capitalism. If you read Das Kapital, max makes that point very clear. I am quite said that this book (Kapital) is not given more attention in the academic system. If students read it with an open mind, I doubt you'd have so many enslaved souls. But then again, if it will cause such havoc no wonder it is not promoted for more studying..."
Perfect.

 

[jaguar43]

You have that backwards; he's come out against these Rothschild conspiracy theories.

Better try opening his books before claiming to know him.

They're all online.

I meant that as a generalization to project him with all the other conspiracy theories. Whether illuminati, aliens, skull and bones, or gold standard.