New Conversation W Georgi: How Endotoxin Makes Life Less Lively

Discussion in 'Video Interviews' started by DButter, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. DButter

    DButter Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2017
    Messages:
    31
    Gender:
    Male
    I had the pleasure to do this one with Georgi. He talks about what "endotoxin" really is, and he highlights how we may be able to keep endotoxic load low, so that living is a lot more fun. I'd love to hear what you think if you listen.

     
  2. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    6,782
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Not Uganda
    Thank you for sharing. I didn't know you could reach (kyle, 2019) divinities through Skype, I was expecting a sacred temple or something alike to be needed for this.

    Next time, can you ask him why he named SolBan as such, and not RayBan? :cool
     
  3. boris

    boris Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2019
    Messages:
    443
    Gender:
    Male
    Great one :thumbleft!

    Does anyone know what are the exact studies he talks about at around and after 25:30?
     
  4. CLASH

    CLASH Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    795
    Gender:
    Male
    @haidut
    I greatly appreciate your work and supps and I agree with the general idea of what you said here but I want to bring up a few points of clarification and some discrepancies I have with some things you discussed:

    1) both gram negative and gram positive bacteria can cause issues. Yes, endotoxin is from gram negative bacteria but gram positive bacteria also produce toxins that cause metabolic issues. This point isnt for you as much as the general person watching.

    2) Undigested food does indeed cause bacterial growth, but undigested food in and of itself is not a cause of endotoxin. Thats too broad of a statement. Specific foods induce endotoxin, not undigested food in general. I think saying that confuses the audience and creates the wrong idea for people as to what to eat.

    3) Saying resistant starch as a whole category causes endotoxin is way too broad. Foods like yams and sweet potatoes have been shown to protect against endotoxin. In some people with a dysbiosis these foods may be an issue, but for others like @olive these foods are fine. Many cultures have used yams and tubers and have produced health. The polyphenols in them help to prevent the effects of endotoxin while encouraging the growth of symbionts in the colon while discouraging the growth of pathogens, as long as s dysbiosis isnt present. Refined, purified, supplemental starches and fibers may be an issue and even these natural starches may be an issue in a dysbiotic situation but for someone with a relatively healthy colonic ecosystem tubers should be perfectly fine. Starches and fibers from beans and grains, nuts and seeds and some vegetables are a different story.

    4) You cant kill off all the bacteria in the bowel, attempting to do so wit antibiotics, as you mentioned is problematic. You can however try to eliminate pathogens with different supplements specifically. The large intestine will never be sterile, the small intestine can be relatively sterile. The goal in my mind is never a sterile large intestine, its a large intestine without a pathogenic community. A close to sterile small intestinal is feasible and a goal to shoot for.

    5) taking activated charcoal does help but it doesnt cure anyones dysbiosis, it helps while you take it, atleast in my experience. The thing is activated charcoal cant be taken constantly because of nutrient absorption issues and its very constipating for some people. Plus depending on the source there are possible persorption issues. In the longevity studies, if I'm not mistaken, it was given a few days a month in the rats.

    6) The statements on soluble vs insoluble fiber are a mischaracterization at best. Most natural foods contain both soluble and insoluble fiber including carrots and bamboo shoots. Soluble fiber from fruits doesnt cause endotoxemia, it actually protects against it. Most sources of soluble fiber are from grains, and seeds. Looking at fiber as soluble vs insoluble isnt so helpful overall. I think its better to look at the foods eaten specifically as different foods have different effects due to numerous components. Fiber from grains, beans, nuts, seeds and some vegetables comes with alot of other compounds that cause issues like lectins that damage the gut lining and interact with the immune system, digestive inhibitors, fodmaps, mineral chelators etc. this is more important than the idea of soluble vs insoluble fiber. Fiber from fruits comes with neutral or beneficial lectins in most cases, a lack of toxins if ripe, polyphenols, nutrients and other components that protect against endotoxin, heal the gut encourage non-pathogenic bacterial growth and/ or hold inhibit growth overall while discouraging pathogens in the gut. Fruit was made to be eaten, the other foods were not, hence the issues with those; they have compounds to inhibit thier digestion and discourage consumption. There is the stipulation tho that some fruits can cause issues for people and do have problematic compounds like fodmaps and poor glucose: fructose ratios. Tubers are a gray area, they follow Peats rational for carrots, i.e. they have compounds (mainly in the skin) to protect against bacteria and fungi, not neccesarily mammals. They often are rich in nutrients and energy as they are storage organs for the plant. They are usually tolerated well by people with no gut issues (i.e. dysbiosis).

