Is There A Hidden Subliminal Message In Ray's Work ?

[Nemo]

interesting. can you clarify what does Ray mean by starches does that include rice, potato, corn, oats, bread? i think he said nixtamalized corn is his favorite starch source? in yesterdays podcast he said he ate a cheese filled taco within the last week. im not sure if that was an exception, or if it was a nixtamalized corn taco so he eats it or what.

Yes, he sure does praise that nixtamalized corn. If I remember correctly, he doesn't consider that starch. So I'll bet he enjoyed a real taco.

so you stopped all starches, all potato, rice, breads, etc? whats your daily diet?

All starches stopped, including all potato, rice, breads, etc., except for one small homemade chocolate chip cookie per day. I sure do love that cookie.

Wake-up is skim milk and OJ, breakfast is eggs and marmalade (and watermelon if I can get it), sip sugared skim milk all morning, lunch is a few ounces of burger with a mountainous slab of jello and fruit (lately cherries). Sometimes I put spices on the burger to pretend it's pizza or a taco. Sip orange juice or sugared skim milk all afternoon. Snack is skim milk and small homemade chocolate chip cookie. Dinner is cheese and fruit. Carrot salad after lunch as needed. An oyster every morning and another every night. 1 ounce of liver a day, six days a week, usually at lunch.

In one podcast, Ray stressed that it was important to mix things up, to keep your diet creative and fresh. Then as an example he mentioned occasionally eating your oysters with cheese. I laughed.

Ray has said potatoes can be allergenic for many people.
by the way, if you look on the mainstream autoimmune healing related websites they will mention that tomato is even more dangerous than gluten, more harmful and inflammatory than gluten for autoimmune sufferers. they also advise against nightshades like eggplant and potato.

Yeah, have to keep tomato consumption very low. and I've stopped all veggies How I used to love moussaka.

its interesting in yesterdays podcast Ray said that he prefers olive oil to coconut oil for the carrot salad, as does danny roddy. ray said that coconut oil has many allergenic compounds that dont get removed even with extensive refining because it is a nut/seed oil...

I wonder if coconut oil should also be avoided for people with slower metabolisms more susceptible to food allergens? Ray said it can still have allergenic properties even after extensive refining. and this refined coconut oil is hard to find to begin with. coconut oil looks very good on paper, its almost pure saturated fat, basically never expires even when its unrefined, and doesnt require refrigeration. but even then, a faster metabolism just allows you to tolerate allergenic foods better, there is still some harm there. like gluten supposedly causes inflammation in everyone who eats it. so Im thinking if its better to just avoid breads, potatoes, rice, coconut oil, regardless of how well your metabolism is?

I think one of the benefits of avoiding starches is that you tend to use fats on starches, whether it's butter or coconut oil or olive oil, and a lower fat diet is better. I probably use a half tsp of coconut oil to cook my eggs in the morning and a little butter in that cookie. Other than that, it's just the fat in the egg yolks or cheese or those few ounces of burger.

what are your thoughts on "sprouted spelt flour" used in many Amish bakery products? apparently the sprouting process leads to less gluten/phytic acid/anti nutrients and more vitamins, better digestibility.

I have tried sprouted flour whoopie pies for example and they taste just like the supermarket ones!

Ray said sprouted grains weren't really starch. So if I were eating bread, that's the way I'd go. Of course, wheat still adds phosporous (a few hundred mg to only a few mg calcium) so if you eat bread, now you have to drink more milk to get your calcium:phosphorous ratio back up.

 

[Dr. B]

Yes, he sure does praise that nixtamalized corn. If I remember correctly, he doesn't consider that starch. So I'll bet he enjoyed a real taco.



All starches stopped, including all potato, rice, breads, etc., except for one small homemade chocolate chip cookie per day. I sure do love that cookie.

Wake-up is skim milk and OJ, breakfast is eggs and marmalade (and watermelon if I can get it), sip sugared skim milk all morning, lunch is a few ounces of burger with a mountainous slab of jello and fruit (lately cherries). Sometimes I put spices on the burger to pretend it's pizza or a taco. Sip orange juice or sugared skim milk all afternoon. Snack is skim milk and small homemade chocolate chip cookie. Dinner is cheese and fruit. Carrot salad after lunch as needed. An oyster every morning and another every night. 1 ounce of liver a day, six days a week, usually at lunch.

In one podcast, Ray stressed that it was important to mix things up, to keep your diet creative and fresh. Then as an example he mentioned occasionally eating your oysters with cheese. I laughed.



