Serotonin, The Fraudulent Anti-depressant

[Hans]

As we know most people believe that serotonin is effective against depression. Most of us here are very aware of the fact that serotonin is not good, but don't necessarily know why or have the right references.

I wrote an article on serotonin and depression, so be sure to check it out if you want to learn about the connection between serotonin and depression.
Serotonin, the fraudulent anti-depressant » MenElite

 

[scoobydoo]

Nice article! Methylene blue at first helped tremendously. But now even 1 drop and I get serotonin like symptoms (tinnitus is louder, ruminating thoughts). Diamant in low doses seems to be much more effective for myself.

 

[Hans]

Nice article! Methylene blue at first helped tremendously. But now even 1 drop and I get serotonin like symptoms (tinnitus is louder, ruminating thoughts). Diamant in low doses seems to be much more effective for myself.

The methylene blue has probably lowered DR serotonin (and mesolimbic dopamine) too much, which causes MR serotonin to be unopposed. The adamantane is most likely increasing dopamine in the mesolimbic area for you and that's why it's helping a lot, which is basically the opposite of the MB.

 

[scoobydoo]

The methylene blue has probably lowered DR serotonin (and mesolimbic dopamine) too much, which causes MR serotonin to be unopposed. The adamantane is most likely increasing dopamine in the mesolimbic area for you and that's why it's helping a lot, which is basically the opposite of the MB.

DR being Dorsal Raphe? Makes sense!

 

[High_Prob]

It’s not that Serotonin is not good, it’s that excessive Serotonin is not good. Just like excessive dopamine (or any other neurotransmitter) is not good. I know that you already know this @Hans....I just think this should be constantly emphasized in order to stay grounded.

 

[scoobydoo]

It’s not that Serotonin is not good, it’s that excessive Serotonin is not good. Just like excessive dopamine is not good.

Yes this is true. However, I think it defintiely is still elevated in my case.

 

[Arnold Grape]

Before Peat I took St. John’s Wort for many years, which I believe acts in part on 5-HT2A, in addition to other things. Recently I have been messing with Cyproheptadine, which temporarily was able to produce a similar effect to SJW. What’s confusing to me is that people here do not talk about SJW more because it seems to reduce major stress hormones and I’m curious about its effect on the gut (although it may increase brain serotonin).

Nothing else that I have experienced with is able to produce the effects of SJW, which makes me curious if you are able to say what may do so.

—Cool read.

 

[Hans]

It’s not that Serotonin is not good, it’s that excessive Serotonin is not good. Just like excessive dopamine (or any other neurotransmitter) is not good. I know that you already know this @Hans....I just think this should be constantly emphasized in order to stay grounded.

Good point, I should focus on that more.

 

[Hans]

Before Peat I took St. John’s Wort for many years, which I believe acts in part on 5-HT2A, in addition to other things. Recently I have been messing with Cyproheptadine, which temporarily was able to produce a similar effect to SJW. What’s confusing to me is that people here do not talk about SJW more because it seems to reduce major stress hormones and I’m curious about its effect on the gut (although it may increase brain serotonin).

Nothing else that I have experienced with is able to produce the effects of SJW, which makes me curious if you are able to say what may do so.

—Cool read.

I haven't specifically looked in SJW yet. What symptoms did you have before taking SJW and what did it do for you?

 

[Arnold Grape]

Dysthymia (lifer): the SJW definitely ameliorated this effect and allowed me to be somewhat more sociable for a sustained period. (i.e years) The Peat approaches to diet by method of sterilizing the gut and possibly getting sunlight and/ or d3 have helped with depression symptoms. All of the other things (IME) seem like poor suggestions for long term treatment of depression. For example, taking progesterone is cool and will make you less depressed, but not at the expense of messing up your body.

 

[High_Prob]

The other great mystery is why SSRIs are the only thing that has ever helped my depression, they made a drastic difference. However, I stopped taking them roughly 10 years ago. I stopped taking them because I agree with the theory that their effectiveness is based on some other mechanism (s).

The Allopregnanolone and BDNF theory for SSRI’s mechanism of action seems really attractive. However, I have tried many substances that effect BDNF and allo but I have not seen improvements that can match SSRIs. Have not tried 5a DHP yet, this will be a future experiment.

 

[Hans]

The other great mystery is why SSRIs are the only thing that has ever helped my depression, they made a drastic difference. However, I stopped taking them roughly 10 years ago. I stopped taking them because I agree with the theory that their effectiveness is based on some other mechanism (s).

The Allopregnanolone and BDNF theory for SSRI’s mechanism of action seems really attractive. However, I have tried many substances that effect BDNF and allo but I have not seen improvements that can match SSRIs. Have not tried 5a DHP yet, this will be a future experiment.

What're your symptoms? Major depression?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

It’s not that Serotonin is not good, it’s that excessive Serotonin is not good. Just like excessive dopamine (or any other neurotransmitter) is not good. I know that you already know this @Hans....I just think this should be constantly emphasized in order to stay grounded.