    7) Potatoes and other tubers are often considered to be good sources of resistant starch. White rice is as well, especially if heated and then cooled.

    8) eating fructose in excess of glucose is what causes issues for people, in many studies this is a great way to cause endotoxemia and thus fatty liver especially if purified sources are used. A great way to induce diarrhea and mess up your gut is to drink alot of apple juice, which has an atrocious glucose:fructose ratio (it also can have a ton of sorbitol).

    9) Honey, especially with its glucose to fructose ratio causes issues for many people.

    10) is serotonin the direct cause of these diseases or is it gut bacteria/ poor diet inducing serotonin secretion which leads to these diseases? If it is the latter rather than the former then blocking serotonin may help but ultimately fixing the underlying issue is the real way to proceed.

    11) saturated fats from medium chain and long chain sources are potent protectors against endotoxin. Fruit polyphenols, fibers and other compounds in the fruit are also potent protective against endotoxin.

    12) antibiotic use can cause dysbiosis and fungal issues as you mentioned earlier in the podcast, thus using terracycline can be an issue to clear endotoxin depending on dosage, length of use etc.
     
  5. Dobbler

    Dobbler Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    472
    Gender:
    Male
    Haidut really shines in this podcasts. I enjoy these so much.

    Im not surprised that he has left the forum mostly. Why should he spend energy arguing with people or defending himself, or read @Amazoniac s useless troll posts.
     
  6. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2018
    Messages:
    1,012
    Gender:
    Male
    Good thoughts !
     
  7. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    6,782
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Not Uganda
    :lol:

    You need to push your circulating prolactin levels higher to value their use. Those refresh the spirit better than leaving a generic message that he shines and you enjoy, the guy has read this multiple times and requires no thinking, it's predictable posts of this nature that make people lose interest. In Raj's case, he has to go through many of these, and although it's possible to desensitize to them, they still register as noise that get tedious.

    I also prefer to comment on his posts rather than interviews because of having more time to develop the ideas, with talking we has to be more forgiving because we don't always express the way we should have, unless it's something adsurb that refining how you convey it wouldn't make much difference on how flawed the concept are.

    The interview was heading to our dungeons anyway, rescuing it made a post that someone enjoyed possible.
     
  8. Dobbler

    Dobbler Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    472
    Gender:
    Male
    What makes a master is to be able to talk about something in person and teach it to someone with little previous information. Anyone can polish a post for hours and fact check it from ten places and what else, or post some random studies and bold some fancy parts that no-one understands like you often do, but try to put these pieces to bigger context and actually make sense, or even open up with your own words why this and this might have happened and/or talk about it live, i'd like to see you try..
     
  9. CLASH

    CLASH Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    795
    Gender:
    Male
    These aren't personal attacks so its unneccesary for him to defend himself. Its also not an argument. Some of the points he brought up are not clear and some are misleading. Its clear everyone values his work on this forum, so it becomes even more important to be clear with what you are saying so that you dont have a bunch of people going and trying to avoid all soluble fiber sources, using antibiotics to sterilize their guts, taking daily charcoal thinking that it will clear their gut issues itself and using serotonin antagonist chemicals to solve their health problems when that may not be addressing the root cause.

    I dont think its ever a good idea to just blatantly accept what someone is saying, without having a critical eye. Besides @haidut has often invited critical discussion. To imply that people shouldn't disagree with someone elses points and openly attempt to discuss them is antithetical to the idea of this forum.
     
  10. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    6,782
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Not Uganda
    Now your compliments are becoming specific and could touch his soul.

    I'm not trying to become a guru and never pretended to be one, I'm learning along and have always made this clear.

    It's inspiring to have people like him around, but I'm also not looking for rôle models at the moment, therefore for me it's about the information irrespective of how it wased elaborated. In this case, it doesn't matter if took ten years for an ignorant to write a post or a few minutes with just one hand by a knowledgeable semi-god; if either one contains interesting stuff that could not have been shared carelessly if facts were checked ten times, why demerit? You're after a master to be predigesting for you?