Yeah, have to keep tomato consumption very low. and I've stopped all veggies How I used to love moussaka.



I think one of the benefits of avoiding starches is that you tend to use fats on starches, whether it's butter or coconut oil or olive oil, and a lower fat diet is better. I probably use a half tsp of coconut oil to cook my eggs in the morning and a little butter in that cookie. Other than that, it's just the fat in the egg yolks or cheese or those few ounces of burger.



Ray said sprouted grains weren't really starch. So if I were eating bread, that's the way I'd go. Of course, wheat still adds phosporous (a few hundred mg to only a few mg calcium) so if you eat bread, now you have to drink more milk to get your calcium:phosphorous ratio back up.

interesting, what does he consider nixtamalized corn to be? is it closer to a fruit or sugar in terms of how it digests?
very interesting.
now with the Amish farms ive seen two options. some products just say white spelt flour in the ingredients whereas others actually say sprouted spelt flour.

regarding cookies, i think whole foods bakery has the best cookies ive had. they label it brown butter chocolate chip cookie. it has good ingredients except they do use iron fortified flour in it. youre getting a few milligrams added iron from that cookie. im not sure how they make it so well. it far exceeds any other supermarket or restaurant chocolate chip cookies like panera, mcdonalds, starbucks etc. its better than bang cookies as well. I tried bang cookies and was really disappointed. was expecting a very tasteful cookie but i didnt really like their flavor.

where are you getting your skim milk and what kind of OJ/eggs are you using? if the OJ is not organic its likely underripe and even has pesticides in it. eggs, if the chickens are soy or grain fed it affects their eggs much more than cows are affected when fed corn/soy/grain. the milk if it has added vitamins will have added polysorbate 80 and propylene glycol which are both carcinogenic.

what do you think about tomato ketchup? i imagine because of all the refining, its much safer than eating fresh raw tomatoes, but maybe still allergenic. what should be done if youre getting burgers outside? just stick to mayo and mustard only? mayo usually has PUFA but i imagine its minor in a small amount mayo. is mustard sauce also allergenic since it comes from a seed? its apparently 0 calories, no fats or carbs...

how much milk are you drinking per day?

based on rays recent comments do you think people with slower/average metabolisms especially should avoid coconut oil and use butter, ghee, lamb/beef fat or olive oil?

what kind of cheese/OJ are you using? ray also said cheese and orange juice are often made using microbial enzymes ti process the cheese or liquidy the pulp in OJ and he said these are severely allergenic. i think he said the enzymes are even more allergenic than citric acid or something else... basically the cheese needs to be made using animal rennet. i think when Ray uses the term allergenic he means inflammatory?

 

[boris]

interesting. can you clarify what does Ray mean by starches does that include rice, potato, corn, oats, bread? i think he said nixtamalized corn is his favorite starch source? in yesterdays podcast he said he ate a cheese filled taco within the last week. im not sure if that was an exception, or if it was a nixtamalized corn taco so he eats it or what.

so you stopped all starches, all potato, rice, breads, etc? whats your daily diet?

Ray has said potatoes can be allergenic for many people.
by the way, if you look on the mainstream autoimmune healing related websites they will mention that tomato is even more dangerous than gluten, more harmful and inflammatory than gluten for autoimmune sufferers. they also advise against nightshades like eggplant and potato.

its interesting in yesterdays podcast Ray said that he prefers olive oil to coconut oil for the carrot salad, as does danny roddy. ray said that coconut oil has many allergenic compounds that dont get removed even with extensive refining because it is a nut/seed oil. he stated olive oil has many anti inflammatory properties/antioxidants since its a fruit based oil, and its safe even in an unrefined form. its interesting they both now prefer olive oil despite olive oil being mostly MUFA, with some sfa/pufa as well. i think out of 14g, olive oil is 12g MUFA and 1g sfa/1g pufa. I remember in previous podcasts and quotes Peat said he prefers olive oil on the salad due to its taste, and he limits it to a few teaspoons due to the pufa content but yesterday was the first I heard of him talk about specific benefits to olive oil, which some of the pro Mediterranean diet people have mentioned before but I hadnt heard Ray comment on.