Not the impression I got from listening to a few of DR's podcasts.
How do you define excessive Serotonin? Could people differ vastly in their baseline Serotonin levels or not?

 

[metabolizm]

The other great mystery is why SSRIs are the only thing that has ever helped my depression, they made a drastic difference. However, I stopped taking them roughly 10 years ago. I stopped taking them because I agree with the theory that their effectiveness is based on some other mechanism (s).

The Allopregnanolone and BDNF theory for SSRI’s mechanism of action seems really attractive. However, I have tried many substances that effect BDNF and allo but I have not seen improvements that can match SSRIs. Have not tried 5a DHP yet, this will be a future experiment.

What have you tried?

 

[High_Prob]

Not the impression I got from listening to a few of DR's podcasts.
How do you define excessive Serotonin? Could people differ vastly in their baseline Serotonin levels or not?

I agree with Georgi D/Ray Peat that when you are in a stressed state (especially as you age) that it is safe to assume that the stress hormones are high, serotonin high, estrogen high. These hormones/neurotransmitters are out of balance when you are in a stressed state. So excessive meaning anything that throws the system out of balance...

 

[lampofred]

The methylene blue has probably lowered DR serotonin (and mesolimbic dopamine) too much, which causes MR serotonin to be unopposed. The adamantane is most likely increasing dopamine in the mesolimbic area for you and that's why it's helping a lot, which is basically the opposite of the MB.

Do you know the mechanism of action as to how/why they do those things as it relates to thyroid & hormones? Why does MB lower serotonin/dopamine in certain regions and not others, why does adamantane increase dopamine in other regions?

 

[Hans]

Do you know the mechanism of action as to how/why they do those things as it relates to thyroid & hormones? Why does MB lower serotonin/dopamine in certain regions and not others, why does adamantane increase dopamine in other regions?

It's because of the enzyme and receptor expression and densities is certain areas. Like I mentioned in the article, 5-HT1A is highly expressed in the DR nucleus and not the MR, and 5-HT1B/D is expressed in the MR and not the DR. So using zinc, which activates 5-HT1A will only lower DR serotonin and not MR serotonin. This can create an imbalance, but can restore balance if the DR dominated over the MR.
Furthermore the DR innervates the mesolimbic dopamine area whereas MR innervates the mesocortical dopamine area, so each has its own functions. It's much more complex than this but it's a good summary.
There isn't much research on adamantane, but if you look at drugs with the same structure, such as amantadine, Bromantane, etc., you can see where these drugs increase dopamine in the brain. Adamantane has more beneficial actions than just increasing dopamine, but also has anti-cholinergic actions for example, which has been shown to be anti-depressant.

 

[High_Prob]

What have you tried?

As far as BDNF/Allo:
Palmitoylethanolamine
Glycine
Pregnenolone/DHEA
Noopept
Lions Mane
Caffeine
Curcumin
7,8 Dihydroxyflavone
Aniracetam
Low dose lithium
Theanine


Right now I am taking:

Agmatine
Low dose Lithium Orotate
Creatine

Trying to tackle both the AMPA/MTOR hypothesis and the BDNF/ALLO hypothesis at the same time. I haven’t been taking it long enough to know...I’ll give it at least
4 - 6 weeks.

 

[Hans]

As far as BDNF/Allo:
Palmitoylethanolamine
Glycine
Pregnenolone/DHEA
Noopept
Lions Mane
Caffeine
Curcumin
7,8 Dihydroxyflavone
Aniracetam
Low dose lithium
Theanine


Right now I am taking:

Agmatine
Low dose Lithium Orotate
Creatine

Trying to tackle both the AMPA/MTOR hypothesis and the BDNF/ALLO hypothesis at the same time. I haven’t been taking it long enough to know...I’ll give it at least
4 - 6 weeks.

Agmatine is a good test to see if you have major depression or uncoping stress. If you react good to it then you might have uncoping stress. If it makes you angry and aggressive, then you might have major depression.
Niacinamide can also help to increase BDNF. Have you tried large doses of magnesium before spread throughout the day?

 

[JudiBlueHen]

The other great mystery is why SSRIs are the only thing that has ever helped my depression, they made a drastic difference. However, I stopped taking them roughly 10 years ago. I stopped taking them because I agree with the theory that their effectiveness is based on some other mechanism (s).

The Allopregnanolone and BDNF theory for SSRI’s mechanism of action seems really attractive. However, I have tried many substances that effect BDNF and allo but I have not seen improvements that can match SSRIs. Have not tried 5a DHP yet, this will be a future experiment.

That is fascinating. SSRIs are the only psych meds that make me euphoric for 24-48 hours and then crazy irritable and furiously angry. Always had to stop them within 4-5 days as I could not stop clenching my teeth. For me and my depression, SSRIs are toxic.