Seriously Confused About CO2 After Reading Gbolduev's Thread

[gbolduev]

I think gbold has opened up some lines of inquiry that will be helpful.

From my understanding, doctors measure pCO2 and bicarb, and this buffer system, while not that significant a buffer system, also measures other buffer systems like serum protein and the calcium in your bones because your body will balance all these buffer systems together.

One claim Peat has made is that a higher amount of breathed in Co2, such as on a submarine, means less excreted Calcium and stronger bones. Although Peat also accounts for oxygen pressure being important...this is why being at high elevation is different then just sucking on a brown bag all day at low elevation...from my understanding.

What gbold is basically saying is that the higher Co2 in venous blood is forcing the body to lower energy production. Peat claims the higher amount of Co2 increases metabolic rate...but I am not sure Peat claims that higher venous Co2 is that same as living at a higher elevation. Peat also uses Co2 baths and these have a nice track record of making people feel great. I have actually experienced both of the cases described by Peat and by gbold. I just got back from a camping trip at 8k feet, and had a much stronger metabolism, better sleep, more energy, etc. I have also sat at home, breathed in a paper bag, and felt tired, uninspired, and low metabolic rate.

High altitude causes low CO2 since it causes hyperventilation and respiratory alkalosis, this is a known FACT. I have no idea what Peat talks about

High altitude causes you to breathe faster looking for oxygen. This makes you breath out CO2 and this forces the body to make more CO2 in the cell.

Respiratory alkalosis - Wikipedia Read and see the causes of respiratory alkalosis( low CO2)

 

[Tarmander]

You guys should discuss this in one thread. Creating tons of new threads will be crazy))))

we need threads where we can discuss this stuff without you threatening to leave if someone is misunderstanding something. I had planned to start a thread that discusses some of your ideas that you would not have to be apart of if you did not want to.

 

[Xisca]

High altitude causes you to breathe faster looking for oxygen. This makes you breath out CO2 and this forces the body to make more CO2 in the cell.

I suppose what you say is about somebody going up there ?
That's what athletes do I think... I don't know how long it takes for them to get the benefits.
What if you live there?
Then the body adapts and reset the breating in after having more CO2 in the blood.
I say this corresponding to Buteyko's idea of the control pause,
you have more tolerance to CO2 and you breath less quick.

 

[gbolduev]

I suppose what you say is about somebody going up there ?
What if you live there?
Then the body adapts and reset the breating in after having more CO2 in the blood. I say this corresponding to Buteyko's idea of the control pause, you hae more tolerance to CO2 and you breath less quick.

they body will never reset the breathing, it will just compensate by metabolic acidosis and faster metabolism.
Effects of high altitude on humans - Wikipedia

 

[Tarmander]

High altitude causes low CO2 since it causes hyperventilation and respiratory alkalosis, this is a known FACT. I have no idea what Peat talks about

High altitude causes you to breathe faster looking for oxygen. This makes you breath out CO2 and this forces the body to make more CO2 in the cell.

Respiratory alkalosis - Wikipedia Read and see the causes of respiratory alkalosis( low CO2)

Yes this is what you have said in the other thread, and many times, but there are implications that are unexplained. For example, could hyperventilation at lower altitudes mimic this higher elevation spike in metabolism? There are actual yogic practices that hyperventilate people, and from most people who practice them, the respiratory alkalosis is not good for them long term. Yet people can adapt to higher elevations seemingly without much problem.

Peat has recommended basically high elevation, high sun, high fruit, high calcium, high protein. I think of that as his kind of bottom of the pyramid, "this works for almost anyone," recommendation.

 

[opiath]

People who are sick are not converting to co2 efficiently. To say otherwise totally misses the krebs cycle, you know that thing that is broken in sickly people.
He's taking for granted how co2 is even made. its not free, it doesn't just happen and pile up as he's suggesting. Slow oxidizers do not retain c02 efficiently, thats the point! It's directly a by product of health also feeding into health. Therefore increasing it by Peat means can and will help those who are sickly.

I agree that a broken krebs cycle means you produce less CO2 which is a problem but does this really happen in all sick people?
The observations of @mattyb seem to point otherwise.