I wonder if coconut oil should also be avoided for people with slower metabolisms more susceptible to food allergens? Ray said it can still have allergenic properties even after extensive refining. and this refined coconut oil is hard to find to begin with. coconut oil looks very good on paper, its almost pure saturated fat, basically never expires even when its unrefined, and doesnt require refrigeration. but even then, a faster metabolism just allows you to tolerate allergenic foods better, there is still some harm there. like gluten supposedly causes inflammation in everyone who eats it. so Im thinking if its better to just avoid breads, potatoes, rice, coconut oil, regardless of how well your metabolism is?

what are your thoughts on "sprouted spelt flour" used in many Amish bakery products? apparently the sprouting process leads to less gluten/phytic acid/anti nutrients and more vitamins, better digestibility.

I have tried sprouted flour whoopie pies for example and they taste just like the supermarket ones!

how much PUFA was in those hashbrowns and what kind of oil was it? the hash browns do soak up a lot of oil so they may have a lot. how much of them were you eating.
some pufa seem safer than others for instance soybean oil has all the phytoestrogens and other issues...corn oil has allergenic issues... peanut oil is inflammatory etc. i think if you are eating pufa something like sunflower or canola may be safer.

Everyone is different. You need to try and judge what works for you. Something can be highly allergenic to one person, but do nothing to another. I never had a problem with coconut oil, even with unrefined coconut oil. But I get bad reactions to some olive oils. I never heard of anyone having a grape allergy, but I get the worst allergic reactions to grapes.

Coconut oil increases metabolism

Coconut Oil

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Peat has often spoken about the anti cancer properties of olive oil and has also recommended it for fighting off h.pylori infections. He has said 1-2 teaspoons daily is safe in regards to the PUFA content.

 

[Ritchie]

Could you quote where he says that properly cooked starch causes persorption? I never read or heard him say that.

“When starch is well cooked, and eaten with some fat and the essential nutrients, it’s safe"

Because he saw a study that proved starch persorption and it accounts for a lot of inflammatory effects of starch a lot of us have run into.

He said he hasn't eaten starches in over 20 years, since he read that persorption study.

The confusion here is illustrative and speaks to the topic of this thread... Noone eats raw starch (apart from maybe raw cereals), so why even bother discussing it, even if there was a random study that used it in mice and found persorption? Peat has said multiple times that he doesn't eat starch based on that study. Which means he's extropolated the findings from the raw starch mouse study to humans eating cooked starch with no evidence of such, hence the confusion. And, in line with the thread, the possible subliminal challenge to think for oneself on the topic.
I do understand that there are anecdotes of people feeling better on no starch for a time, but there are anecdotes of all sorts of things from people feeling amazing on a keto diet to people feeling amazing fasting, to people feeling amazing and alleviating issue on a fruitarian diet and so on.. Anecdotes aren't evidence.

The use of fibers like carrots and sauerkraut and bamboo shoots are well-known in traditional medicine for doing exactly what Ray recommends them for.

I mean the use of fibre in general is well known in medicine and nutrition for what Ray recommends it for.. eg. clearing out excess estrogen, clearing out endotoxin, bacteria, and so forth, clearing serotonin in the gut, etc. It's also curious that Ray holds quite a strong stance on betacarotene and its claimed negative effect on thyroid, yet recommends to eat daily the vegetable that is highest in betacarotene. Yes it can be argued, and there is some research to back it up, that betacarotene from cooked carrots is more readily absorbed than raw, however it is still quite highly absorbed from raw regardless.
Point is there are good and bad things about lots of foods once you break them down in an isolated way, and thinking about it critically and in context is important. Which, as the thread suggests, is possibly what Ray encourages people to do both implicitly and explicitly.

 

[Nemo]

interesting, what does he consider nixtamalized corn to be? is it closer to a fruit or sugar in terms of how it digests?
very interesting.

Good question.

now with the Amish farms ive seen two options. some products just say white spelt flour in the ingredients whereas others actually say sprouted spelt flour.

Sprouted is more Peaty.

regarding cookies, i think whole foods bakery has the best cookies ive had. they label it brown butter chocolate chip cookie. it has good ingredients except they do use iron fortified flour in it. youre getting a few milligrams added iron from that cookie. im not sure how they make it so well. it far exceeds any other supermarket or restaurant chocolate chip cookies like panera, mcdonalds, starbucks etc. its better than bang cookies as well. I tried bang cookies and was really disappointed. was expecting a very tasteful cookie but i didnt really like their flavor.