    This is one of the disadvantages of starting to associate the information shared by someone with their physical identity and behavior. Multimedia is unbeatable as long as it provides something that text can't do better. Other than practicality, people seek these interviews for humanization. They affect our understanding in questionable ways because what used to be accessible ideas laid out on a page with a greater margin for interpretation (risking misinterpretation at times), being easier for you to extract whatever you find useful, are now getting interfered by distractions and influenced by elements that was absent from texts (voice tone, facial expressions, clothing, background, etc), all in a challenging format to trace the information. You can't separate emotions from learning, but they're manipulable and so is your interpretation.

    This is why you want to see me try, can you tell how the information starts to become secondary? I have never been invited and I'm not sure if I would accept for not feeling prepared enough, but who knows..
     
  11. Kartoffel

    Kartoffel Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2017
    Messages:
    1,177
    Gender:
    Male
    You raise some interesting points, especially the difference between looking at fiber in isolation vs. whole foods. Nevertheless, I think it is also a mischaracterization to relativize some of the know bad effects by saying they will be offset by other compounds in natural foods. If gut dysbiosis is severe, tubers and whole fruits are going to be bad, never mind a few polyphenols. In my experience, the secret to some people's remarkable health seems to be their utter disregard for whole, fibrous foods. It's probably a thing that depends a lot on individual history and present situation, but many of the studies demonstrating the positive effects of polyphenols and such are also reductionist and ignore the broader picture. A couple of points that I would like to see you address/disprove:

    1. The literature pretty clearly shows that there is an important difference between soluble and insoluble fiber. Insoluble fibers protect against cancer and improve gur transit, while insoluble fibers have cancer promoting effects, and can lead to rapid liver degeneration when thrown into the wrong bacterial mix.

    2. Fiber from fruit isn't special or has special protective effects. In fact, Ray has warned about drinking OJ with pulp, and apes in the wild are often seen to suck the juice out of fruits and spit out the pulp.

    3. Can you show some of the references about the protective effects of soluble fiber against LPS?

    4. Do you have any evidence that honey leads to fructose malabsorption? I doubt that.

    5. You mention the protective effects of saturated fat. Saturated fats do two main things with regards to our microbiome. They drastically lower total bacterial count, and promote the growth of firmicutes, especially lactobacilli. Soluble fibers do the opposite, they raise total bacterial count, production of SCFA, and promote Bacteroides.

    6. No one should eat the skin of tubers, as they are highly toxic.
     
  12. Anders86

    Anders86 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2017
    Messages:
    210
    Gender:
    Male
    @Amazoniac `s low key Jerry Seinfield`ism is what this forum needs!
     
  13. stackz07

    stackz07 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    39
    Gender:
    Male
    I love when people ask for sources for claims, then make a ton of claims of their own with zero sources. We should have a rule, make a claim, link a source. So many people read others posts and think because it's made within a place they trust it must be true.
     
  14. shine

    shine Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Messages:
    161
    Gender:
    Male
    Where is your source for these atrocious assumptions?
     
  15. yerrag

    yerrag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2016
    Messages:
    3,801
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Manila
    Yeah. For sure.

    There will always be a Bermuda's Triangle in our discussion where certainty and a final definitive answer is not ever to be found. The topic of a sterile gut is an example. The topic of zero starch is another. The topic of avoiding all sorts of soluble fiber another. Very good arguments have been made on either side. There is often enough validity on one point that counters the other side's thesis without rendering the thesis invalid. It's hard to be firmly planted on a seemingly ideological/philosophical divide. In such murky and fuzzy situations, I would rely on one's own good judgment especially as it involves his own context and experience. It doesn't have to an all or nothing choice. This is how we deal with uncertainty in real life situations. It isn't binary. Plenty of shades of grey. We preface statements with "most" and "often" and avoid "always," we don't have the luxury of enough experimentation to guarantee what we believe applies categorically to everyone's contexts.
     
  16. Lokzo

    Lokzo Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,121
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Naturopath
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Listening now and LOVING it.

    We appreciate you @haidut !!
     
Loading...