I work in respirology/sleep medicine, and can 100% confirm what he is saying about most people's problem being too much CO2 retention in aging. I have seen hundreds of oximetry readouts and blood gases. It is so well known and easy to see in my field. You literally see a linear trend in age and CO2 retention. Young people have high oxygen saturation, low-moderate CO2. Old people have low sats, high CO2. Most sick people have high CO2. That's why so many people are on supplemental oxygen. Treatments like CPAP work, and they raise O2 sats, help ventilate CO2. Very very rare in respirology that you see people with low CO2 and high oxygen. Those people don't usually get sick, or rather, most people simply don't develop those problems.

 

[gbolduev]

Yes this is what you have said in the other thread, and many times, but there are implications that are unexplained. For example, could hyperventilation at lower altitudes mimic this higher elevation spike in metabolism? There are actual yogic practices that hyperventilate people, and from most people who practice them, the respiratory alkalosis is not good for them long term. Yet people can adapt to higher elevations seemingly without much problem.

Peat has recommended basically high elevation, high sun, high fruit, high calcium, high protein. I think of that as his kind of bottom of the pyramid, "this works for almost anyone," recommendation.

It does not work for anyone. I lived in high altitudes, some people had to move out of there since they could never adapt and their health became critical.

 

[sladerunner69]

Ray says hyperventilating is not good because it causes oxygen poisoning. Whats to be unsure about exactly?

What he says is in direct opposition to what Peat says and what Buteyko says, but it makes sense...

So why does hyperventilating cause seizures? Is it better for your health to hyperventilate or hypoventilate?

Can someone who is in touch with Peat show him gbolduev's posts and ask him to respond?

This is a pretty fundamental thing to be unsure about...

 

[gbolduev]

Ray says hyperventilating is not good because it causes oxygen poisoning. Whats to be unsure about exactly?

Hyperventilating is not good, hypoventilation is not good either. I dont say what Peat says nor what buteyko says. Depends on your body chemistry. Stanislaf Grof hyperventilates all his life. Looks pretty good for a dude who is what 10 years older than Peat. It all depends on your metabolism . for some holotropic breahing is death, for some it is a cancer cure. I saw hundreds of people cure from incurable diseases with it.

It depends on y0ur bodychemistry and your PH imbalance.

 

[sladerunner69]

Hyperventilating is not good, hypoventilation is not good either. I dont say what Peat says nor what buteyko says. Depends on your body chemistry. Stanislaf Grof hyperventilates all his life. Looks pretty good for a dude who is what 10 years older than Peat. It all depends on your metabolism . for some holotropic breahing is death, for some it is a cancer cure. I saw hundreds of people cure from incurable diseases with it.

It depends on y0ur bodychemistry and your PH imbalance.

Stanislaf Graf (just looked him up now) is actually the same age as Ray. I think Ray looks stronger, not to mention Ray's memory recall and writing ability I find just astounding

 

[gbolduev]

Stanislaf Graf (just looked him up now) is actually the same age as Ray. I think Ray looks stronger, not to mention Ray's memory recall and writing ability I find just astounding

Grof is older, was born 1931. Peat 1936. he is 86. Peat is 81. I saw Grof live recently he looked good. Peat I did not see, some 10 year old videos on youtube

 

[Mjhl85]

I agree that a broken krebs cycle means you produce less CO2 which is a problem but does this really happen in all sick people?
The observations of @mattyb seem to point otherwise.

Blood gases like blood hormones dont tell you how well you are saturating tissues.

 

[sladerunner69]

Grof is older, was born 1931. Peat 1936. he is 86. Peat is 81. I saw Grof live recently he looked good. Peat I did not see, some 10 year old videos on youtube

Where did you see that? As I recall Peat said he was born in '30... my memory recall abilities are not fantastic thanks in part to finasteride

 

[gbolduev]

Where did you see that? As I recall Peat said he was born in '30... my memory recall abilities are not fantastic thanks in part to finasteride

You see you don't even know the birthday of your guru, Slader. October 12, 1936. He is only 81. On youtube it is 2005 he is 69 there. Grof looked much better in 70s, he looked 50 in 70s. He started to let down after his wife died in 2014.

Have no idea what you are talking about Peat looking stronger than Grof. Peat looks like corps now. Look at his recent pictures. On the videos on youtube he is only 69. My fathers age. My father looks so much younger than Peat it is not even funny. Peat could be his father in that video.