I can endorse your review of Whole Foods brown butter chocolate chip cookies.

where are you getting your skim milk and what kind of OJ/eggs are you using? if the OJ is not organic its likely underripe and even has pesticides in it. eggs, if the chickens are soy or grain fed it affects their eggs much more than cows are affected when fed corn/soy/grain. the milk if it has added vitamins will have added polysorbate 80 and propylene glycol which are both carcinogenic.

Strauss or St. Benoit milk from Whole Foods. I take the cream off the top of their whole milk. My husband and dog eat the cream.

Organic 365 OJ from Whole Foods, or in season their fresh-squeezed or my fresh-squeezed.

Vital Farms pastured eggs from Whole Food. Hard to believe they're not feeding at least partly soy and grain.

what do you think about tomato ketchup? i imagine because of all the refining, its much safer than eating fresh raw tomatoes, but maybe still allergenic. what should be done if youre getting burgers outside? just stick to mayo and mustard only? mayo usually has PUFA but i imagine its minor in a small amount mayo. is mustard sauce also allergenic since it comes from a seed? its apparently 0 calories, no fats or carbs...

I've not eaten a restaurant meal since I got home from the hospital. Not even a burger.

how much milk are you drinking per day?

About a quart of milk plus 2 oz cheese.

based on rays recent comments do you think people with slower/average metabolisms especially should avoid coconut oil and use butter, ghee, lamb/beef fat or olive oil?

My elderly dog won't eat raw beef liver anymore so I cook an ounce for him every day. I also cook an egg for him every day. He won't eat the liver or egg if I cook it in coconut oil but he'll eat it if I cook it in butter or beef fat. I have pondered that.

what kind of cheese/OJ are you using? ray also said cheese and orange juice are often made using microbial enzymes ti process the cheese or liquidy the pulp in OJ and he said these are severely allergenic. i think he said the enzymes are even more allergenic than citric acid or something else... basically the cheese needs to be made using animal rennet. i think when Ray uses the term allergenic he means inflammatory?

Cheddar, that kind from Ireland. Sometimes a California cheddar. I stopped buying anything else because its saltiness helped me sleep at night. Now I'm like Pavlov's dog, a bite of that cheese is like a sleeping pill.

I buy pulp-free. I hope they didn't liquify the pulp but I'm not absolutely sure.

I don't think I have an allergic reaction to either.

 

[Nemo]

The confusion here is illustrative and speaks to the topic of this thread... Noone eats raw starch (apart from maybe raw cereals), so why even bother discussing it, even if there was a random study that used it in mice and found persorption? Peat has said multiple times that he doesn't eat starch based on that study. Which means he's extropolated the findings from the raw starch mouse study to humans eating cooked starch with no evidence of such, hence the confusion. And, in line with the thread, the possible subliminal challenge to think for oneself on the topic.
I do understand that there are anecdotes of people feeling better on no starch for a time, but there are anecdotes of all sorts of things from people feeling amazing on a keto diet to people feeling amazing fasting, to people feeling amazing and alleviating issue on a fruitarian diet and so on.. Anecdotes aren't evidence.

The confusion is indeed illustrative. You know nothing of what Ray actually said or how he came to his conclusions, yet you spout off erroneous conclusions as if you did.

You didn't even take the 60 seconds it took me to find Ray quotes on persorption and the study he read.

Here is Ray on persorption:

THE PHENOMENON OF PERSORPTION: PERSORPTION, DISSEMINATION, AND ELIMINATION OF MICROPARTICLES – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

That link also includes links to five studies of persorption.

Ray didn't just read a study. He read the study then he experimented on himself, a perfectly valid method of experimentation:

“Around 1988 I read Gerhard Volkheimer’s persorption article, and after doing some experiments with tortillas and masa, I stopped eating all starch except for those, then eventually I stopped those. Besides grains of starch entering the blood stream, lymph, and cerebral spinal fluid, starch feeds bacteria, increasing endotoxin and serotonin.”

So he observed the effects of starch on himself, and I observed the effects of starch on myself. We both concluded starch was bad for us.

I did an experiment about three weeks ago in which I ate starch again for three days in a row. I ate about 3 ounces of starch with lunch. One day it was rice, the other days were potatoes. I already knew that undercooked starch was supposedly the big problem, so I overcooked the starch in the presence of plenty of water.

By the 4th morning, I was so stiff again that I could hardly move. I was in too much pain to sleep at night. It took four full days to recover to pain-free enough to sleep.

Nothing else about my diet changed. That is a valid experiment.

And I'm not the only one. I can't remember who it was here at the forums, but she was on thyroid forever and it made no difference in her MS. Then she stopped eating starch, and immediately started regaining muscle strength and seeing other MS symptoms lessen.

Further, these anecdotes are indeed evidence. I majored in biochemistry. I did graduate work in biochemistry and won international awards for my research. Only a dimwit thinks that peer-reviewed studies are the only evidence or even the best evidence. Observation is science too.

And I'm not talking about "feeling better" over some short time span. I'm talking about eliminating cancer, acidosis, high blood sugar and an MS-like illness that was probably MS though I never got it diagnosed.

There is nothing worse than potato eaters and carnivores defending their diets.

 

[Dr. B]

The confusion here is illustrative and speaks to the topic of this thread... Noone eats raw starch (apart from maybe raw cereals), so why even bother discussing it, even if there was a random study that used it in mice and found persorption? Peat has said multiple times that he doesn't eat starch based on that study. Which means he's extropolated the findings from the raw starch mouse study to humans eating cooked starch with no evidence of such, hence the confusion. And, in line with the thread, the possible subliminal challenge to think for oneself on the topic.
I do understand that there are anecdotes of people feeling better on no starch for a time, but there are anecdotes of all sorts of things from people feeling amazing on a keto diet to people feeling amazing fasting, to people feeling amazing and alleviating issue on a fruitarian diet and so on.. Anecdotes aren't evidence.


I mean the use of fibre in general is well known in medicine and nutrition for what Ray recommends it for.. eg. clearing out excess estrogen, clearing out endotoxin, bacteria, and so forth, clearing serotonin in the gut, etc. It's also curious that Ray holds quite a strong stance on betacarotene and its claimed negative effect on thyroid, yet recommends to eat daily the vegetable that is highest in betacarotene. Yes it can be argued, and there is some research to back it up, that betacarotene from cooked carrots is more readily absorbed than raw, however it is still quite highly absorbed from raw regardless.
Point is there are good and bad things about lots of foods once you break them down in an isolated way, and thinking about it critically and in context is important. Which, as the thread suggests, is possibly what Ray encourages people to do both implicitly and explicitly.

starch seems undoubtedly inflammatory, especially if you are doing the iron fortified vitamin fortified ones. i havent seen everything peats said on starch but i think he has said sourdough bread is better than regular, the comment of fat helping with starches, cooking them properly, etc, and his story of eating white rice daily with coconut oil.
starchy foods seem tougher to digest. yes i think peats said to limit the carrot salad to just one carrot a day due to the carotene.

The confusion is indeed illustrative. You know nothing of what Ray actually said or how he came to his conclusions, yet you spout off erroneous conclusions as if you did.

You didn't even take the 60 seconds it took me to find Ray quotes on persorption and the study he read.

Here is Ray on persorption:

THE PHENOMENON OF PERSORPTION: PERSORPTION, DISSEMINATION, AND ELIMINATION OF MICROPARTICLES – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

That link also includes links to five studies of persorption.

Ray didn't just read a study. He read the study then he experimented on himself, a perfectly valid method of experimentation:

“Around 1988 I read Gerhard Volkheimer’s persorption article, and after doing some experiments with tortillas and masa, I stopped eating all starch except for those, then eventually I stopped those. Besides grains of starch entering the blood stream, lymph, and cerebral spinal fluid, starch feeds bacteria, increasing endotoxin and serotonin.”

So he observed the effects of starch on himself, and I observed the effects of starch on myself. We both concluded starch was bad for us.

I did an experiment about three weeks ago in which I ate starch again for three days in a row. I ate about 3 ounces of starch with lunch. One day it was rice, the other days were potatoes. I already knew that undercooked starch was supposedly the big problem, so I overcooked the starch in the presence of plenty of water.

By the 4th morning, I was so stiff again that I could hardly move. I was in too much pain to sleep at night. It took four full days to recover to pain-free enough to sleep.

Nothing else about my diet changed. That is a valid experiment.

And I'm not the only one. I can't remember who it was here at the forums, but she was on thyroid forever and it made no difference in her MS. Then she stopped eating starch, and immediately started regaining muscle strength and seeing other MS symptoms lessen.

Further, these anecdotes are indeed evidence. I majored in biochemistry. I did graduate work in biochemistry and won international awards for my research. Only a dimwit thinks that peer-reviewed studies are the only evidence or even the best evidence. Observation is science too.

And I'm not talking about "feeling better" over some short time span. I'm talking about eliminating cancer, acidosis, high blood sugar and an MS-like illness that was probably MS though I never got it diagnosed.