My grandfather is 87 and looks much better than Peat or Grof

 

[Xisca]

@Tarmander this "high elevation, high sun, high fruit, high calcium, high protein.
"this works for almost anyone," recommendation." is impossible.
We do not live at the same places, and there are healthy old people in many different places.

Depends on your body chemistry. It all depends on your metabolism . for some holotropic breahing is death, for some it is a cancer cure. It depends on y0ur bodychemistry and your PH imbalance.

It does not work for anyone. I lived in high altitudes, some people had to move out of there

How do people know what is good for them without the analysis?
There must be a way to know it by feeling ourselves....

What I know from experience, is that when I do slow breathing when I have a headache, I stop it. In that case it works. Also, if I do not hyperventilate when I walk fast, I feel better.

But in my regular living, I have a posture defect and I breathe not enough for sure.
So I have worked outside, and I like fresh air!

 

[Tarmander]

@Tarmander this "high elevation, high sun, high fruit, high calcium, high protein.
"this works for almost anyone," recommendation." is impossible.
We do not live at the same places, and there are healthy old people in many different places.

How do people know what is good for them without the analysis?
There must be a way to know it by feeling ourselves....

What I know from experience, is that when I do slow breathing when I have a headache, I stop it. In that case it works. Also, if I do not hyperventilate when I walk fast, I feel better.

But in my regular living, I have a posture defect and I breathe not enough for sure.
So I have worked outside, and I like fresh air!

??? It's not impossible, that is what he actually said on the kmud radio.

 

[Xisca]

I found this about CO2 and bicarb in wiki, confirming what was said to Janelle about the different rate of change between CO2 and bicarbonate:
"Gradually, the body compensates for the respiratory alkalosis by renal excretion of bicarbonate, allowing adequate respiration to provide oxygen without risking alkalosis. It takes about four days at any given altitude"

Tarmander, I did not say it was impossible he said this, but impossible that it be true for almost everyone, for the reasons I said. How would you do to live this perfect life, if you live north and with no fruits? And if you live near the sea? You'd move house?

 

[ecstatichamster]

High altitude causes low CO2 since it causes hyperventilation and respiratory alkalosis, this is a known FACT. I have no idea what Peat talks about

High altitude causes you to breathe faster looking for oxygen. This makes you breath out CO2 and this forces the body to make more CO2 in the cell.

Respiratory alkalosis - Wikipedia Read and see the causes of respiratory alkalosis( low CO2)

I doubt this. Bothers me about you is you never give cites .

Be that as it may, the haldane effect says that less oxygen present in high-altitude displaces less carbon dioxide and so there is actually more carbon dioxide rather than less in the body. That's what Ray says.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...ga&s=56b8fc2c7fa3f1fe8ea7fe57b41ea88e10ca8f83

It is evident that a striking degree of acclimatisation was actually obtained, as on the fourth day J. S. H. could easily carry on with gas analyses, etc., and even work on the ergometer, ,for not only did the hemo- globin percentage fail to rise (since in both subjects it was lower on the fourth than the first day), but there was no lasting lowering of the alveolar CO2 pressure, which was almost as high on the morning of the fourth day as on that of the first day

 

[Colin Nordstrom]

@gbolduev stated: People get sick these days, since they dont move and eat sugar. This creates too much Co2 which they cant breathe out. This forces your body to lower CO2 production in the cell. Otherwise your PH balance is going to be screwed up.

Completely false. If you don't move, you don't bring oxygen into the system. Sugar has two choices during glycolysis: 1) pyruvate fermentation or 2) pyruvate oxidation. Pyruvate fermentation produces lactate; pyruvate oxidation produces CO2 (via the Krebs cycle). Thus you wouldn't get CO2 from not moving, you would get lactic acid.

 

[gbolduev]

[

I found this about CO2 and bicarb
"Gradually, the body compensates for the respiratory alkalosis by renal excretion of bicarbonate, allowing adequate respiration to provide oxygen without risking alkalosis. It takes about four days at any given altitude"

Tarmander, I did not say it was impossible he said this, but impossible that it be true for almost everyone, for the reasons I said.
How do you do if you live north and wth no fruits? And if you live near the sea? You move?

I posted this. Body compensates with metabolic acidosis. It does the same if you hyperventilate sitting at home by the sea