There is nothing worse than potato eaters and carnivores defending their diets.

thats interesting. do you think the rice/potato being non organic could have been the cause or were they organic. thats interesting even white rice caused symptoms? is white rice an artificial modern day nutrient like white sugar? i think similar to sugar it has no vitamins, but its pure glucose instead of fructose glucose mix. do you eat added sugar at all besides the cookie?
and, based on your experiments does this confirm casein is tolerable for people with cancer/autoimmunt type symptoms? on many of the autoimmune sites, they have articles saying casein is like gluten and causes inflammation and has to be avoided. i wonder if its maybe just A1 casein or if the symptoms people get from diary are the inflammatory added vitamins/fillers.
by the way for some reason the carnivore and bodybuilder type people prefer sweet potato over potato. Ray prefers regular potato due to no carotene. i think sweet potato can even have some phytoestrogens? not sure why its preferred by some. i think theres something in it.

how are you making your daily cookie, are you sprouting the flour or how come that isnt causing symptoms?

 

[Dr. B]

Everyone is different. You need to try and judge what works for you. Something can be highly allergenic to one person, but do nothing to another. I never had a problem with coconut oil, even with unrefined coconut oil. But I get bad reactions to some olive oils. I never heard of anyone having a grape allergy, but I get the worst allergic reactions to grapes.

Coconut oil increases metabolism

Coconut Oil

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Peat has often spoken about the anti cancer properties of olive oil and has also recommended it for fighting off h.pylori infections. He has said 1-2 teaspoons daily is safe in regards to the PUFA content.

yes ive read that article of Peats. interesting thing was yesterdays podcast Peat and Danny talked about why they prefer olive oil to coconut oil in the carrot salad. they both feel much better with olive oil. peat claims even unrefined oil is rarely allergenic whereas highly refined coconut oil can be highly allergenic (i wonder if cooking the coconut oil makes it more tolerable)? olive oil in the us i have heard is risky and can be adulterated with other oils.
what do you think about olive leaf extract supplements? they have like 500mg oleupurein for instance and normally youd have to drink a liter of olive oil to get that much.

Good question.



Sprouted is more Peaty.



I can endorse your review of Whole Foods brown butter chocolate chip cookies.



Strauss or St. Benoit milk from Whole Foods. I take the cream off the top of their whole milk. My husband and dog eat the cream.

Organic 365 OJ from Whole Foods, or in season their fresh-squeezed or my fresh-squeezed.

Vital Farms pastured eggs from Whole Food. Hard to believe they're not feeding at least partly soy and grain.

interesting. that whole foods organic pulp free is good, seems sweeter and better than even their fresh squeezed organic OJ which is also very pricy!

those milks look great. i use one called "family farmstead" 100% grass fed 100% A2. i think its jersey or jersey guernsey mix cows as it has a golden color.

thats interesting. the coconut oil doesnt taste as good on meat items or eggs imo, as butter and beef fat.

do you ever eat ketchup? i think its safer than tomato, not sure how much safer.

somewhere on here or another site there was a huge post of different OJ brands, and whole foods, costco, and even one of the non organic brands i think simply orange, said they didnt use the enzymes. but that was years ago. the whole foods and costco organic OJ taste very similar, both are mexico/usa sourced.

 

[boris]

The confusion here is illustrative and speaks to the topic of this thread... Noone eats raw starch (apart from maybe raw cereals), so why even bother discussing it, even if there was a random study that used it in mice and found persorption? Peat has said multiple times that he doesn't eat starch based on that study. Which means he's extropolated the findings from the raw starch mouse study to humans eating cooked starch with no evidence of such, hence the confusion. And, in line with the thread, the possible subliminal challenge to think for oneself on the topic.
I do understand that there are anecdotes of people feeling better on no starch for a time, but there are anecdotes of all sorts of things from people feeling amazing on a keto diet to people feeling amazing fasting, to people feeling amazing and alleviating issue on a fruitarian diet and so on.. Anecdotes aren't evidence.


I mean the use of fibre in general is well known in medicine and nutrition for what Ray recommends it for.. eg. clearing out excess estrogen, clearing out endotoxin, bacteria, and so forth, clearing serotonin in the gut, etc. It's also curious that Ray holds quite a strong stance on betacarotene and its claimed negative effect on thyroid, yet recommends to eat daily the vegetable that is highest in betacarotene. Yes it can be argued, and there is some research to back it up, that betacarotene from cooked carrots is more readily absorbed than raw, however it is still quite highly absorbed from raw regardless.
Point is there are good and bad things about lots of foods once you break them down in an isolated way, and thinking about it critically and in context is important. Which, as the thread suggests, is possibly what Ray encourages people to do both implicitly and explicitly.

I think it's good to discuss it because it would apply to undercooked starch. I ate undercooked pasta "al dente" for many years and so do probably millions of people. The persorption issue is why Peat recommends to cook potatos for at least 45 minutes. He still eats starch himself, but probably not as a main carb source. Just yesterday he talked on Danny's podcast about eating a taco or something like that.

 

[boris]

@Mr.Bollox I think the topic on the podcast started when Danny said that his digestion has been better than ever when eating the carrot with olive oil. Maybe because it has very special anti-bacterial properties. I drank about a 1/5 glass of olive oil daily for a while to counter h.pylori and it had amazing effects. It felt like a big dose of pharma antibiotics without the side effects.

 

[Dr. B]

@Mr.Bollox I think the topic on the podcast started when Danny said that his digestion has been better than ever when eating the carrot with olive oil. Maybe because it has very special anti-bacterial properties. I drank about a 1/5 glass of olive oil daily for a while to counter h.pylori and it had amazing effects. It felt like a big dose of pharma antibiotics without the side effects.

what did you look out for, was it an extra virgin olive oil? what about olive leaf extract apparently that also has antibiotic effects...

 

[Dr. B]

I think it's good to discuss it because it would apply to undercooked starch. I ate undercooked pasta "al dente" for many years and so do probably millions of people. The persorption issue is why Peat recommends to cook potatos for at least 45 minutes. He still eats starch himself, but probably not as a main carb source. Just yesterday he talked on Danny's podcast about eating a taco or something like that.

someone claimed Ray doesnt consider nixtamalized corn and sprouted spelt flour to be starches

 

[boris]

someone claimed Ray doesnt consider nixtamalized corn and sprouted spelt flour to be starches

Ray said nixtamalized corn is "unlike any of the other grain starches", I don't know if he said that he doesn't consider it a starch, but it's still a starch. You can recognize a properly prepared starch (like a tortilla), when you get a sugary taste in your mouth from chewing it. That's the amylase in the saliva breaking it down.

Regarding the olive oil, yes it was extra virgin! It was some trusted brand that was unlikely to be cut with other oils. Never tried olive leaf extract.

 

[michael94]

No I don't think it's subliminal, thats just what he believes for better or worse.

 

[Ritchie]

The confusion is indeed illustrative. You know nothing of what Ray actually said or how he came to his conclusions, yet you spout off erroneous conclusions as if you did.

You didn't even take the 60 seconds it took me to find Ray quotes on persorption and the study he read.

Here is Ray on persorption:

THE PHENOMENON OF PERSORPTION: PERSORPTION, DISSEMINATION, AND ELIMINATION OF MICROPARTICLES – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

That link also includes links to five studies of persorption.

Ray didn't just read a study. He read the study then he experimented on himself, a perfectly valid method of experimentation:

“Around 1988 I read Gerhard Volkheimer’s persorption article, and after doing some experiments with tortillas and masa, I stopped eating all starch except for those, then eventually I stopped those. Besides grains of starch entering the blood stream, lymph, and cerebral spinal fluid, starch feeds bacteria, increasing endotoxin and serotonin.”

So he observed the effects of starch on himself, and I observed the effects of starch on myself. We both concluded starch was bad for us.

I did an experiment about three weeks ago in which I ate starch again for three days in a row. I ate about 3 ounces of starch with lunch. One day it was rice, the other days were potatoes. I already knew that undercooked starch was supposedly the big problem, so I overcooked the starch in the presence of plenty of water.

By the 4th morning, I was so stiff again that I could hardly move. I was in too much pain to sleep at night. It took four full days to recover to pain-free enough to sleep.

Nothing else about my diet changed. That is a valid experiment.

And I'm not the only one. I can't remember who it was here at the forums, but she was on thyroid forever and it made no difference in her MS. Then she stopped eating starch, and immediately started regaining muscle strength and seeing other MS symptoms lessen.

Further, these anecdotes are indeed evidence. I majored in biochemistry. I did graduate work in biochemistry and won international awards for my research. Only a dimwit thinks that peer-reviewed studies are the only evidence or even the best evidence. Observation is science too.

And I'm not talking about "feeling better" over some short time span. I'm talking about eliminating cancer, acidosis, high blood sugar and an MS-like illness that was probably MS though I never got it diagnosed.

There is nothing worse than potato eaters and carnivores defending their diets.

C'mon mate, I've read Ray extensively and i am quite familiar with what Ray has said and how he came to his conclusions, hence why i'm saying what i'm saying.... You forgot to quote the rest of what Ray said in that link you provided:

“Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications….”

This is exactly what I've said he said and based his position on. Thanks for proving my point. As far as the other studies in that link, I have to assume you didn't even look through them because they certainly don't lend anymore support to the position.. One of them used latex microparticles in rats to find persorption. How is that even relevant lol?? The other used fluorescent latex microparticles in rats ?!? Another reference is just a paper discussing Volkheimer's findings and what could be interesting for further research.. and the other two are papers by Volkenheimer discussing the implications of his rat studies that Ray quoted above.

So no mate, none of that gets anywhere near showing that cooked starch is persorbed into the bloodstream at any higher rate than any thing else consumed. Are you aware that Volkheimer also found that fruit fibres are persorbed? Same with the cellulose fibre in carrots.. and subsequent research by followers of his work found that the same result happened with meat and liver fibres when consumed, which were found to be persorbed at a similar rate ([The Herbst-Volkheimer effect] - PubMed). Mind you this is all very questionable science mainly done on rats so don't go cutting out fruit, carrots and liver just yet
I also remember @Travis posting studies showing milk protein persorption.

As for the anecdotes.. jump on a keto forum, or a carnivore forum, or a vegan forum, or a fruitarian forum, or an all potato diet forum, or a 10 day fasting forum... All of them you will find anecdotal testimony of people who have cured this and that disease, cured their cancer, cured this and that ailment, cured depression and anxiety, cured dermatitis, cured hair loss, cured arthritis, etc etc. I'm sure you see the point.

Having said that, I respect your experience and what works for you and thats great that you are healing yourself.

 

[Nemo]

interesting. that whole foods organic pulp free is good, seems sweeter and better than even their fresh squeezed organic OJ which is also very pricy!

I agree. It's sweeter than anything else I can find around here except when California valencias are in season.

those milks look great. i use one called "family farmstead" 100% grass fed 100% A2. i think its jersey or jersey guernsey mix cows as it has a golden color.

That sounds like St. Benoit. A2, Jersey, I think grassfed (definitely golden). So delicious.

thats interesting. the coconut oil doesnt taste as good on meat items or eggs imo, as butter and beef fat.

Agree!

do you ever eat ketchup? i think its safer than tomato, not sure how much safer.

A little, sometimes. No problems from a little.

 

[EmperorOfMan]

i was kind of shocked when he un ironically was talking about the astrology stuff the other day

 

[mayku-T-meelo]

“Around 1988 I read Gerhard Volkheimer’s persorption article, and after doing some experiments with tortillas and masa, I stopped eating all starch except for those, then eventually I stopped those. Besides grains of starch entering the blood stream, lymph, and cerebral spinal fluid, starch feeds bacteria, increasing endotoxin and serotonin.”

“Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications….”

Here he says that that Volkheimer observed the same process in his medical students.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QpUJ8NidnE&t=2220s

 

[mayku-T-meelo]

Somewhere else he says that the presorption depends on the level of irritation of the gut. As for carrots and beta-carotene I think he mentions that the conversion to retinol depends on the thyroid function to begin with.

 

[sladerunner69]

Could Ray Peat intentionally and on purpose adopt outrageous positions on some sensible topics like Aids (not being caused by HIV), iodine (refuses to look at the statistics of Japanese thyroid diseases), melatonin supplements (says it's bad for health) , all of them positions easily disproved in my opinion, in order to send a subliminal message to his readers "Don't trust anyone's word, not even mine's, without checking by yourself the evidence first ?"

His recent comments about Stalin being an interesting man are so disturbing and hard to believe, I've come to the conclusion Ray intentionally decredibilizes himself in order to take off his back some of the heat associated with his discoveries.

Thoughts ?

Not quite, I just think he adopts the more extreme stances on some issues to remind people that the not all issues are black and white, and there is good and bad in pretty much everything. So in a sense he is overcompensating to bring the scale of public opinion back to equilibrium, even if it means discrediting himself in the process. The man clearly has very little in the way of ego and would willingly sacrifice all of his credibility for his idea of the greater good, I bet.